9mm vs 40 S&W vs 45 ACP

[Doc Dan]

[/quote]

HaHahaha! :D :D :D

[Crux]

Ha ha ha! Can we even laugh at that today? Ha ha ha!

[The Mastiff]

I've had my share of 45's and always seemed to get ones that malfunctioned. Various model and size 1911 types and even a S&W 4516 for a few years.I gave up on those eventually and went to 9mm then 40 S&W after that arrived. I have had much better luck with those and have/had Glocks that have never once malfunctioned including back when I made time to hit the range every weekend.

I am a 38 sp/357 guy though. 30 years of qualifying and S&W schools make the 4 inch S&W medium frame heavy barrel like my Enduras in that muscle memory and countless hours with them make them the most suited for the times of high stress and adrenaline dumps inevitable in a self defense situation. I feel even the non plus p loads I have should do what I need at ranges likely to be encountered in my house which is where I would no longer try to get away and stay and fight.

I have personally seen failures to stop even with 12 gauge #4 buck ( little over 5 yards) so I have no real expectations of super bullets zapping guys like internal grenades. I do feel the Dali Lama has good advice for us here too.https://imgur.com/gallery/y48vD

Joe

[Doc Dan]

I know buckshot is not always a sure stopper, and I personally know of an incident where a man shot another man at less than a foot distance in the chest with a 44 mag and did not stop him. It did not kill him, either and I knew a lady cop who shot a man with a .25 ACP, and it did not even make him flinch. There is no such thing as a gunshot throwing someone backwards. I have shot a grazing deer with 00 buck at about 15 feet and the deer simply laid down sideways. It did not bowl it over, as you see on TV.

I note that the FBI and a lot of other agencies have gone back to the 9mm. With the new loads, it takes a 357 Sig to be better, and then only a frog hair's difference. But, you pay the price in recoil and blast. I love the 45 acp, as that is what I cut my teeth with. But, I have to be realistic that it does not do anything much better than a 9mm, shooting concrete block excepted. The 9mm has much better penetration in car bodies, wood, clothing, and etc.

If I were in the woods where large bears were apt to be, I would not choose any semi-auto handgun. I would opt for a .44 Mag with Grizzly hard cast 300+ grain deep penetrators or a Remington V3 Tac 13. Come to think of it, this is a very good option for home use with the right shot shell selection.

[tvenuto]

I personally enjoy shooting my FNX 45 very much, the recoil feels less “snappy” than my 9.

[Naperville]

Is there anyone else, here, that has actually used a 9mm, 40 SW, or 45 ACP, etc. to shoot deer, dogs, or other animals that would care to chime in?

I have no tales to tell, but if you're handy with Google and you search for "New York Times bullet effectiveness" or some such phrasing, you may find a recent article on the subject.

.45 was ranked #1 for "harm" and .357 was ranked #2.

I think the NYT was trying to open up the discussion to taxing or banning dangerous weapons....and they then inadvertently sold a few thousand more handguns.

[Crux]

I love my SA XDs 3.3 and all my SA's love these.

G2 R.I.P.

[awa54]

I love my SA XDs 3.3 and all my SA's love these.

G2 R.I.P.

And here I thought you were going to recommend a Para 3...

not sure what to do now, I'm so confused.

[Crux]

I love my SA XDs 3.3 and all my SA's love these.

G2 R.I.P.

And here I thought you were going to recommend a Para 3...

not sure what to do now, I'm so confused.

Ha, are you trying to insinuate that I'm a Para 3 junkie?

I will say that if you don't have a gun or maybe you do, you ought to have a Para 3. Just saying.

[awa54]

Sufficient power, lighter, easier to get repeat shots on target and it’s not going through something and into your neighbors house. As I recall just a few years back the FBI after extensive research switched from the 40 to the 9 mm.

And before .40 was in the running there was the 9mm Speer Gold Dot HP bullet that was allegedly designed with input from the FBI stipulating a projectile that gave maximum energy transfer and minimum chance of overpenetration.

Here in VT the State Police switched from .357 revolvers to 9mm semis (maybe in the early 1980s?), at least to some extent because of a few incidents of bullets travelling several residences over from where confrontations occurred.

[Doc Dan]

Is there anyone else, here, that has actually used a 9mm, 40 SW, or 45 ACP, etc. to shoot deer, dogs, or other animals that would care to chime in?

I have no tales to tell, but if you're handy with Google and you search for "New York Times bullet effectiveness" or some such phrasing, you may find a recent article on the subject.

.45 was ranked #1 for "harm" and .357 was ranked #2.

I think the NYT was trying to open up the discussion to taxing or banning dangerous weapons....and they then inadvertently sold a few thousand more handguns.

Haha! New York Times and news article, two things that never go together. They never get their facts straight.

[benben]

I carry, shoot, and love all 3 of those calibers. Today I happen to be carrying a HK P30sk 9mm. It’s 100% about what you know, my range practice is more about being familiar with everything with the pistol I happen to be using.....trigger break, trigger reset, how to clear a FTF or FTE, rapid magazine changes, rapid accurate follow up shots, how accurate my ammo is. To me all of those things are more important than just punching holes in the 10 ring. If you practice and do your part, all 3 of these ammo’s will get the job done!

The .40 has fallen out of grace over the last several years, I still love it for various reasons!

[benben]

I reaching way back, don’t remember the article exactly to a T. Massad Ayoob wrote it years ago, maybe in Backwoods magazine?

It was comparing WW2 GI’s with their 1911 45acp in CQC with German soldiers and their 9mm Luger. Now we all know ammo advancements are on another plant compared to then, but American Soldiers had wayyyyy more fire power and stopping ability than the Germans did then according to skull wound forensics!

Look up the article, very interesting read, I’m thinking it’s over 20 years old.

[shunsui]

I'd like to think the 45 was a great load, but really none of these calibers are all that good compared to a shotgun or rifle.

All that aside though, I like handling the larger .45 cartridge. Used to shake those tiny 9mm brass shells out of my 45 brass back when I was reloading.

Locally you can only have 10 round magazines, so doesn't matter how small the 9mm ammo is, you only get 10 rounds. Might as well splurge on the fat ammo.

Having watched the FBI stagger from one caliber to another for about thirty years now the one thing I'm sure of is they don't know what they're doing. I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time before they switch calibers again. In the mean time, it'll be easier for everyone to qualify if that's what you really want.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to make someone qualify with .357 magnum before they're allowed on the streets with a 9mm. Prove you didn't just slide by.

[The Mastiff]

I'd like to think the 45 was a great load, but really none of these calibers are all that good compared to a shotgun or rifle.

In general that is pretty much true with all handguns/calibers. Some are worse than others admittedly. I'll always remember keeping a guy talking while waiting for the emergency services after he drove up to the gate at Ft. Carson after getting shot in the head twice with a 25 acp. Other than looking scared and bloody he was in pretty good condition considering all things.

The people who got shot trying to get over the fences were so full of adrenaline before they were shot it should be no surprise they kept going after getting shot. The only thing that never let us down in that respect was .223 55 grain soft points ( Mini 14 ranch). They had actual "stopping" power unlike the shotgun which I don't trust past about 7 yards to be completely honest. The idea was to keep shooting until they stopped which sort of became my philosophy on any kind of force ( whether baton strikes, CS or pepper, etc.) Naturally you'd better be on solid ground legally before doing so which we were with felons on the fence.

I feel like whatever I'm carrying is not magic and can't be counted on for instant anything. If I was serious about magic bullets my carry gun would be a 300 win magnum with 150 grain sp for human sized unarmored stopping power. :o

Joe

[Extra330SC]

Is there anyone else, here, that has actually used a 9mm, 40 SW, or 45 ACP, etc. to shoot deer, dogs, or other animals that would care to chime in?

This is mostly for entertainment value...but how about pig heads? :eek:
https://youtu.be/JGZe6q5oXU4

Bone... https://youtu.be/lPRR7Oi6ylw


James

[Doc Dan]

Frank Hamer was shot at point blank range in the shoulder and then in the thigh with a .45 ACP and it did not stop him. On the contrary, he took the pistol away from the other guy and beat him with it.

[Crux]

I should say again that the Luger 9mm in respect to the .45 acp has these distinct and undisputed advantages. Longer range, more accurate, more carry rounds, smaller lighter handgun, less cost and most importantly relatively similar takedown results in the realistic actual shoot range of 15'-20', despite the .45 acp causing considerably more damage.

[markg]

Before I say this, I am a big bore revolver guy who carries a 10mm in the woods...

I saw an article done by a reputable source (I don't have it handy so forgive me) about handguns used to defend against large bear attack, It reviewed documented use by caliber. Just about any larger caliber (9mm and up) was successfully used against large bears. The 9mm did well, and that surprised me. Turns out, bullet velocity and construction (and the ability to put multiple rounds on target) play the largest role. Solid bullets going fast, and the ability to put those rounds on target was key. As a matter of fact, handguns fared better than long guns (the guns were more quickly accessible, and people tended to have them on person more often than long gun). Sure a .44 mag has more energy than a 9mm, however shooters are able to get off more shots from that 9mm than a .44 mag. I had been moving this way any way, when I switched from .44's (and .454's) to a 10mm. I am able to shoot it better and have 15 rounds on board. Plus I am only going to deal with black bears where I go.

Now hunting is a different situation. It is not humane to shoot 5 9mm into a deer hoping it works. I would look at your hunting regualtions as a key to what is acceptable for hunting. Can a 9mm kill a deer? Of course it can. With modern ammunition (not FMJ's) all the big three will preform pretty much equally.

[Doc Dan]

For those who like energy, a standard 9mm has more energy than a .45 ACP. For those who like velocity a standard 9mm has more velocity than a .45. For those who like bigger holes, think about this: the difference in diameter between the "huge" 45 ACP and the "tiny" 9mm is only .096 inch.

The better 9mm +P+ ammunition can get very close to 357 Sig and 357 Magnum energy and velocity levels and do it with less recoil.

I love the 45 ACP, I cut my teeth on it. It is a good choice for hogs, but a good 147 gr. 9mm +P+ would be a good contender, also. Running at 1175 to 1200 fps, this bullet has serious energy and penetration.