3 Inch Fixed or Folder Blade for Self Protection: Yes or No?

[Conan]

Just hope you will never find yourself in that situation.

[The Mastiff]

Generally i consider defending yourself with a knife like throwing yourself in front of a car, pulling the attacker with you. Both will get hurt pretty bad..Hopefully the attacker worse than you. (unless you have had years of training, even though no training in the world can prepare for the massive adrenaline dump/fine motor skills totally gone/you just freeze like a statue of a real life situation) I'd say the balde lenght is among the least of your worries.

Way to defeatist IMO. Sure dedicated knife fights against salty opponents are things to avoid whenever possible. Most self defense situations are definitely not that though. Even muggings and armed robberies. How you want to resolve any depends on too many things to say "this is how I will do it". The idea is to gain the initiative if you intend to do anything. Many robberies / attacks are set up so that there will be no opportunity to run away. Or even reach for a holstered firearm. If the robbers/assailants are good at their job that is. ( note : we aren't talking about fighting people in bars)

The same adrenaline dump that gives you less fine motor skills will also allow you to keep fighting/attacking past the point where you have taken enough damage to kill you. I have seen people run at olympic speed even after taking what were fatal wounds. Unless the CNS is unplugged people generally don't go down like the movies. I have also seen people with broken bones keep attacking so kneecap or testicle kicks can't be expected to have the effect you think. Pepper and CN/CS gas likewise. Have you ever wondered why people who are stabbed get so many wounds? It's often because they don't stop doing stuff even after 10 or15 deep ( later fatal) stab wounds. First time murders often are at or near panic so they just keep stabbing.

Eyes and Arteries ( or Brain stem/ brain and cervical spine if shooting or clubbing). If you are gonna begin start with something that gives you an advantage ( like making them suddenly blind and traumatized ) . That is if you can't avoid it entirely. Do not think you can't defend yourself without training though. People have been doing it as long as there have been people. Training is a good thing if it can be had and is recommended but if you don't have training and want to survive do what you should always be doing anyways. Looking to gain initiative however you can. Never quit even after you are stabbed or shot. :)

[Doc Dan]

I think a fixed blade that can be easily pushed out of a sheath is a better way to go than a folder, in most cases, and this is why: fine motor skills tend to go away when under stress. A folder takes a bit of fumbling about with, but a fixed blade is just grab and pull.

[James Y]

What is often overlooked in these conversations are the aftermath and the legal ramifications. Of course, nothing is guaranteed, and at the moment one's life is in danger, the most important thing is survival. BUT, if (hopefully) you survive, there WILL be an aftermath, and what knife you used will be brought up in court.

As for freezing in a SD situation, again, that will depend on the person and/or the specific situation. Martial arts training may or may not make a difference. Some people naturally have "it" inside of them that allows them to function decisively and effectively, whether they've had extensive training experience or not. And there are those people who, no matter what type of, or how much training or sport fighting competitions they've done, will either 'freeze' or act/react inappropriately and ineffectually when they need to 'for real'.

There are people who say that if you're up against more than one person, you're automatically doomed. Or if you're up against a man who is taller than you by 3" and heavier by as little as 10 pounds, you automatically don't stand a chance. Of course, size and numbers make a difference, but they aren't everything, and to have that attitude across the board is defeatist. Years ago, I had a personal experience involving multiple attackers (fortunately, none were armed, including myself) that went my way. Although I was strangely calm during the incident, about 30 minutes later, I had an adrenaline dump/'the shakes' for a bit. It was my first experience with 'the shakes'. Prior to that, if someone had asked me, I would have had no idea what my response to a 3-on-1 situation would have been, though I had been in some 1-on-1 situations and fights prior to that.

The best that any training can do is try to approximate, as closely as possible, what a real situation might be like, and give you some experience with violence in a controlled setting. There are certain people who can respond effectively without any particular training at all. There are people who have successfully defended themselves with knives, many or most of whom have never taken a knife SD or combatives course in their lives.

Jim

[Michael Janich]

Shorter blades limit penetration depth, so hitting organs can be an issue (this is why the Yojimbo 2 is longer than the 1)...

Sorry, but not true.

I designed the first Yojimbo before September 11th. At that time, we could still carry knives on airplanes. Under normal security alert levels, the FAA allowed 4-inch blades. Under heightened security, 3-inch blades were allowed. The original Yo was designed to still be legal to carry even under heightened security levels. Although it wasn't released until after September 11th, the design remained consistent to the original.

When I designed the Yo 2, I wanted a handle that was basically the same length as a Delica 4 (so it could be carried horizontally in a back pocket, if desired), but wanted as long a blade as feasible--up to the 3.5-inch Colorado limit. It had nothing to do with reaching internal organs.

In my opinion, understanding human anatomy and focusing on reliable stopping power are the keys to using a knife effectively in self-defense. Once you know what to cut and know why it stops people predictably and reliably, you realize that you don't need that much blade to be effective. I also realized that the medical community--not the martial arts community--is the best source for credible anatomical and trauma-related information. My preferred approach to targeting has been reviewed by trauma surgeons and instructors at the International School of Tactical Medicine. I have also taught it to countless medical professionals and have invited them to correct me if my approach or the anticipated results are off-base. Thankfully, the corroboration I have received continues to support the logic of the method.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Evil D]

Shorter blades limit penetration depth, so hitting organs can be an issue (this is why the Yojimbo 2 is longer than the 1)...

Sorry, but not true.

I designed the first Yojimbo before September 11th. At that time, we could still carry knives on airplanes. Under normal security alert levels, the FAA allowed 4-inch blades. Under heightened security, 3-inch blades were allowed. The original Yo was designed to still be legal to carry even under heightened security levels. Although it wasn't released until after September 11th, the design remained consistent to the original.

When I designed the Yo 2, I wanted a handle that was basically the same length as a Delica 4 (so it could be carried horizontally in a back pocket, if desired), but wanted as long a blade as feasible--up to the 3.5-inch Colorado limit. It had nothing to do with reaching internal organs.

In my opinion, understanding human anatomy and focusing on reliable stopping power are the keys to using a knife effectively in self-defense. Once you know what to cut and know why it stops people predictably and reliably, you realize that you don't need that much blade to be effective. I also realized that the medical community--not the martial arts community--is the best source for credible anatomical and trauma-related information. My preferred approach to targeting has been reviewed by trauma surgeons and instructors at the International School of Tactical Medicine. I have also taught it to countless medical professionals and have invited them to correct me if my approach or the anticipated results are off-base. Thankfully, the corroboration I have received continues to support the logic of the method.

Stay safe,

Mike

Makes sense, I could have swore you mentioned penetration at some point.

[SkullBouncer]

I agree with the majority of input on this thread.

And we all recall what 19 terrorists did with boxcutters on some civilian jetliners on 9/11.

I've learned that 'tactical avoidance' should be considered first, only then followed preferably with a 3" SE MBC rated Blackhawk for instance, in fast thinking, deliberate and forceful deployment when the s*it hits the fan. They do come up on eBay and alternate blade sites here and again if you watch for them -- these were the forerunner to the venerable CHINOOK 1. I own a wide collection of Chinooks 1 and 2, and I also own the described Blackhawk with a GIN-1 3" SE blade encased within a T6 aircraft aluminum housing -- no scales and tough as nails. I have trained Tae Kwon Do, BJJ and Boxing. I train personally with my SD knives fairly regularly, in reverse- and forward grip, if only to stay honed within my technical abilities practiced with the goal in mind to cement effective, reflexive facilitation and finer motor skills. You can do a lot of damage fast with merely a boxing or even an old fashioned street fighting background like me in my younger days -- and a 3" reverse grip knife like the Blackhawk -- slowly training at first and moving up from there to become adept even ten to twenty minutes 2-3 times a week to start with, by yourself in front of a body length mirror preferably or even your TV set done carefully but safely and decisively focused as fits within your bounds of ability you're confident within -- and remember, you don't have to execute a fatal cut / stabbing; only as a last resort. That little SE Blackhawk can cut some aggressor- attacker badly enough to take his focus from you and onto his nasty cut wounds. Quite effective in this regard.

Your 3" or less blade doesn't have to be MBC rated to be an effective weapon -- a leaf blade even like the Persistence I own, in reverse grip or forward, employed as SD can do wonders in the heat of the moment if you don't lose your head, and this fosters the potential- to- kinetically projected, successful deterrence and containment of the threat you may someday face. Always keep this in mind, though - Killing an attacker opens up a wholly serious potential of repercussions themselves in courts- of- law.

My $0.02 cents worth, hope this also helps.

SB / Bruce

[SkullBouncer]

Mr. Janich - profound and exhaustive study and experience speaks volumes here.
I would embrace the chance at more formal blade training as I have discussed with you here and there in the even recent past. Thanks / SB / Bruce

*Edit to add -- my being on 'Alliance Martial Arts' e-mail list I follow to this day, and although I may not reflect all of it I've received, it has opened my eyes to knowledge I otherwise would be lacking. I speak from within the scope of my own learned experience and I want to Highly recommend this resource to all.

[SkullBouncer]

Generally i consider defending yourself with a knife like throwing yourself in front of a car, pulling the attacker with you. Both will get hurt pretty bad..Hopefully the attacker worse than you. (unless you have had years of training, even though no training in the world can prepare for the massive adrenaline dump/fine motor skills totally gone/you just freeze like a statue of a real life situation) I'd say the balde lenght is among the least of your worries.

Way to defeatist IMO. Sure dedicated knife fights against salty opponents are things to avoid whenever possible. Most self defense situations are definitely not that though. Even muggings and armed robberies. How you want to resolve any depends on too many things to say "this is how I will do it". The idea is to gain the initiative if you intend to do anything. Many robberies / attacks are set up so that there will be no opportunity to run away. Or even reach for a holstered firearm. If the robbers/assailants are good at their job that is. ( note : we aren't talking about fighting people in bars)

The same adrenaline dump that gives you less fine motor skills will also allow you to keep fighting/attacking past the point where you have taken enough damage to kill you. I have seen people run at olympic speed even after taking what were fatal wounds. Unless the CNS is unplugged people generally don't go down like the movies. I have also seen people with broken bones keep attacking so kneecap or testicle kicks can't be expected to have the effect you think. Pepper and CN/CS gas likewise. Have you ever wondered why people who are stabbed get so many wounds? It's often because they don't stop doing stuff even after 10 or15 deep ( later fatal) stab wounds. First time murders often are at or near panic so they just keep stabbing.

Eyes and Arteries ( or Brain stem/ brain and cervical spine if shooting or clubbing). If you are gonna begin start with something that gives you an advantage ( like making them suddenly blind and traumatized ) . That is if you can't avoid it entirely. Do not think you can't defend yourself without training though. People have been doing it as long as there have been people. Training is a good thing if it can be had and is recommended but if you don't have training and want to survive do what you should always be doing anyways. Looking to gain initiative however you can. Never quit even after you are stabbed or shot. :)

Excellent insights, Joe. Some undeniable truths I hadn't considered at the time.

Thanks / SB / Bruce