Lies, D*** lies & Statistics

[ChrisinHove]

We are often told that “The numbers speak for themselves”, but whose numbers?

We should all be old and/or wise enough to question the source of any data, and also ask for and provide those sources. We can then make up our own minds *why* that information has been made available.

Sorry, but it pains me that genuine discussion even in a civilised place such as this can be derailed. I have come to value everyone’s opinion even if I disagree with it.

Chris

[Evil D]

Once again I have no idea what this is in reference to. I'm doing an awesome job lately at staying out of drama.

[soc_monki]

I take all statistical data with a grain of salt. Look at the studies on aspartame. Labs use rats that already develop cancer, then load them up with 600x the amount of aspartame that a person would normally eat in a year, rats develop cancer, hence aspartame causes cancer. You can rig the results.

Now I'm not saying aspartame is OK, I don't like it (the taste) so I use real sugar. But it just illustrates that people claiming an outcome sometimes game the data to make it fit their agenda.

My 2 cents.

[Ankerson]

We are often told that “The numbers speak for themselves”, but whose numbers?

We should all be old and/or wise enough to question the source of any data, and also ask for and provide those sources. We can then make up our own minds *why* that information has been made available.

Sorry, but it pains me that genuine discussion even in a civilised place such as this can be derailed. I have come to value everyone’s opinion even if I disagree with it.

Chris

I think that's why it's so important to look at studies that have been peer reviewed and not just take numbers as they are.

Sometimes it can take a little research (Effort) to find them, but in the end never just take one resource by itself.

In the end nobody can make anyone believe anything, it's the bring the horse to water old saying.

Or believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.

Kinda like the old coffee is bad for you, then it's not bad for you a few years later. :D

I never blindly believe anything personally, I always make an effort to find out the truth that has been based on facts from reliable sources.

[TomAiello]

I'm not sure which numbers you're looking at, but I've found this web site to be a good source for data:

https://ourworldindata.org

They tend to be fairly good (and conscientious) about cross checking. For example, they discontinued use of the WHO figures for the pandemic and used the Euro-CDC numbers instead, because they found reasons to suspect that their original data source was not reliable (info about that here if you care: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-sources-comparison).

They are reasonably "peer reviewed," if that matters to you, as well. They're part of some trade school in England which claims to be reputable...I believe it's named for a place where farmers moved cattle across a river.

[Ankerson]

I'm not sure which numbers you're looking at, but I've found this web site to be a good source for data:

https://ourworldindata.org

They tend to be fairly good (and conscientious) about cross checking. For example, they discontinued use of the WHO figures for the pandemic and used the Euro-CDC numbers instead, because they found reasons to suspect that their original data source was not reliable (info about that here if you care: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-sources-comparison).

They are reasonably "peer reviewed," if that matters to you, as well. They're part of some trade school in England which claims to be reputable...I believe it's named for a place where farmers moved cattle across a river.

Yes. :)

Them and:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

And:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps ... 7b48e9ecf6

I generally look at all 3. They all are generally pretty close as far as the numbers go, reason to look at 3 different sources.

Along with any published peer reviewed journals and studies.

Just to stay informed from real data so I can see what is really going on.

Not to get involved in another one of those threads..

Don't want to do that at all for obvious reasons. Along with keeping Kriti's sanity... :spyder:

Was just replying to your post on data. :)

[VooDooChild]

Haha. I majored in math and yeah, statistical studies are often not great. Everything from how the data was collected to tweaking p values. Take them with a grain of salt.

[Ankerson]

We are often told that “The numbers speak for themselves”, but whose numbers?

We should all be old and/or wise enough to question the source of any data, and also ask for and provide those sources. We can then make up our own minds *why* that information has been made available.

Sorry, but it pains me that genuine discussion even in a civilised place such as this can be derailed. I have come to value everyone’s opinion even if I disagree with it.

Chris

One thing more about information, I think it's important.

Real Journalists are required to publish their sources (2 sources) also and there will be links in their articles to the sources of information.

If there isn't any source information in the article or reputable sources in the the article then it should be taken with a grain of salt.

So if you fact check the information and can't confirm it to be factual from at least 2 different reputable sources then it is all in question from the beginning.

Goes to what I said about never blindly believing anything.

Scientists and the peer review process works on that principle and their reputation is everything in the Scientific community. A discredited scientist is done, their career is over so they are normally as honest as they can be. It's not perfect by any means as nothing really is.

When a person has a medical problem or emergency they call a Doctor MD and or go see a Doctor MD.

They don't call a plumber or some random person with no Medical Degree.

[TomAiello]

'Peer Review' isn't all it's cracked up to be either.

https://areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/aca ... holarship/

[Ankerson]

'Peer Review' isn't all it's cracked up to be either.

https://areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/aca ... holarship/

So do you go see a Doctor (MD) or a Plumber or just some random person off the street when you have a medical problem?

[ChrisinHove]

I would suspect that peer review of social sciences is more subjective than that of physical sciences, but I am sure it can all be subject to abuse.

[TomAiello]

So do you go see a Doctor (MD) or a Plumber or just some random person off the street when you have a medical problem?

Actually, lost of people do just what you're suggesting, with fairly large negative consequences.

In my state, for example, Nurse Practitioners can practice independently (no supervision from an actual MD or DO), and are required to have _fewer hours of training than a hairstylist_ to get their license. They even call themselves "Doctors" (of nursing) which leads to a lot of confusion. When you go to the doctors office, and someone in a white coat introduces themselves as "Doctor Smith" you kind of assume they are actually a doctor. Unfortunately, that assumption is often incorrect. We're now inundated with "doctors" in white coats who aren't actual doctors. Doctors of Physical Therapy, Doctors of Nursing, Doctors of Chiropractic...and most people think they are actually what we traditionally think of as a "doctor", which is an MD or DO with residency training and board certification, when in fact they have roughly one fifteenth the training of a 'real' doctor.

[Ankerson]

So do you go see a Doctor (MD) or a Plumber or just some random person off the street when you have a medical problem?

Actually, lost of people do just what you're suggesting, with fairly large negative consequences.

In my state, for example, Nurse Practitioners can practice independently (no supervision from an actual MD or DO), and are required to have _fewer hours of training than a hairstylist_ to get their license. They even call themselves "Doctors" (of nursing) which leads to a lot of confusion. When you go to the doctors office, and someone in a white coat introduces themselves as "Doctor Smith" you kind of assume they are actually a doctor. Unfortunately, that assumption is often incorrect. We're now inundated with "doctors" in white coats who aren't actual doctors. Doctors of Physical Therapy, Doctors of Nursing, Doctors of Chiropractic...and most people think they are actually what we traditionally think of as a "doctor", which is an MD or DO with residency training and board certification, when in fact they have roughly one fifteenth the training of a 'real' doctor.

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

[JD Spydo]

When it comes to the "Mainstream Media" I just don't put any faith on hardly anything they say anymore. It's getting to be a case of "Follow The Money Trail" more and more as time goes by it seems.

Back when I was a teenager my late dad always repeated a cliché which stated "All Lawyers Are Liars, But Not All Liars Are Lawyers" :eek: . The older I get I think I now fully realize what he was trying to get across. Because that saying of his seems to cover a lot of information sources that you might encounter ( especially in the business world :rolleyes: ).

My favorite Uncle always said "Follow The Money Trail When Looking For the Truth". Honesty & Integrity are both on the "endangered species list" in this present era.

[TomAiello]

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

That makes you a lot smarter than the average person, unfortunately.

My wife once walked out of a "doctor's appointment" for my daughter when it became apparent that the "doctor" we were talking to knew _a lot_ less than my wife did about pediatric illnesses (my daughter was sick). It turned out the 'doctor' was a nurse with a 'doctor of nursing' degree.

[Ankerson]

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

That makes you a lot smarter than the average person, unfortunately.

My wife once walked out of a "doctor's appointment" for my daughter when it became apparent that the "doctor" we were talking to knew _a lot_ less than my wife did about pediatric illnesses (my daughter was sick). It turned out the 'doctor' was a nurse with a 'doctor of nursing' degree.

There are some MD's that also have a PHD depending on their interests etc.

A PHD can usually be and is a misconception that someone is a medical Doctor.. MD...

I have always thought they need to call the PHDs something else other than Doctor..... I think they need to be a MD personally to earn that title.

That would separate the academics from the real MD's.

Someone could have a PHD in basket weaving and be called a Doctor as an example.

[JD Spydo]

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

That makes you a lot smarter than the average person, unfortunately.

My wife once walked out of a "doctor's appointment" for my daughter when it became apparent that the "doctor" we were talking to knew _a lot_ less than my wife did about pediatric illnesses (my daughter was sick). It turned out the 'doctor' was a nurse with a 'doctor of nursing' degree.

There are some MD's that also have a PHD depending on their interests etc.

A PHD can usually be and is a misconception that someone is a medical Doctor.. MD...

I have always thought they need to call the PHDs something else other than Doctor..... I think they need to be a MD personally to earn that title.

That would separate the academics from the real MD's.

Someone could have a PHD in basket weaving and be called a Doctor as an example.

Here in the state of Missouri a doctor with the D. O. training is essentially on the same level as a doctor with the M. D. certification. My last two surgeons were D. O. and they were great.

As far as any medical doctor who also had a Phd>> I've only encountered one and that was a pathologist ( a forensic doctor) that usually works with a coroner and/or police departments.

Also people confuse a "doctorate" as strictly a medical designation>> but there are many engineers and other professionals who have a "doctorate" degree in their chosen professions.

[Mike Blue]

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

That makes you a lot smarter than the average person, unfortunately.

My wife once walked out of a "doctor's appointment" for my daughter when it became apparent that the "doctor" we were talking to knew _a lot_ less than my wife did about pediatric illnesses (my daughter was sick). It turned out the 'doctor' was a nurse with a 'doctor of nursing' degree.

I'll be brief. From someone who is "inside the business," there is more left out of this discussion than included to keep the balance. I've done the grad school doctor thing too and was entertained by this statistical thread before doctor's titles derailed it.

People with a doctoral degree of whatever persuasion, are people. Not all of them are really good at what they do, think Bell curve. The best are not confused by their title and are simply good honest human beings who will hope, as you do, that you can have a relationship with a human being who can help you. I agree that you should do a little research before you have to seek out their services. Sometimes the system/admit/insurance does not allow for the choices you would rather make. Research that too before you go. There are a lot of things you can do to prevent an unfortunate unsatisfactory experience.

I know hair stylists who are better psychiatrists than people who are board certified. They didn't want, or never had, the opportunity to go to med school to make a difference, but they have no lack of business for what they give besides shorter better looking heads of hair. I am an osteopath and I have no problem with chiropractors who have good hands. We are all up against the idea that we "all have to know our limitations." Just as you are when you choose to come to people like us. Word of mouth is far more valuable than any billboard.

In the UK, surgeons are titled "Mister." It's a working system that speaks to their history. Here is my caution: no matter the title earned, when that external label becomes the person, I wonder who is inside that hollow tube of a sheepskin. When I meet someone who the sheepskin is just something they do to pay the rent, I'm a long way to getting to know the human being who earned it. Take the time to know someone, not just their title. Listen to their patients first if you can. Don't be afraid to say you're not comfortable when you need to.

I have some difficulty when bias is expressed based on external, often invalid, criteria.

[Ankerson]

I never assume anything...

I always check for the Medical Degree etc... Before going... :D

That makes you a lot smarter than the average person, unfortunately.

My wife once walked out of a "doctor's appointment" for my daughter when it became apparent that the "doctor" we were talking to knew _a lot_ less than my wife did about pediatric illnesses (my daughter was sick). It turned out the 'doctor' was a nurse with a 'doctor of nursing' degree.

I'll be brief. From someone who is "inside the business," there is more left out of this discussion than included to keep the balance. I've done the grad school doctor thing too and was entertained by this statistical thread before doctor's titles derailed it.

People with a doctoral degree of whatever persuasion, are people. Not all of them are really good at what they do, think Bell curve. The best are not confused by their title and are simply good honest human beings who will hope, as you do, that you can have a relationship with a human being who can help you. I agree that you should do a little research before you have to seek out their services. Sometimes the system/admit/insurance does not allow for the choices you would rather make. Research that too before you go. There are a lot of things you can do to prevent an unfortunate unsatisfactory experience.

I know hair stylists who are better psychiatrists than people who are board certified. They didn't want, or never had, the opportunity to go to med school to make a difference, but they have no lack of business for what they give besides shorter better looking heads of hair. I am an osteopath and I have no problem with chiropractors who have good hands. We are all up against the idea that we "all have to know our limitations." Just as you are when you choose to come to people like us. Word of mouth is far more valuable than any billboard.

In the UK, surgeons are titled "Mister." It's a working system that speaks to their history. Here is my caution: no matter the title earned, when that external label becomes the person, I wonder who is inside that hollow tube of a sheepskin. When I meet someone who the sheepskin is just something they do to pay the rent, I'm a long way to getting to know the human being who earned it. Take the time to know someone, not just their title. Listen to their patients first if you can. Don't be afraid to say you're not comfortable when you need to.

I have some difficulty when bias is expressed based on external, often invalid, criteria.

I would really hope people would check out an MD before going to see them.

Especially these days when information is so readily available.

One can normally pull up just about anything on an MD without much of a hassle or even a lot of time.

I doubt the people who are PHD's or MD have any doubt who or what they are, I would really nope not....

I think it's others who may or may not be confused about what the differences really are and what a PHD is compared to an MD.

[TomAiello]

Here in the state of Missouri a doctor with the D. O. training is essentially on the same level as a doctor with the M. D. certification. My last two surgeons were D. O. and they were great.

That's true everywhere in the country. The MD and DO are the degrees that qualify you for internship and residency, which are the steps we generally think of as training someone to be a doctor (physician). In this sense a DO _is_ a real doctor (by which I mean a qualified, board certified physician in an American jurisdiction).

I actually don't think the Ph.D. confusion is very large. But the 'doctor of nursing/chiropractic/physical therapy' is crazy. These are people who wear white coats, work in a medical setting, and introduce themselves to patients as "Doctor so-and-so". The "Doctor of Nurse Practitioner-ness" is particularly confusing, and usually intentionally so.