"Why not more knife fans?" revisited.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

This question has been raised before and I want to raise it again: Why is it that, except for those out there in the world and on this forum (and other edged tool forums), who are knife afficianados and fans/collectors, most of the human race, unless my reasoning is wrong, does not seem to be "into knives" like we are? Most people use knives for food or other uses at some point in their lives, but most don't seem to be heavy knife collectors. They may fancy a certain design here or there but that is not the same thing. What are reasons for this?

I understand that there are things you or I may be into that someone else may not be into, but to me, the knife is more of a foundational and fundamental human thing and, at least from the way I see, it, even "non knife people" should be into knives, for even that reason alone.

As a related phenomena to this: When I watch old movies, such as from the 1930s or 1950s, one of the first thoughts that comes to my mind is: "I wonder what kind of knife or knives those people have on their person or in their possession?"

Also, why do you think it is that in movies, both old and new, when a knife or edged tool or weapon is shown, generally no attention is brought to what type of steel it is made from? Why don't the writers have the characters say "Oh and this dagger is made from forged high carbon steel" or "This knife is made from 440 stainless steel"? Because it is of no consequence to the plot of the movie and that is extra wasted time for them?

As a test I recently asked someone who is not a knife collector this question: "Do you often time think of powder metallurgy knives vs hand forged, and are you interested in A2 and O1 tool steel vs 1095 carbon, Maxamet, or VG10 stainless steel?" and the person gave me a bewildered look like I was "out of this world" and said "If it cuts it works, if not, its trash." Is that an example of how many people think about knives?

[TkoK83Spy]

Non knife people are totally different than us. Pretty much everyone I work with carries a knife, but none are over $20. A few of the guys think my knives are cool and like to see them when I get a new one, though they think I'm insane to pay the prices I pay for them.

One of the guys noticed when I went on a Para 3 sprint/exclusive binge last year...he said, "why do you have the same knife in like 5 different colors or with a coated blade?" Too which I responded with something like " exactly that, different colors and different steels"

Like you said, I rambled off a few different steels and that didn't mean anything to him, same thing "who cares, if it cuts, then it cuts and does what a knife is supposed to do"

I relate it to people who look at their vehicles as just that, "just a car or truck that gets me where I need to go"

[The Deacon]

Most men and some women own hand tools, only a small percentage obsess over them. Most people own scissors, only a small percentage obsess over them. Most adults own razors, only a small percentage obsess over them. Are you starting to see a pattern here? My point is that we are the odd fish, not them.

As for the other, I'm betting if they did talk about knife steel in a movie or tv show, they'd get it wrong, just like they get 90% of firearms related details wrong.

[ZrowsN1s]

Knife Phobic - terrfied of knives, doesn't understand why people ever need to carry them.

Knife Neutral - has no use for knives but isn't bothered or offended by their presence.

Knife User - gas station knife carrier, can't sharpen, uses knife as pry bar, screw driver and scraper.

Competent Knife user - understands the proper maintenance and use of knives, usually owns a solid work knife that gets used on a regular basis.

Knife Collector - has a collection of knives some nice some users.

The AFI - owns grails, safe queens, high end users, and many many Spyderco's :D (That's us, and we're a small subgroup even among knife users)

[James Y]

Because people are interested in different things.

For example, I couldn't care less about high-end watches, but there are people who are obsessed about Rolex and other high-end brands. I'm perfectly happy with a cheap Timex, and as long as it keeps working, I think nothing more of it.

I'm happy with my Toyota Camry and couldn't care about Lamborghinis or Mercedes or whatever. As long as it keeps working reliably (which it does), I think nothing more of it.

Why aren't all people obsessed about wearing all the latest fashions? "Why doesn't every man care enough about his appearance to always wear a suit and tie? Don't they know how important it is to always look your best?" (I don't and couldn't care less).

There is no mystery. People all have different interests. Just because we're into knives doesn't mean everyone else has to conform to us. Most will wonder, "Why are you so into knives?" And if you told them why, such as different steels, or the usefulness of carrying a knife, they'll give you a blank look and yawn. It's the same as the above examples. Everyone has their own interests and their own quirks, and they probably wonder why you (a general 'you', not you personally) aren't interested in all the things they are.

Jim

[Naperville]

As a test I recently asked someone who is not a knife collector this question: "Do you often time think of powder metallurgy knives vs hand forged, and are you interested in A2 and O1 tool steel vs 1095 carbon, Maxamet, or VG10 stainless steel?" and the person gave me a bewildered look like I was "out of this world" and said "If it cuts it works, if not, its trash." Is that an example of how many people think about knives?

Finding the niche in every target market is the secret. The question that you asked is very technical. What I would do is to target the niche groups that are technical to reach those whose eyes would not glaze over when running down a list of steels and knife attributes.

TARGET
- metallurgists
- sportsman that are in very technical endeavors: the 3D archer, the Olympic archer, the long range shooter in NRA F-TR, the shooter that is a reloader, those in the military and who aspire to be SEALS or Green Berets or Special Forces, the police officer in SWAT, ...
- ...

[Bloke]

the characters say "Oh and this dagger is made from forged high carbon steel" or "This knife is made from 440 stainless steel"

[The Mastiff]

the characters say "Oh and this dagger is made from forged high carbon steel" or "This knife is made from 440 stainless steel"

There are a lot of knife users and even collectors that couldn't care less what steel they have other than if it's stainless. Your average Case brand collector only knows if it's stainless or "CV" ( not stainless). Some have hundreds of knives worth many thousands of dollars.

For their uses and needs they are well enough equipped. Even the worst of us steel junkies could probably get by with Case " Tru Sharp" stainless steel if forced to. :eek: I have in the past. In fact I got by with knives of less quality than that. I carried a carbon steel barlow knife with the clip blade broken off about 3/4th of the way down for years and did things with it some might not think possible. :)

Joe

[Evil D]

To most of us (I suspect), a hammer is a tool to pound things with, but to a carpenter who swings that hammer probably a thousand times a day or more, there's a lot more to a hammer than just pounding things. Knife hobbyists look at knives in the same way, they're more than a tool to cut with, even though you can pound nails with a $3 Harbor Freight hammer just the same as you can cut boxes with a $3 Walmart pocket knife. Some of us use our knives for work, and that sometimes means more priority is put on our tools (I say sometimes because there are lots of guys who are the complete opposite and say that a knife is just a cutting tool and they'll likely destroy it in use anyway so why spend more than $20 on one?).

But the real problem isn't the "tool vs hobbyist" mentality, it's the other group of people who don't believe you even have a need for the tool, let alone for owning knives as a hobby. Those people are so narrow minded that they only see a knife as a weapon, despite the fact that an attacker can kill you just as easily (if not more so) with the hammer. These people live sheltered lives where everything is either handed to them or must come in tidy little ziploc bags so their perspective of needing a knife as a tool isn't there.

And that's really what it all boils down to....perspective. Part of the problem with perspective is that a lot of people have theirs fed to them through the evening news.

[The Meat man]

To most of us (I suspect), a hammer is a tool to pound things with, but to a carpenter who swings that hammer probably a thousand times a day or more, there's a lot more to a hammer than just pounding things. Knife hobbyists look at knives in the same way, they're more than a tool to cut with, even though you can pound nails with a $3 Harbor Freight hammer just the same as you can cut boxes with a $3 Walmart pocket knife. Some of us use our knives for work, and that sometimes means more priority is put on our tools (I say sometimes because there are lots of guys who are the complete opposite and say that a knife is just a cutting tool and they'll likely destroy it in use anyway so why spend more than $20 on one?).

The hammer illustration is a good one. Most people probably aren't aware that construction workers often spend $200 or more on a good hammer.

[Crux]

The Para 3 is built like a $200 hammer.

[Evil D]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

[Crux]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

[Evil D]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

I dunno, I'm no carpenter but the market for them sure is enormous and lots of framers seem to like them. My understanding is that a lighter hammer means a faster swing (with less energy invested) which delivers more energy into a nail and gets it drove in faster and with less energy. Those fractions of energy reduction add up over a day's work.

[Crux]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

I dunno, I'm no carpenter but the market for them sure is enormous and lots of framers seem to like them. My understanding is that a lighter hammer means a faster swing (with less energy invested) which delivers more energy into a nail and gets it drove in faster and with less energy. Those fractions of energy reduction add up over a day's work.

You need the weight to work for you. Give a test for a day and you'll see. There is a reason high end hammers are sold by various weights.

[JD Spydo]

Non knife people are totally different than us. Pretty much everyone I work with carries a knife, but none are over $20. A few of the guys think my knives are cool and like to see them when I get a new one, though they think I'm insane to pay the prices I pay for them.
I relate it to people who look at their vehicles as just that, "just a car or truck that gets me where I need to go"

It's a rare occasion when I meet anyone at random who knows hardly anything about high end, top quality cutlery. The overall ignorance of high quality cutlery in the adult population is practically laughable. It's even pathetic when I do show a friend something like my M390 Military model and they ask how much I paid for it>> when I tell them how much that particular model costs they immediately tell me how much of an idiot I am because they can get virtually the same thing at the local flew market for a fraction of what I paid for any of my Spyderco or other high quality blades I own and use.
It's also pathetic when I talk to friends about one of my knives and they immediately get out some Chinese made "knock off" that they proudly tell me they got at a bait shop or convenience store for less than $10 in many cases and then they have the gall to tell me that their blade is just as good or even better than anything that I own. I don't even bother to try to convince them anymore or to try to educate them. Once in a great while I will run into someone who truly is interested in learning about high quality cutlery. But most of these people are so addicted to these life destroying cell phones and other electronic devices that they literally worship in many cases. It's truly sad to see most Americans get more stupid by the day. Because most people I meet on a daily basis are so compartmentalized and stupid about the concept of quality tools it's even a wonder that most of these people manage to conduct their lives>> much less have the capacity to appreciate a well made, high quality tool.

[The Meat man]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

I dunno, I'm no carpenter but the market for them sure is enormous and lots of framers seem to like them. My understanding is that a lighter hammer means a faster swing (with less energy invested) which delivers more energy into a nail and gets it drove in faster and with less energy. Those fractions of energy reduction add up over a day's work.

You need the weight to work for you. Give a test for a day and you'll see. There is a reason high end hammers are sold by various weights.

There is a sweet spot for hammer weight. More isn't necessarily better. Most people find 19 or 20 ounces to be preferable to thirty, especially if they're swinging a hammer all day long.
Also, weight isn't everything. As you said, grip is important, as well as weight balance. Those titanium hammers are spot on.

At any rate, this discussion is moot to begin with. Doesn't everybody know that the very best hammer is simply a Para 3 fixed to a wooden shaft? :D

[Bloke]

you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing.

[Extra330SC]

I once seriously considered buying a high end titanium hammer despite the fact that I have no reasonable need for such a thing.

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

I dunno, I'm no carpenter but the market for them sure is enormous and lots of framers seem to like them. My understanding is that a lighter hammer means a faster swing (with less energy invested) which delivers more energy into a nail and gets it drove in faster and with less energy. Those fractions of energy reduction add up over a day's work.

I bought a 200 titanium hammer for my best friends brother who finished a redwood deck on my house.... for just materials only. He works on high end custom vacation homes in Grass Valley and Northstar! He loved the gift and uses it every day on the job as his primary hammer.

James

[Crux]

Good thing as a hammer needs weight and titanium doesn't have it. I spent a lot of time behind a hammer and you want a good weight and grip that matches your swing. Casual hammer use might be okay for titanium.

I dunno, I'm no carpenter but the market for them sure is enormous and lots of framers seem to like them. My understanding is that a lighter hammer means a faster swing (with less energy invested) which delivers more energy into a nail and gets it drove in faster and with less energy. Those fractions of energy reduction add up over a day's work.

You need the weight to work for you. Give a test for a day and you'll see. There is a reason high end hammers are sold by various weights.

There is a sweet spot for hammer weight. More isn't necessarily better. Most people find 19 or 20 ounces to be preferable to thirty, especially if they're swinging a hammer all day long.
Also, weight isn't everything. As you said, grip is important, as well as weight balance. Those titanium hammers are spot on.

At any rate, this discussion is moot to begin with. Doesn't everybody know that the very best hammer is simply a Para 3 fixed to a wooden shaft? :D

Ok, that I will agree with.