Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[VashHash]

Always two... in the groin holster ...for aesthetics...

Fixed that for you

[chuck_roxas45]

Always two... in the groin holster ...for aesthetics...

Fixed that for you

And I still remember the butt crack carry. :D

[James Y]

Escalating conflict, physical touching leads to knife response.

I don’t know which country this occurred in.

This video has no martial arts content in it; but it has a LOT to do with martial artists AND non-martial artists alike. It’s a lesson in the fact that instigating or willingly getting into fights is ALWAYS a risk, no matter who you are, even if you’re bigger than the other person. You never know what someone is capable of, or how far they are willing to go. Fighting should always be a last resort, when no other options (especially avoidance) are no longer open to you.

While I am not condoning the response that occurs here, the apparent suddenness of the attack is worth noting. Some people in this video’s comments section called the stabber a coward. To put it kindly, that is stupid thinking. Anyone who thinks like that is inserting a ‘sport fighting’ mentality into a real-world, non-sporting situation. That mentality is common, especially among young men who either practice or simply watch a lot of fighting sports, such as MMA, wrestling, etc., but have no concept of actual street violence outside of a grade school tussle.

Earlier in this thread, I gave real-life examples of combat sports athletes (four different MMA fighters/practitioners, and one AAU wrestling champion) who were either killed or severely beaten on the street while applying a sport fighting mindset against untrained but armed (and/or multiple) people who did NOT have a sporting mindset. There are MANY other, similar incidences that have occurred out there. Expecting a stranger on the street, whether he/they are an attacker(s), or someone that you are picking a fight with, or accepting a fight with, to play by your ‘rules’ and fight you fair and square is delusional, especially if they are used to street violence. All someone like that cares about is winning, surviving at all costs, or getting whatever it is they want. Such people have a different type of mindset from those who come from a different background and have the ‘everything is sports’ mindset. It’s not about which type of mindset is more or less ethical; it’s about being aware that it’s the way things are.

https://youtu.be/Iewaqc0cK2k

Jim

[OrangeShoes]

Escalating conflict, physical touching leads to knife response.

I don’t know which country this occurred in.

This video has no martial arts content in it; but it has a LOT to do with martial artists AND non-martial artists alike. It’s a lesson in the fact that instigating or willingly getting into fights is ALWAYS a risk, no matter who you are, even if you’re bigger than the other person. You never know what someone is capable of, or how far they are willing to go. Fighting should always be a last resort, when no other options (especially avoidance) are no longer open to you.

While I am not condoning the response that occurs here, the apparent suddenness of the attack is worth noting. Some people in this video’s comments section called the stabber a coward. To put it kindly, that is stupid thinking. Anyone who thinks like that is inserting a ‘sport fighting’ mentality into a real-world, non-sporting situation. That mentality is common, especially among young men who either practice or simply watch a lot of fighting sports, such as MMA, wrestling, etc., but have no concept of actual street violence outside of a grade school tussle.

Earlier in this thread, I gave real-life examples of combat sports athletes (four different MMA fighters/practitioners, and one AAU wrestling champion) who were either killed or severely beaten on the street while applying a sport fighting mindset against untrained but armed (and/or multiple) people who did NOT have a sporting mindset. There are MANY other, similar incidences that have occurred out there. Expecting a stranger on the street, whether he/they are an attacker(s), or someone that you are picking a fight with, or accepting a fight with, to play by your ‘rules’ and fight you fair and square is delusional, especially if they are used to street violence. All someone like that cares about is winning, surviving at all costs, or getting whatever it is they want. Such people have a different type of mindset from those who come from a different background and have the ‘everything is sports’ mindset. It’s not about which type of mindset is more or less ethical; it’s about being aware that it’s the way things are.

https://youtu.be/Iewaqc0cK2k

Jim

Good point! Those people who have background in Martial Arts are more disciplined and balanced when it comes to self-defense.

[James Y]

Good point! Those people who have background in Martial Arts are more disciplined and balanced when it comes to self-defense.

Hi!

Even some people trained in “traditional” martial arts can fall into the trap of applying a sportsman’s mindset to a street situation. All ‘combat sports’ such as MMA, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, etc., are based on ancient martial arts, both Eastern and Western. The reason I pointed out MMA practitioners in particular (or, more commonly, untrained people who merely sit around and watch MMA on TV or online) is that MMA is often touted as “the ultimate self-defense”. That leads some (not all) people who are into it to believe that someone trained in MMA is prepared to handle all situations.

As much as I respect the skill sets of good MMA fighters, it is NOT the ultimate method of self-defense; nor does it prepare its practitioners for all types of situations. In a combat sports environment like in a cage/octagon or a ring, yes. In a one-on-one ‘style vs style’ ego gratification fight, most likely yes. In some ‘social violence’ fights involving one-on-one and no weapons, yes. In some self-defense situations, yes. But not every type of violent situation one might face. Believing that you can handle anything because you’re trained in it is very dangerous, and leads some people to willingly go into situations or get into fights that they otherwise may have (and should have) avoided. In recent years, it just seems to be that more MMA or BJJ practitioners tend to get into these types of situations.

Otherwise, the same can apply to anyone trained in martial arts, or any other type of self-defense training.

“Self-defense” is a huge subject that involves not only avoidance, physical fighting (in all its possibilities), etc., but also the legal ramifications. No type of martial art, firearm or other weapon, etc., can hope to cover all the possibilities and aspects in and of itself.

Jim

[chuck_roxas45]

One thing I can say about criminal or wannabe criminal elements. The assumption that these people are untrained can be deadly. They probably have not been trained in any formal sense but believe me when I say, they will probably have at least some experience in fighting. Additionally, these people have given a lot of thought on how assaults or defense are to be conducted. They will have rehearsed different scenarios multiple times in their minds. These are motivated people. I was exposed to violent criminal elements in a "previous" life. Don't sell them short just because they didn't train formally.

[James Y]

One thing I can say about criminal or wannabe criminal elements. The assumption that these people are untrained can be deadly. They probably have not been trained in any formal sense but believe me when I say, they will probably have at least some experience in fighting. Additionally, these people have given a lot of thought on how assaults or defense are to be conducted. They will have rehearsed different scenarios multiple times in their minds. These are motivated people. I was exposed to violent criminal elements in a "previous" life. Don't sell them short just because they didn't train formally.

Oh, I’m definitely not selling anyone short. Maybe I should have worded it as “not formally trained.” I’ve known several guys in my lifetime without any ‘formal’ training who could take out most black belt martial artists on the street or in a bar (or wherever). Maybe not in a dojo or competition situation with specific rule sets; but where anything goes, yes. And many of them HAD practiced methods of setting people up/distractions, and taking them out, and had actual experience applying their methods for real. So technically, those are types of martial (warlike) training, but not ‘formal’ training in any particular, formally-named ‘arts’. Although there are secretive systems like “52 Blocks/Jailhouse Rock”.

My point was that MANY people believe that some (or even a lot of) combative sports or martial arts training means they can handle anyone or anything, and they therefore underestimate how dangerous other people and situations outside of their experience can be. I would have thought that mindset would have lessened over the decades, but it seems to have increased in more recent years with the popularity of combative sports.

Jim

[chuck_roxas45]

...
Oh, I’m definitely not selling anyone short. Maybe I should have worded it as “not formally trained.” I’ve known several guys in my lifetime without any ‘formal’ training who could take out most black belt martial artists on the street or in a bar (or wherever). Maybe not in a dojo or competition situation with specific rule sets; but where anything goes, yes. And many of them HAD practiced methods of setting people up/distractions, and taking them out, and had actual experience applying their methods for real. So technically, those are types of martial (warlike) training, but not ‘formal’ training in any particular, formally-named ‘arts’. Although there are secretive systems like “52 Blocks/Jailhouse Rock”.

My point was that MANY people believe that some (or even a lot of) combative sports or martial arts training means they can handle anyone or anything, and they therefore underestimate how dangerous other people and situations outside of their experience can be. I would have thought that mindset would have lessened over the decades, but it seems to have increased in more recent years with the popularity of combative sports.

Jim

No offense intended. It was more a general statement rather than specific to you. I definitely agree with you about some people getting trained classically believing that they are a equipped to deal with "untrained criminals".

There's also an unhealthy trend that I believe is being perpetuated by groups selling tactical gear. For example, there is a facebook group here in the Philippines that is all about tactical flashlights, whatever that means. A lot of newbies to the group are advised to get lights with what I call disco mode or strobe as they as wont to call it. These guys swallow the whole shtick about the blinky modes being enough defense. They don't want to accept that a flashlight, even with blinky modes and a striking bezel, is not near enough defensive capability without proper training. They don't wanna listen when I tell them that gear alone won't make their defense sufficient. It is probably more comforting to them.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I am often asked if MMA is an effective Martial Art for street defense. My answer, MMA is a sport, based on fighting skills and tactics. As a sport it has rules which protect the participants from serious injury. Look for the list of all the things you are not allowed to do in the ring ... this list is important, it’s a starting place for learning effective street defense.

[chuck_roxas45]

I am often asked if MMA is an effective Martial Art for street defense. My answer, MMA is a sport, based on fighting skills and tactics. As a sport it has rules which protect the participants from serious injury. Look for the list of all the things you are not allowed to do in the ring ... this list is important, it’s a starting place for learning effective street defense.

Hey doc. There you go. :D

Once upon a time there was a small guy in a scrape with a very fit larger guy. Turns out his eyes were just as soft as an unfit guy's.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I also find much value in the utube video posted above called knife attack vs pushing the buttons ....a very valuable lesson can be learned from the video and it’s not really what you guys are talking about....if you watch the video (and it’s even highlighted in the vid...the point when person seated gets up. As he makes the draw stroke for his weapon you can plainly see the triangle shape made with elbow and forearm, it means someone is accessing a weapon from their waistband....it’s a lesson in awareness.

[James Y]

Good posts, guys!

Doc, thanks for sharing that observation. Yes, you are very right.

In the video below, probably the most valuable thing shown is the body language and pre-attack indicators from the bigger guy on the left. Oftentimes, when someone looks away, that’s a clear indication he’s about to launch an attack. Also, if you stood these two guys next to each other, the vast majority of people would put their money on the big bald guy to win a fight between them.

The guy who’s commenting on the video makes good observations, but he’s also Monday morning quarterbacking. Sure, maybe the smaller guy on the right didn’t do everything perfectly in his opinion, but he was effective. In real life, very few things happen picture-book perfect. He probably handled it more effectively than the commenter would have.

https://youtu.be/MzcX84QCuE8

Jim

[Naperville]

I am often asked if MMA is an effective Martial Art for street defense. My answer, MMA is a sport, based on fighting skills and tactics. As a sport it has rules which protect the participants from serious injury. Look for the list of all the things you are not allowed to do in the ring ... this list is important, it’s a starting place for learning effective street defense.

I have a document, "Surviving A Purge" that I put together over more than 5 years, on what else? HOW TO SURVIVE A PURGE. It is a new year and time for me to reread it! It's 1.6MB of pure text in a .txt file.

I put together all of the rules/regs, and all of the reasons that a fighter in at least 5 different major fighting sports can be disqualified for dirty strikes / low blows / etc. It basically tells you how to street fight if everything is on the line. Included are ways to cheat in boxing, shoot fighting, mma/ufc, karate....basically, do everything that the rules say you cannot do.

10 Precise Moments That Forever Changed MMA Rules
https://youtu.be/CbV_lMS0R6U

The Dirtiest Fighters In MMA
https://youtu.be/58T0iikn0NU

BIGGEST CHEAP SHOTS IN BOXING HISTORY
https://youtu.be/FHltAavdHLk


THE FOLLOWING IS THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE DIRTY BOXING SECTION:
BOXING RULES - COMBAT MUST IGNORE

The rules of boxing vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and on whether it is an amateur or professional bout. A violation of the following rules is considered a foul, and can result in a warning, point deduction, or disqualification by the referee:

- You cannot hit below the belt, hold, trip, kick, headbutt, wrestle, bite, spit on, or push your opponent.
- You cannot hit with your head, shoulder, forearm, or elbow.
- You cannot hit with an open glove, the inside of the glove, the wrist, the backhand, or the side of the hand.
- You cannot punch your opponent's back, or the back of his head or neck (rabbit punch), or on the kidneys (kidney punch).
- You cannot throw a punch while holding on to the ropes to gain leverage.
- You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time, or duck so low that your head is below your opponent's belt line.
- When the referee breaks you from a clinch, you have to take a full step back; you cannot immediately hit your opponent--that's called "hitting on the break" and is illegal.
- You cannot spit out your mouthpiece on purpose to get a rest.
- If you score a knockdown of your opponent, you must go to the farthest neutral corner while the referee makes the count.
- If you "floor" your opponent, you cannot hit him when he's on the canvas.
- A boxer who is hit with an accidental low blow has up to five minutes to recover. If s/he cannot continue after five minutes, s/he is considered knocked out.
- eye-gouging and castration not infrequent occurrences. The emphasis on maximum disfigurement and severing body parts made this style of fighting unique: except for a banning of weapons it was no holds barred contest won only when one fighter until gave up or was incapacitated. Gouging out an opponent’s eye was the ultimate objective of most fighters, the most celebrated of whom hardened their fingernails and honed them sharp.


They outlawed head-butting, kicking and biting, hitting below the belt ...

That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed.


UFC #1 RULES

1. Eye-poking has been a foul since the first UFC, but it is still a big problem due to the finger-less gloves the fighters wear. It's a double-edged sword because on one hand a finger to the eye could cause serious injury, but on the other fighters need to have open hands to effectively grapple.

2. Groin strikes are illegal and all fighters are required to wear athletic cups; however, most opt to wear the comfortable soft plastic cup as opposed to the steel Thai cup which gives more protection. The foul usually occurs accidentally when inside leg kicks and knees to the thighs miss their mark. After the foul, the fighter is allowed a five-minute period to compose himself.
...

[chuck_roxas45]

..
https://youtu.be/MzcX84QCuE8

Jim

I'd say the smaller guy has had some training and more importantly, experience.

[Naperville]

I'd say the smaller guy has had some training and more importantly, experience.

It was an excellent left arm block.

[chuck_roxas45]

I'd say the smaller guy has had some training and more importantly, experience.

It was an excellent left arm block.

Yes, block and grab in one motion.

[James Y]

Two vs Larger Group.

A dispute over money in London, between members of two different gangs.

The two guys in the car could have just left when the big group was leaving, but no, they had to push it. As a result, they almost got themselves (and possibly innocent bystanders) killed. Miraculously, nobody was killed. The two guys are complete idiots.

Ego can get you killed. Leave the ‘tough guy’ bravado and chest thumping at home.

https://youtu.be/RquoGE-sRGo

Jim

[James Y]

The video below contains a few scenes from a 3-hour Japanese documentary exploring the Chinese origins of Okinawan (and, by extension, Japanese) Karate. The Japanese sensei is Shotokan instructor Tatsuya Naka. From a glance at the Chinese styles, I’m guessing that they’re in Fukien (Fujian) Province in southern China. Fukien is also where most of the Okinawan Karate styles trace their origins to. It’s nice to see a friendly and respectful exchange.

“Wu Zu Quan” is “Five Ancestors Fist.”

The Kung Fu teacher at the very beginning possesses extreme iron arm. “Iron arm,” or “iron bridge” is forearm toughening and hardening, and is most commonly seen in southern Kung Fu styles, as well as in traditional Okinawan Karate. Southern styles emphasize mostly on the radial and ulnar surfaces of the forearm, while some northern styles emphasize toughening only the back muscle surface of the forearm. Even if highly developed, very few will (nor ever need to) develop to the extreme level of the Kung Fu master shown, who has built up to hitting the edge of a stone column full-force with his radial and ulnar bones.

There is nothing magical about it; one must initially begin lightly and avoid any bruising, and build up gradually. Years ago, I used to train my forearms against trees, with a bundle of copper wire, and the 3-star exercise, which consists of banging forearms with other practitioners in preset patterns. I now use a wooden device called the iron arm hammer, which is very effective and convenient. Its only drawback is it’s very loud on impact, so I place a towel over my head to cover my ears when using it. :)

Some people claim this training is “to deaden the nerves so you don’t feel pain,” which is totally inaccurate. There is no nerve deadening. The impact training, which must be developed meticulously, builds the toughness and hardness of the forearm bones and back of forearm muscle surfaces. These areas become denser. One must also use proper dit da jow, an herbal lineament, before AND after such training. The liniment prevents clotting/enhances circulation and accelerates healing, as well as enhances toughening. Without such training, many Kung Fu skills will simply not work. The same as in Okinawan Karate systems, which also emphasize many conditioning methods adopted from some southern Kung Fu systems.

I don’t believe that modern Japanese Shotokan Karate, which differs significantly from its Okinawan roots, emphasizes iron arm training at all.

Trying to apply southern Kung Fu without basic development and specialized conditioning (of which “iron arm” is only one aspect) is like trying to use Muay Thai kicking and leg blocking without conditioning the shins to a high degree. Or like using a blade that hasn’t been properly heat-treated. Technique and movement alone are not enough; they must have the conditioning and development to back them up.

https://youtu.be/casakCaH7kM

Jim

[Dr. Snubnose]

The original word Karate is an Okinawan term which breaks into two parts Kara and Te. Kara was the name in Okinawan for the ruling class in China during the Tang Dynasty. Kara means Tang Dynasty sometimes referred to as Just China. Te means anything that has been handed down by the Chinese. Thus Karate can be translated to Read, China Hand.... or Hands of the Tang Dynasty, paying homage to the origins of their art. As an example and please forgive me as I not real familiar with the intricacies, names, and correct spellings of the Korean martial arts, and if I get something wrong I do apologize and I’m not trying to insult anyone... excuse my ignorance....Tae Kwon Do, (a most popular art here in America) is the youngest of the Korean Karates, (less than 120 yrs old) ... it is derived from another Korean Karate that is older called Muk do Kwon, which comes from the original Korean Karate named Tang So Do... point is...there’s that word Tang again! Hands of the Tang Dynasty....paying homage back to the Chinese for what they shared.

[Iole]

I've messed around the martial art on and off. One lesson i have learned is pick a teacher your own size. I am short and a same size instructor better understand the real world issues of my height. Plus I don't want to study with someone who has never been in a fight. Just my beliefs.