Abrasives

[JD Spydo]

This is probably a thread that Brother LARRIN should be doing but my intense curiosity is making me bring the subject up. During my knife sharpening and knife hobby days I've discovered that "Abrasives" are not created equal and each type has a role to play in sharpening metals of all types. It also seems like natural abrasives have sure taken a back seat to many of these newer man made materials that have hit the market.

Here on this forum we've learned about Spyderco's great ceramic stones and tools. But I don't want to stop there because there are still a few abrasives in nature ( particularly novaculite/Arkansas Stones) and other rocks & minerals used for such jobs.

Obviously man made abrasives have kind of stolen the show over the past 20 years or so. Harder abrasives with more durable properties have become necessary because of the explosion of newer/better blade steels. I'm kind of impressed with CBN ( cubic boron nitride) and some of the other man made abrasives that have come about. So let's talk about Abrasives and the pros and cons to each one>> natural or man-made. Let's also talk about the future of abrasives and where technology is going in that area. With blade steels getting so much harder you just know that the demand for harder abrasives with a wide range of different properties is going to expand.

[JuPaul]

I'll certainly be watching this thread. I'm definitely curious to learn more on the subject.

[standy99]

Being a wet stone sharpener. I bought a few natural stone stones in Japan on a work trip last year.
Yet to use them but it was a interesting afternoon with a range of natural stones I could not fathom when first seeing the amount of types of colourful stones and the amount of grit choices.
A knife sharpening store that didn’t sell knives but wall to wall with sharpening goodies :cool:

[JD Spydo]

Being a wet stone sharpener. I bought a few natural stone stones in Japan on a work trip last year.
Yet to use them but it was a interesting afternoon with a range of natural stones I could not fathom when first seeing the amount of types of colourful stones and the amount of grit choices.
A knife sharpening store that didn’t sell knives but wall to wall with sharpening goodies :cool:

There are so many old woodworkers that I've known over the years that only use benchstones ( whetstones) and won't do it any other way. I have an old benchstone that used to be popular among woodworkers but you don't hear much about them anymore. I'm speaking of the "Queer Creek" stones. I've got one made by Norton and still in the factory box.

It's a natural stone and has a cutting rate a little better than a coarse Arkansas ( novaculite) stone. I use it every so often and I have to believe that there are more natural abrasives out there.

It's still amazing how many new, man made abrasives have hit the market in the past 10 to 15 years. CBN being one I really like. I want to make a prediction>>> I predict that at some point in the next 10 years they will make some type of ceramic that will have a hardness equal to diamond. The newer ceramics are great for many sharpening jobs.

[JD Spydo]

With all the sharpening gurus we have here at Spyderville I find it kind of strange that virtually no one has any interest in "ABRASIVES". Not only for the stones we use most for sharpening jobs but also which ABRASIVES would be good in a survival situation if one would occur.

Even the bottoms of ceramic crocks I've heard can do a decent sharpening job in a pinch. Also all the different grades of sandpapers have a wide selection of different abrasive materials. I've had some interesting results with different sandpapers.

I've even used "crocus cloth" for finishing with some interesting results. Maybe the title is throwing people off???? :confused:

[Ankerson]

With all the sharpening gurus we have here at Spyderville I find it kind of strange that virtually no one has any interest in "ABRASIVES". Not only for the stones we use most for sharpening jobs but also which ABRASIVES would be good in a survival situation if one would occur.

Even the bottoms of ceramic crocks I've heard can do a decent sharpening job in a pinch. Also all the different grades of sandpapers have a wide selection of different abrasive materials. I've had some interesting results with different sandpapers.

I've even used "crocus cloth" for finishing with some interesting results. Maybe the title is throwing people off???? :confused:

Not really a big deal, we have had really good sharpening materials for awhile.

I still use SIC MOST of the time along with ceramics (Shapton Pros for the EP and SIC both) and now diamond compound.

And the Sharp Maker and 701 Profiles.

Natural stones are what they are and stopped using those a very long time ago, over 3 decades now.

[soc_monki]

Natural stones won't even touch most blade steels these days. I prefer diamond for quick metal removal, and the spyderco ceramics for refining the edge. Recently got a fine stone and am really enjoying it, although the medium stone puts a nasty edge already. I tried using just diamond (325 for reprofiling, and 1200 for refining) and it does leave a very nasty toothy edge that just destroys whatever it cuts, and it is a good edge for general purpose, but those spyderco ceramics are just awesome. I'll sit at my computer watching videos or whatever later at night while the kid is asleep and just touch up knives.

I do like silicon carbide stones as well. My norton can really hog off some material, and is what i use if I want to really put some weight behind it, but the coarse diamond works quickly enough for most jobs and is less messy. Just hold the stone in my hand and go back and forth with the knife.

I am curious as to what new types of ceramic abrasives they will come out with in the future. So many people swear you need diamond for high vanadium steels, but I always refer to the fact that unless you are near the micron size of the carbides with your abrasives all youre doing is taking out the carbides with the matrix anyway, so no need to worry about abrasive hardness vs carbide hardness. I don't go that fine with my sharpening, so I have no worries, and tests have shown that at the same micron levels ceramic and diamond have the same edge retention.

It's all personal preference. Diamond leaves a toothier edge, and my ceramics are just a bit more refined. So my progression is like this. Coarse (325) diamond to reprofile or fix any imperfections, extra fine diamond (1200) to take out the deeper scratches from the coarse. Then medium spydero, and depending on the knife I'll use my fine spyderco. Gets em sharp enough for me!

[The Meat man]

For sharpening I only use Venev bonded diamond stones. Stropping is usually with 14 micron diamond on basswood, and I also have a number of kangaroo leather strops with an assortment of CBN compounds: 4, 1.5, .5, and .1 micron.

I only rarely use the Sharpmaker for touch-ups, preferring to strop when possible. I do use the Sharpmaker for serrated edges, however. I also coated a thin wooden dowel rod in CBN compound for stropping serrated edges.

[JD Spydo]

Natural stones won't even touch most blade steels these days.

I do like silicon carbide stones as well.

Yeah I've kind of come to that conclusion myself. But in a way I find it very strange that there isn't an abrasive in nature that isn't close to diamond in hardness and/or abrasive properties.

I also like the properties of Silicon Carbide>> I plan on getting some silicon carbide stones>> but I'm not sure yet which manufacturer I want to go with. I've done some stuff with silicon carbide paper that works great in some situations.

[OldHoosier62]

I have a rather ridiculous quantity of abrasives...between gunsmithing and offering sharpening as a side-service at the gunshop I built up a stockpile. It's split between natural and manufactured...lots of diamond, ceramic with some SIC and CBN thrown in along with a ton of natural stones.

The diamond and ceramic get most of the work these days, due to the alloys, and reprofiling/repairs get done on either my 1x30 grinders or the big 2x72 using SIC belts.

And I'll say this...if you like to sharpen and are good at it, there is money to be made doing it for others. I do most of my friends hunting knives and pocket knives, 3 local chefs knives, their restaurants "working" knives (the biggest pain because of the pure abuse they get) and one local butcher who's too lazy to do his own. Plus whatever sundry housewife's knives get dropped off. It's not retirement level money but it supplements my knife and gun buying habit handily.

[soc_monki]

I have a rather ridiculous quantity of abrasives...between gunsmithing and offering sharpening as a side-service at the gunshop I built up a stockpile. It's split between natural and manufactured...lots of diamond, ceramic with some SIC and CBN thrown in along with a ton of natural stones.

The diamond and ceramic get most of the work these days, due to the alloys, and reprofiling/repairs get done on either my 1x30 grinders or the big 2x72 using SIC belts.

And I'll say this...if you like to sharpen and are good at it, there is money to be made doing it for others. I do most of my friends hunting knives and pocket knives, 3 local chefs knives, their restaurants "working" knives (the biggest pain because of the pure abuse they get) and one local butcher who's too lazy to do his own. Plus whatever sundry housewife's knives get dropped off. It's not retirement level money but it supplements my knife and gun buying habit handily.

I have sharpened a few peoples knives, I actually still have one at the house that needs to go back to the owner! We've both been very busy though so not a big deal.

I wouldn't say I'm good at it. My edges aren't always the prettiest, but they cut well and shave hair! I guess that's the point right?

[soc_monki]

Natural stones won't even touch most blade steels these days.

I do like silicon carbide stones as well.

Yeah I've kind of come to that conclusion myself. But in a way I find it very strange that there isn't an abrasive in nature that isn't close to diamond in hardness and/or abrasive properties.

I also like the properties of Silicon Carbide>> I plan on getting some silicon carbide stones>> but I'm not sure yet which manufacturer I want to go with. I've done some stuff with silicon carbide paper that works great in some situations.

This article might be interesting to you. There ARE harder naturally occurring minerals than diamond, however they are rare, and are hard to make in a lab (I'm pretty sure stones are made with man made diamonds, but I could be wrong!). Still, very interesting read, and makes you wonder when a stone made with wurtzite boron nitride will be available!

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... -material/

[jpm2]

I have naturals (Washita/Arkansas, jap, Belgium, & unknowns), aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, cbn, diamond, bare leather, bare paper bare wood, steel.
Synthetics having various bonds, some shed, some don't.
Some are used with oil, some water, some dry. Stones/papered/plated/powdered. Leather, paper, wood backing.
Nothing powered.

Each one has its use, depending on the sharpening stage, how much time I have, the results I want, what type and composition of blade I'm sharpening, and how that blade will be used.
I find some are interchangeable, some not.

I don't consider any obsolete, but imo some are limited to certain steels and that steels' intended use.

I don't agree with the common assumption that abrasives larger than the carbide size only plows them out with no cutting & shaping of them.

[JD Spydo]

Say "Old Hoosier" I would love to see your collection of whetstones if I was ever to get to meet you at some point. Just the description you gave I can more than imagine the awesome collection of sharpening stones you've amassed over the years.

One thing that is really making me wonder about natural stones that just doesn't make much sense to me. With diamond being the hardest known material on earth>> as well as it being "natural" you would think that there would be other natural abrasive materials that would be similar to diamond in hardness and abrasive properties :confused: But that doesn't seem to be the case because most of the abrasive materials on the Moh's Hardness Scale that approach the hardness of diamond all seem to be synthetic, man-made materials. For some strange reason that just doesn't seem right to me :confused:

[JD Spydo]

I've never gotten into Waterstones>> even though I've had a couple of good friends tell me that they swear by Japanese Waterstones. I know in my gut they are great sharpening tools for sure. I've never known what abrasive they use the most in making those Japanese Waterstones.

Another friend of mine told me that Silicon Carbide stones work better when used wet. But again I've never known what abrasives they use on those Waterstones.

[MacLaren]

I'm also into knife sharpening and I've learned that not all abrasives are created equal. I agree that man-made abrasives have taken over the market in recent years, but natural abrasives like Arkansas Stones are still worth exploring. It's impressive how technology has improved the durability of man-made abrasives like CBN. With blade steels getting harder, the demand for abrasives with a wider range of properties will only increase.

Welcome to Spyderville
You dug up a dandy
It's all good though.

[shunsui]

For some reason, I never bought the diamond stones for the Spyderco Sharpmaker until a few years ago. Feel like I'd been beating my head against the wall for years. What a difference they make.

[MacLaren]

For some reason, I never bought the diamond stones for the Spyderco Sharpmaker until a few years ago. Feel like I'd been beating my head against the wall for years. What a difference they make.

They sure do