Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[twinboysdad]

Yoshukai and TKD as a kid- neither helped me in real fights.
As an adult, Judo and BJJ but mostly Judo. It is very applicable as so much begins from a standing position.

As an aside, my son began wrestling this year. He was 11 and is now 12. In my opinion there is nothing better to toughen and strengthen a young man’s body and mind than wrestling. He is carved out of wood 7 months after starting and the change in his demeanor is astounding.

[James Y]

Yoshukai and TKD as a kid- neither helped me in real fights.
As an adult, Judo and BJJ but mostly Judo. It is very applicable as so much begins from a standing position.

As an aside, my son began wrestling this year. He was 11 and is now 12. In my opinion there is nothing better to toughen and strengthen a young man’s body and mind than wrestling. He is carved out of wood 7 months after starting and the change in his demeanor is astounding.

I agree that wrestling (or any other grappling training, such as Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Shuai Jiao, etc.) strengthens and toughens the body like nothing else can.

Jim

[James Y]

Judo was the first martial art I ever trained in. It also helped me win my first fight ever against a school bully...a little too well; he was KO’d after getting thrown onto hard-packed dirt.

One of the most invaluable things about Judo are its Ukemi (breakfall techniques). A few years ago, I was out on an early-morning walk (still dark outside), and tripped over a hard-to-see bump in the street. I instinctively used Mae Ukemi (forward breakfall), which saved me from potentially serious injury. I’d been on a very slightly downward slope, and it happened really fast; my feet got caught up, and suddenly the ground was “rushing up” at me. My forearms and hands reflexively went into Mae Ukemi position. My palms got a bit scraped up with a little blood, and I had to miss a few days of work to allow the scraped skin to heal (I’m a massage therapist), but that was it.

In Judo, the practice of falling and rolling is the most important basic skill before learning any throws, sweeps, etc. But I hadn’t practiced Judo since the 1970s. The fact that that Mae Ukemi (forward breakfall) was still ingrained and worked instinctively only a few years ago still amazes me.

Here is Mae Ukemi:

https://youtu.be/OegVa1MjMO8

Jim

[James Y]

So, does martial arts training produce better human beings? By that I mean, as is often touted in ads for martial arts schools, many have claimed that through hard training, a person with attitude problems naturally becomes a more mature, humble, and well-adjusted member of society, hesitant to fight unless absolutely necessary in defense of self or others. Along with that, it is (or has been) often said that the more proficient one becomes, one becomes confident in every other aspect of life.

IMO, these are mainly 20th century constructs. For example, in Japan throughout history into the 19th century, samurai were the warrior class and the elite martial artists. But it’s a well-known fact that many samurai also tended to be bullies, who had the legal right to kill a ‘peasant’ who failed to bow to a passing samurai, who in return needn’t even acknowledge the peasant’s existence.

Another example: Similarly, throughout much of China’s history, martial arts were the property of military men, revolutionary groups, as well as restricted to certain clans/villages or even certain families. To the average populace, though, martial artists were often considered in the same category of ‘fringe’ people as traveling actors, street performers, gamblers, prostitutes, wanderers, etc. Many in Taiwan and Hong Kong associate Kung Fu systems, especially those with southern Chinese origins, with organized criminal groups. In short, martial artists were often considered part of the fringes of society.

Fast forward to current times. There is no shortage of news stories of people involved in “modern” martial arts street fighting at the drop of a hat and getting into trouble. I know of at least three incidents where locally-based combat sports athletes (one a national collegiate wrestling champion and two MMA practitioners) were killed because they went looking for trouble and bit off more than they could chew. If they were well-trained (which by all accounts they were), why didn’t they have the self-control and avoidance of trouble the martial arts are supposed to infuse them with? Because they were young men, at an age where impulsiveness and risky behavior are not uncommon, and which can easily override any ethical training (if any at all) they were taught.

These are only a few superficial observations on this. A whole book could actually be written about this one subject. Of course, there are those whose attitudes have changed and matured while training martial arts. And it may have helped, too. But it’s also possible that a high percentage of those individuals were the type who had it within them, and would have grown and matured faster anyway, with or without any training.

Jim

[James Y]

Double post.

Jim

[MacLaren]

Yoshukai and TKD as a kid- neither helped me in real fights.
As an adult, Judo and BJJ but mostly Judo. It is very applicable as so much begins from a standing position.

As an aside, my son began wrestling this year. He was 11 and is now 12. In my opinion there is nothing better to toughen and strengthen a young man’s body and mind than wrestling. He is carved out of wood 7 months after starting and the change in his demeanor is astounding.

Dam wrestlers are tough as ****
They'll tie ya up in a not pdq lol...

[VooDooChild]

...

Fast forward to current times. There is no shortage of news stories of people involved in “modern” martial arts street fighting at the drop of a hat and getting into trouble. I know of at least three incidents where locally-based combat sports athletes (one a national collegiate wrestling champion and two MMA practitioners) were killed because they went looking for trouble and bit off more than they could chew. If they were well-trained (which by all accounts they were), why didn’t they have the self-control and avoidance of trouble the martial arts are supposed to infuse them with? Because they were young men, at an age where impulsiveness and risky behavior are not uncommon, and which can easily override any ethical training (if any at all) they were taught.

...

Jim

Too many people are too willing to get into a fight and its disturbing. I honestly think its because a lot of modern society is unarmed. I dont doubt that a well trained mma guy could beat most people, I also dont doubt that guy will bleed out just like anybody else. Too many people have this crazy idea that they are going to beat the crap out of somebody and are justified in doing it. We should be teaching people to avoid fighting before teaching them how to fight. A well trained fighter should roll with someone who has a concealed trainer blade, so they can realise how quickly they would end up getting themselves killed. These well trained people should also know that a lot more people have guns than they realise.

Basically people should never go looking for a fight. It is sad how many people do this though.

One of my favorite sayings,
An armed society is a polite society.

[twinboysdad]

Well, as a child of the 80’s who was born in the 70’s, the rule was first one to bleed or “quit” lost and it was over. And most guys became friends after or at least settled differences. Now the curb stomping begins on the ground and it isn’t over until someone videos it and someone is unconscious or permanently injured.

[James Y]

Too many people are too willing to get into a fight and its disturbing. I honestly think its because a lot of modern society is unarmed. I dont doubt that a well trained mma guy could beat most people, I also dont doubt that guy will bleed out just like anybody else. Too many people have this crazy idea that they are going to beat the crap out of somebody and are justified in doing it. We should be teaching people to avoid fighting before teaching them how to fight. A well trained fighter should roll with someone who has a concealed trainer blade, so they can realise how quickly they would end up getting themselves killed. These well trained people should also know that a lot more people have guns than they realise.

Basically people should never go looking for a fight. It is sad how many people do this though.

One of my favorite sayings,
An armed society is a polite society.
[/quote]

You make some great points, VooDooChild. I believe another reason so many are quick to fight is a lack of awareness of the difference between ‘social violence’, such as mutual combat fights involving jockeying for social status among one’s peers (usually also involving alcohol), to prove one’s ‘manhood’; and ‘asocial violence,’ which might involve defending against random, unprovoked, unavoidable attacks by one or more possibly armed strangers. In other words, many people confuse fighting in a ring, a cage or a tournament floor, and the uncontrolled violence that can happen anytime and anywhere.

I can’t point the finger, either. In my early 20s, I got into a couple of stupid fights that were completely avoidable. Luckily they went my way, but anyone who freely gets into fights is playing Russian Roulette. I also defended myself once against an attempted kidnapping by three men (gangsters), which happened the first month when I lived in Taiwan. Again, I was successful, BUT it was completely different. About 20 to 30 minutes after I escaped the attempted kidnapping and got back to the youth hostel where I was staying, I got a case of “the shakes.” That was the only time I ever got the shakes, and I didn’t know what it was at the time, because I’d never even heard of the shakes before.

It was the training I’d gotten years before from my Kenpo teacher, who used to make us fight 2 or 3 on 1, to practice dealing with multiple attackers. I used to hate it, but it sure helped during the attempted abduction; and believe me, they tried hard to get me into that car. It was the constant movement, the erratic striking and knocking them into each other. Nothing at all like a fight in a movie or a sporting match. I was darned lucky that no weapons were involved; it happened on a busy sidewalk with late afternoon rush hour traffic all around. That’s probably why they hadn’t pulled any weapons.

It is ironic that the correct view of martial arts training is to train so you DON’T have to use it, not to have to prove yourself by getting into fights. Ideally, the best self-defense is to avoid trouble by not being where trouble happens. Unfortunately, that’s not always possible, which is why one trains.

Jim

[James Y]

Well, as a child of the 80’s who was born in the 70’s, the rule was first one to bleed or “quit” lost and it was over. And most guys became friends after or at least settled differences. Now the curb stomping begins on the ground and it isn’t over until someone videos it and someone is unconscious or permanently injured.

That is true.

Nowadays, even if someone wins a schoolyard fight, sooner or later, the loser will come looking for him with a gun.

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Kenpo
JuJitsu
Akido

And some military and LE stuff that mostly borrowed from the above. None were more than dalliances compared to real lifelong practitioners.

The thing that amazes me now is how much more we are seeing women attacking and robbing men as well as women. We have all seen how they can be violent with other women forever but I'm seeing something different now. It amazes me. Naturally they seem to go after ones they deem weaker like elderly and folks with canes and walkers. I saw video of a woman slap the wrong bus driver the other day. It was pretty funny. Unfortunately they fired him and will likely be charging him. He punched the woman out of the bus in one punch and told her " If you act like a man I'll treat you like one". :) I feel similar. Everybody should be treated the same. :D

Maybe I'm just seeing it more on the internet because there are cameras and cell phones everywhere.

[OldHoosier62]

Started early....

WW2 Combatives/JuJitsu- mixture of JuJitsu, western boxing, barroom brawling. Taught by both my Grandfathers and one Great Uncle, all survivors of WW2 (2 Mud Marines and one Soldier) and Korea (all 3 in the Corps that time). Simple, brutal and effective. Started training at age 8, at my birthday party no less.

Hapkido- Friend of my father trained in Hapkido while in Korea for several years, taught me for 4 years before I entered the Marine Corps. Combat version before it was "sportified" later on. More complicated, required concentration to learn but effective.

Marine Combatives/LINE Combat System/MCMAP Combat System- Trained in all 3 as they were introduced to the Marine corps during my tenure. Again, simple, brutal and effective.

Currently working in Krav Maga with a couple of friends. Much like WW2 Combatives (it was developed at the same time by Jews trained in the latter).

Most people today don't know what violence really is, they think a fight will be a couple of wild half-hearted punches and a lot of s**t talking....then they get into a fight in the real world and get curb stomped, beat with bats, skateboards, etc...they end up in the ER or worse because of the misconception of violence. Watch the news....don't go into that situation where your spouse and kids might lose you over a wrong look, a misspoken word, the wrong color clothes.

If you end up in a fight, either fight to win or run like ****. I'm almost 60 and I will shoot you, stab you or bludgeon you if you decide to do me bodily harm....you get 1 warning, that's it.

Coopers rules...Combat mindset-

Condition White- you are unprepared and unready to take lethal action. If you are attacked in White you will probably die unless your adversary is totally inept.

Condition Yellow- you bring yourself to the understanding that your life may be in danger and that you may have to do something about it.

Condition Orange- you have determined upon a specific adversary and are prepared to take action which may result in his death, but you are not in a lethal mode.

Condition Red- you are in a lethal mode and will shoot if circumstances warrant.

Condition Black- You are in Combat...The fight is on!

[James Y]

Thanks for contributing, The Mastiff and OldHoosier62.

One thing I’ve been aware of for a long time is to never underestimate ANYONE. Most people do it all the time, whether that underestimation is based on someone’s physical size/physique (or lack of same), weight, age, sex, mannerisms, facial appearance, and even race. Yes, all of those things, and probably more, cause most people to underestimate other people for a variety of things, including the potential danger they may pose, or simply how formidable they might be. Needless to say, underestimating others can carry consequences; sometimes fatal ones. Whether the one doing the underestimating is a potential attacker(s) or a potential victim.

Going a bit OT for a paragraph, but when many people think of the word ‘psychopath’ or ‘sociopath’, they picture a maladjusted loner with a crazy look in their eyes. When in truth, many such people appear very well-adjusted and are actually quite charismatic, and many people are taken in by their charms. Many are very good at pretending to be benevolent, at least initially. But it’s a very well-crafted act. I’ve known some people who fell into that category. The ones I knew I was able to read right away, but many others could not, until things eventually became so obvious that most couldn’t deny it any longer. Yet some people never caught on. As Abraham Lincoln famously stated: “You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”

In truth, that’s not really OT, because self-defense begins with awareness. There are MANY aspects of self-defense in life that do not (and never will) involve physical fighting. By the time you’ve reached the point of actual physical engagement, you’re in an extreme situation and all else has failed.

Jim

[James Y]

This old episode of the true-crime show Forensic Files is a great example of why habitually instigating/getting into fights is stupid and is playing Russian Roulette, no matter WHO or WHAT you may be. In this case, the aggressor/victim was a national AAU wrestling champion. It doesn’t matter how big and bad a tough guy you are, and how many street fights you may have won; your luck only needs to run out once. And the one to do it to you doesn’t have to be bigger, badder or stronger than you.

This incident happened about a mile from my house.

This episode is under 22 minutes long. It may be worth watching it in its entirety, because:

1), It is very relevant to this discussion here. Wrestling, like all combat sports, is based on ancient martial arts;

2), It’s a perfect example of why, no matter which martial art/combat sport, or whatever combative training you may have had, or how many fights you’ve won, it does not make you invincible.

3), It shows some of the legal consequences that will most likely happen when you defend yourself with a weapon.

4), This episode may be of special interest to members of a Spyderco forum. Just watch it and you’ll see why.

https://youtu.be/7FAfm0cNn-M

Jim

[ThomC]

Practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for 10 years, from 8 to 18 years old. Quit because the club I was in favored randori (competitive combat training) over the sport itself.
These sports have taught me a lot over the years, and I still carry much of that experience in my daily life.
Since getting back in shape I've felt the urge to go back into a dojo, but I haven't yet found a place I like.
I've found it to be, indeed, a very useful and calming discipline.

[James Y]

Practiced judo and jiu-jitsu for 10 years, from 8 to 18 years old. Quit because the club I was in favored randori (competitive combat training) over the sport itself.
These sports have taught me a lot over the years, and I still carry much of that experience in my daily life.
Since getting back in shape I've felt the urge to go back into a dojo, but I haven't yet found a place I like.
I've found it to be, indeed, a very useful and calming discipline.

Hi, ThomC.

IMO, Judo is one of the best arts to begin martial arts training. When I studied it in the 1970s, it was in an old, long-established dojo which, besides having the throwing aspect, there was also a fair amount of floor grappling, which may or may not be common in Judo schools today. Pre-World War II Judo had much more emphasis on mat grappling than post-war Judo, when the throw became the biggest emphasis. When I took BJJ for a year about a decade ago, I realized that some of the ground grappling wasn’t too different from the floor work I had learned in Judo decades before, except in BJJ it was their only emphasis. Between Judo and BJJ (which, technically, is a variation of Kano’s Judo, which in itself was a modernization of Jujitsu), I much preferred the Judo I learned over BJJ.

In my area, there were never a lot of Judo schools. Maybe only a couple, but they had high standards. Now I don’t know if there are any at all. Judo was never as popular, nor as commercialized, as other martial arts/martial sports.

I don’t remember there ever being any traditional Japanese Jujitsu schools around my area when I was growing up.

Several years ago, there used to be BJJ academies popping up everywhere, but a lot of them closed down and disappeared. Meanwhile, MMA gyms have taken over. It seems that more people prefer to train their BJJ in MMA gyms than at BJJ academies. Of course, only time will tell how many MMA gyms (and remaining other types of martial arts schools) survive the Covid lockdowns.

Jim

[James Y]

Which martial art(s) is the “best”?

The biggest challenges in martial arts are consistency and motivation. The vast majority of young kids who “take karate” (or any martial art) will have stopped sometime in their teens. And the vast majority of young people who take up the arts that are trending nowadays (Muay Thai, BJJ/MMA, etc.) will also give up training, probably before age 30. Only a small percentage of people who train in MMA will ever actually compete in a cage, and only a teeny-tiny, elite percentage of those will ever be good enough to become a professional fighter.

As I’ve mentioned before in this thread: There are no superior martial arts, only superior practitioners. And while some methods show more consistent results in certain situations, all martial arts have their strengths and their weaknesses. It’s not the art, it’s how it is trained that determines how effective it is. Which is why boasting that the martial art one practices is superior to others is ignorant; it’s riding the coattails of other people’s accomplishments in an attempt to boost one’s self.

Here is one example: “Let’s see any of those Karate (or Kung Fu, Silat, Kali, etc.) masters beat Jon Jones in the Octagon. They can’t. That proves that MMA is superior. I train at an MMA gym. That means I‘m also better and can beat anybody from any of those other arts.“

As ridiculous as that sounds, that is exactly the logic used by MANY people who post about martial arts online. Even worse, in actuality, many (most?) of those types probably don’t even train in anything at all, let alone MMA. As a massage therapist, I’ve worked on many active combat sports athletes (wrestlers, BJJ competitors and MMA practitioners, etc.), and not one of them was arrogant or boastful about it; nor were they dismissive of other methods. Yes, it is possible to be both confident and modest about one’s own abilities.

Back to motivation and consistency; Anyone who has trained in martial arts over a lifetime is an anomaly. And that is especially true if martial arts isn’t your profession, such as teaching/coaching, etc. Because life and circumstances have a way of affecting one’s motivation, consistency, and the amount of, and even the things that one can train. Probably one-half of 1% of all people who take up martial arts training will continue training in some capacity for life. Regardless of “style.” If you train in “The Most Effective Martial Art In The World” but give up training and exercising at 30, you won’t be any more effective (and will probably be less so) than some “out of shape old master” when you reach his age. Also, people practice martial arts for a variety of reasons, not necessarily having to do with wanting to be the baddest person on the planet. Which is why arguments of which martial arts are “better” or “worse” than others are meaningless.

Jim

[VooDooChild]

It really is all about the practitioner/ person and the quality of training.

For instance. I used to think I could take most Taekwondo practitioners because the only exposure I had to it was seeing a watered down version that, alot of times, seemed like an after school activity. Then I sparred a guy who trained in Taekwondo in Korea in the 70s. He nearly knocked my head off. I had heard that the name of the style didnt matter if the training and practitioner was good enough. But there is nothing like learning that first hand.

Maybe that guy would lose quickly to a good wrestler?... But he was not somebody you wanted to stand up with.

[ChrisinHove]

I practised Judo throughout much my childhood & adolescence. The ol’man came from a rough area, was a seafarer, and wanted his sons to be able to look after themselves.
It really is a great sport - something about the mix of control, technique, balance and aggression, I think.
I was never really any good, but had a few memorable wins!

[Takuan]

I’ve trained in various arts over the past 25 years. I earned black belts in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo, as well as an instructor’s certification in Jeet Kune Do, along with a laundry list of injuries. I’ve done a good bit of Kali and Muay Thai, but I’m not certified to teach those arts. Since the pandemic hit, I’ve mainly been hitting the heavy bag and swinging my sticks. Sadly, I haven’t found a way to choke out COVID-19 yet. :) My main interest has been self-defense, but the older I get, the more I become interested in the “art” side of things. As Dan Inosanto once said (loosely quoted from memory), “Sometimes, the things in the martial arts that aren’t really good for fighting are excellent for fighting aging.”