Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#21

Post by JD Spydo »

That's really interesting Halfneck :( I have a lot of family that were in the Military. Most all of my Uncles and two of my Aunts were in WWII. But it wasn't until all the weirdness of the Viet Nam war did I see so much mental illness>> not only my family that were in the military but several of my high school friends and friends I grew up with. There was something about that particular war that caused a lot more mental problems >> but when I fast forward to this debacle in Afghanistan and the other middle east theatres they also are having horrible issues.

My heart goes out to our veterans and why this problem got so far out of hand I'm just completely baffled. But a lot of the scenarios you laid out are probably just the tip of the iceberg unfortunately. There are a lot of veterans organizations that have helped. A radio show I listen to a lot "The Power Hour" was created by a lady who was in the military for a long time>> their website is www.thepowerhour.com. She died a couple of years ago but her successor has continued to do a lot for veterans. There is another guy who is a retired Green Beret that helps vets and his name is J.R. Moore and his website is www.thelibertyman.com
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#22

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That's really interesting Halfneck :( I have a lot of family that were in the Military. Most all of my Uncles and two of my Aunts were in WWII. But it wasn't until all the weirdness of the Viet Nam war did I see so much mental illness>> not only my family that were in the military but several of my high school friends and friends I grew up with. There was something about that particular war that caused a lot more mental problems >> but when I fast forward to this debacle in Afghanistan and the other middle east theatres they also are having horrible issues.
Joe, IMO during WW2 and even Korea a little the concept of war causing troubles was accepted as part of the whole experience of war. Families looked out for each other even when they didn't like each other and tended to keep things out of public view. I have talked to wives whose spouses fought in WW2 and in their 70's even would wake up fighting and screaming to the point the wife would get small bruises and scratches. Up until recently these things were not spoken about publicly . They did much the same with illnesses like cancer and with family members that got arrested or became drunks. Talk to somebody who grew up in the 20's through the 50's and they will tell you the first time they went to a doctor was when they went in the service, or for the women got jobs or had children in hospitals. Go back further and many didn't do even that instead had children at home with a family member or neighbor acting as midwife. Deaths were done in house by family including preparation of the body and for display the coffin was in the living room for visitors paying respect. My grandparents were like this and even though we had changed by then here in the US I was surprised that is still how it was done with my father in law in Ireland in the early 80's.

We as a culture changed during this time.

Joe
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#23

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

The Mastiff wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:44 am
That's really interesting Halfneck :( I have a lot of family that were in the Military. Most all of my Uncles and two of my Aunts were in WWII. But it wasn't until all the weirdness of the Viet Nam war did I see so much mental illness>> not only my family that were in the military but several of my high school friends and friends I grew up with. There was something about that particular war that caused a lot more mental problems >> but when I fast forward to this debacle in Afghanistan and the other middle east theatres they also are having horrible issues.
Joe, IMO during WW2 and even Korea a little the concept of war causing troubles was accepted as part of the whole experience of war. Families looked out for each other even when they didn't like each other and tended to keep things out of public view. I have talked to wives whose spouses fought in WW2 and in their 70's even would wake up fighting and screaming to the point the wife would get small bruises and scratches. Up until recently these things were not spoken about publicly . They did much the same with illnesses like cancer and with family members that got arrested or became drunks. Talk to somebody who grew up in the 20's through the 50's and they will tell you the first time they went to a doctor was when they went in the service, or for the women got jobs or had children in hospitals. Go back further and many didn't do even that instead had children at home with a family member or neighbor acting as midwife. Deaths were done in house by family including preparation of the body and for display the coffin was in the living room for visitors paying respect. My grandparents were like this and even though we had changed by then here in the US I was surprised that is still how it was done with my father in law in Ireland in the early 80's.

We as a culture changed during this time.

Joe
This is a very interesting topic in and of itself.

How can we have a societal balance where some of these things go back to the way it was but where things that truly need to come out and be exposed, are, without going to the extremes on either end?

For example: An old woman once told me she was the survivor of horrible physical abuse by her husband; she grew up in that basic time period you mentioned. She said it was an embarassment to even talk about it with close friends and neighbors and she and her family tried to hide it. She said when her husband finally died of old age she felt a great relief. What a sad way to live :(

On the other hand, we have situations where societal intervention becomes overly nosy and even harmful. Another real-life example: I once read of a situation where child welfare authorities were called on a mother because her child showed up at some day-care thing with old thrift store clothes and their shoes untied. That is ridiculous and an abuse of the system that should be used to protect truly abused and victimized children. Another one: There was a parent who was angry at their ex who had custody of their children, and they called the child welfare and filed a false complaint against the ex , making up false claims, just because they hated the ex. That is another abuse of the system and uses up resources that could be focused on helping truly at-risk children.

In regards to the old war veterans and post traumatic stress, I too have been told by some about how back then they just called it "Shell Shock" and often times swept it under the rug.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#24

Post by tvenuto »

I'm with Deacon on this one, although I know it's unpopular to say. If you have taken care of all of your responsibilities I see no moral obligation to keep living or positively contributing to society. Thought experiment: do you see anything morally wrong with a single man going off onto a large property that he owns or is un-owned, unplugging forever, and dying at some point with no further contact with society? What is the difference, to society, between that and suicide? Just a thought experiment. That being said, I also think that having kids is a lifetime responsibility, so that certainly complicates things if you have children. I do wonder if in the future it will be de-stigmatized...

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I also agree with D, we do a positively abysmal job of treating mental health in the US. We should absolutely improve on that, both to help those considering suicide and other acts that might harm those around them.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#25

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tv, that being said, and say people agree with that, how would one prevent the "slippery slope" situation in which on one hand people may choose to do that, vs, people being pressured into it by those who consider them to be a "waste" of resources?
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#26

Post by James Y »

The US involvement in the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been going on for nearly 17 years now. It is the single longest conflict the US has been involved in, with a great many military veterans having had a higher number of deployments than US veterans of any other war. That is also a big factor.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#27

Post by The Mastiff »

I'm with Deacon on this one, although I know it's unpopular to say. If you have taken care of all of your responsibilities I see no moral obligation to keep living or positively contributing to society.
I completely agree. It's no one else s business including and especially the governments. Provided they are not taking others lives there is no legitimate reason for the government to have any say.
how would one prevent the "slippery slope" situation in which on one hand people may choose to do that, vs, people being pressured into it by those who consider them to be a "waste" of resources?
Are there any real examples you have seen or heard of this kind of thing happening? I have never been around people who talked like that except jokingly. Is it a real thing now? :eek:

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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#28

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Yup.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/de ... ad-lawsuit

https://evolutionnews.org/2018/03/canad ... uthanasia/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/docto ... re-choices

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... a-patient/

https://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/04/tho ... anasia-ok/

It has become epidemic. Those nations that have allowed "assisted suicide" have gone from choice of the individual only, to forcing it on people.

How do you have a balance between stopping such things, and, where people who may want to do that can?
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#29

Post by Halfneck »

Re: WW2 Vets vs. current Vets.

If you look at the percentage of people who serving during WW2 compared to the most recent conflicts you would see a big decrease. If I recall only 0.45% of the US populace has served during the recent conflict compared to around 12% during WW2. For returning veterans that makes for a larger informal support group upon return.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#30

Post by The Meat man »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:24 pm
Yup.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/de ... ad-lawsuit

https://evolutionnews.org/2018/03/canad ... uthanasia/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/docto ... re-choices

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... a-patient/

https://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/04/tho ... anasia-ok/

It has become epidemic. Those nations that have allowed "assisted suicide" have gone from choice of the individual only, to forcing it on people.

How do you have a balance between stopping such things, and, where people who may want to do that can?

SEF, it is a very slippery slope indeed. To those who support "assisted suicide", this is something to ponder.

Once human life has been denied any special significance, there is no balance between assisted suicide and eugenics. To kill, or pressure into killing, the weak and unproductive members of society, is nothing more nor less than being a philosophically consistent Darwinist.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#31

Post by tvenuto »

The Meat man wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:09 pm
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:24 pm
Yup.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/de ... ad-lawsuit

https://evolutionnews.org/2018/03/canad ... uthanasia/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/docto ... re-choices

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... a-patient/

https://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/04/tho ... anasia-ok/

It has become epidemic. Those nations that have allowed "assisted suicide" have gone from choice of the individual only, to forcing it on people.

How do you have a balance between stopping such things, and, where people who may want to do that can?

SEF, it is a very slippery slope indeed. To those who support "assisted suicide", this is something to ponder.

Once human life has been denied any special significance, there is no balance between assisted suicide and eugenics. To kill, or pressure into killing, the weak and unproductive members of society, is nothing more nor less than being a philosophically consistent Darwinist.
I think to say: "this is so sacred that only you can chose what to do with it" gives it incredible significance. Sex is like this. All sex must be consensual, and you are not required to have sex. I think someone's life is like their sexuality, so immensely significant that it must be solely up to them. And like sex I would be assiduously against a minor being allowed to take their own life. There are certain things that you really must gain life experience to be able to have the ability to make an informed choice. We should be tending more carefully to the minds of our youth, that's for sure.

And "assisted suicide" is very different than state sponsored murder.

I've warned my wife that the moment I feel like I'm a burden on my children or society I'll grab a knife and a shotgun and walk off into the woods never to be seen again. My "long walk" if you will. I've coached and mentored far too many adults who have become caretakers to their parents, their own lives put on hold indefinitely.

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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#32

Post by Skidoosh »

Our culture is shaped by technology. Look at the medium we are using for this discussion. The online world has lead to a lack of connection and meaningful relationships. This magnifies the isolation of feeling alone and uncared for. Life is precious, it either all counts or nothing counts.

Suicide never heals the pain, hurt or isolation, it simply passes it along to people around you.

Look at the larger picture, suicide rates per 100,000 by the WHO show a larger growing problem outside of the Western World. Ironically places like Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria have a relatively low suicide rate.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#33

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Do you think this is a true statement or not? Someone said the real reason that no government allows a person to kill themselves/commit suicide, is because governments and large corporations want people to remain alive and working if possible so they can purchase consumer goods/products and pay their money into their bills and other costs, taxes, utility bills, purchasing consumer goods and food, etc, and so they can use the people as tools.

The same person said they want you to remain alive but they do not want you to be truly happy and satisfied. If you are truly happy and satisfied you will not continue to struggle to improve because there is no improvement and no struggle necessary. You are at your best, as best as humans can be in this world, and that would take away your desire to continue to run their race and keep things moving along.

The person said if the government not only allowed but even provided people with the means to die painlessly, then the incentive to do so would be too great and this would undermine the above goals they have for the people.

The bottom line of what this person is claiming is that the society, business world, and government do not want people to be able to end their physical lives easilly and painlessly is because they want to keep them alive to use them. What do you say to that? Is there truth to it?

They said this is the same reason why dictatorships like North Korea and the Soviet communists did not allow their citizens to leave of their own free will. You would think the rational act would be for those governments to say "If you do not want to participate in our Communism, then leave. Goodbye." Instead, they used military force to stop people from leaving. This person said the communists needed these people as their slaves and servants.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#34

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I'm not a huge fan of medicare for all. Too many issues and one size does not fit all. Non citizens should not qualify. If you already have health insurance and want to keep it - you should be able too, and insurance companies should be able to compete across state lines. For the people with income problems, preconditions or other serious healthcare needs, there should be a category which takes care of those people under medicare. 100% of the people should be covered.

Mental health should be available under every plan, and 100% of the people should be covered.

Having a mental health related issue is akin to having a heart attack. You cannot put it off until a Dr is available two to three months from now, it needs to be tended to immediately.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#35

Post by Doc Dan »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:12 pm
Do you think this is a true statement or not? Someone said the real reason that no government allows a person to kill themselves/commit suicide, is because governments and large corporations want people to remain alive and working if possible so they can purchase consumer goods/products and pay their money into their bills and other costs, taxes, utility bills, purchasing consumer goods and food, etc, and so they can use the people as tools.

The same person said they want you to remain alive but they do not want you to be truly happy and satisfied. If you are truly happy and satisfied you will not continue to struggle to improve because there is no improvement and no struggle necessary. You are at your best, as best as humans can be in this world, and that would take away your desire to continue to run their race and keep things moving along.

The person said if the government not only allowed but even provided people with the means to die painlessly, then the incentive to do so would be too great and this would undermine the above goals they have for the people.

The bottom line of what this person is claiming is that the society, business world, and government do not want people to be able to end their physical lives easilly and painlessly is because they want to keep them alive to use them. What do you say to that? Is there truth to it?

They said this is the same reason why dictatorships like North Korea and the Soviet communists did not allow their citizens to leave of their own free will. You would think the rational act would be for those governments to say "If you do not want to participate in our Communism, then leave. Goodbye." Instead, they used military force to stop people from leaving. This person said the communists needed these people as their slaves and servants.
That is Ill considered. The Reason that governments don’t allow suicide is because number one life is precious and number two this is basically self murder and murder is already illegal. This is especially true in countries that have been dominated by Christianity as the basis for moral law because the commandment was You shall not murder. Normally when a person commits suicide they are not in the right thinking mind and need to be protected from doing something that is Irrevocable And unnecessary.
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JD Spydo
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#36

Post by JD Spydo »

For a long time my personal beliefs made be think that physician assisted suicide was not a viable option. I'm starting to change my opinion on that subject. In the past 3 years I've had 3 people extremely dear to me die just totally horrible deaths and suffered beyond belief.

I truly now believe that if you are an adult in your right mind and choose to no longer fight an insidious disease it should be your own option to end it all. If you and your doctor are certain there is no medical hope for getting better I now believe that a person should have that option. Now I don't believe anyone should be able to end their life just because they are depressed or if life just isn't going their way that they can take an easy way out>> no that's a completely different scenario all together.

When you're in so much pain to where high powered narcotic pain killers won't even give you relief I do believe that is a completely different circumstance and they need to take another look at it IMO.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#37

Post by JD Spydo »

James Y wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:48 pm
The US involvement in the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been going on for nearly 17 years now. It is the single longest conflict the US has been involved in, with a great many military veterans having had a higher number of deployments than US veterans of any other war. That is also a big factor.
That's a great point Jim. It's been about 6 months or so but I heard a statistic of veterans committing suicide on a daily basis here in the USA and that number was staggering. The VA does such as abysmal job at dealing with mental health issues of our veterans. I forget the exact number of veterans committing suicide but it was well over a 100 a day>> that I do remember. That's just inexcusable for a government that subjects our brave soldiers to a never ending war scenario and then come back to a job that they can barely survive on. I don't even see how recruiters can get anyone to sign on the dotted line anymore.

And I come from a family with a rich military history. Just about all my uncles on both sides of the family were in WWII, Korean War of the early 50s and several cousins in Viet Nam. So please don't label me as being non-patriotic because that just isn't the case. But this problem of our veterans not getting the help they need simply must stop and the military absolutely must take responsibility.
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Re: Horrible topic but important: Why so many suicides?

#38

Post by James Y »

Joe, I agree that it's shameful to ask and demand so much of others, then give them a pittance and inadequate care when their service is done. And even that little is given grudgingly.

IMO, another probable reason for the growing suicide epidemic is social media. Many kids (and some adults, too) are bullied relentlessly in social media. Especially many younger people whose identities become so tied up into their online images/ personas, that many find it almost impossible,to detach from it.

Also, when viewing other people on social media, 'everyone' presents happy, perfect lives to their online followers, and many people who place a high importance on social media will view themselves and their lives as horrible in comparison. They don't see the "warts" or realize the fact that nobody's lives are as picture-perfect as most like to present on Twitter, Facebook, or whatever else they share on. Nobody's lives are as idyllic as most like to show online. All you have to do is see how many celebrities lead screwed-up lives to see that. But with people who aren't so famous, they can present a picture of lives filled with perfection and fulfillment that is harder to crack, precisely because they aren't as well-known or tracked by the media hounds.

The truth is, the images that people present online are just that; images. Most of them only post whatever makes them and their lives look the best, or even manufacture untruths to create and maintain an illusion. When one loses sight of that and takes the illusion for reality, then it can be easy for certain people with low self-esteem to feel like they and their lives are worthless.

Jim
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