One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#1

Post by Doc Dan »

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/22879 ... e-time.htm

These are noted scientists from two top universities saying this.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#2

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The actual research paper is not as straight forward in its conclusion or assertions as the news article. It’s rather long and technical but the authors’ conclusions are worth reading to get a different view from the news writer’s understanding.
————

Summary and conclusion
Science greedily seizes simplicity among complexities. Speciation occurs via alter- native pathways distinct in terms of the number of genes involved and the abruptness of transitions [148]. Nuclear variance in modern humans varies by loci in part due to unequal selection [149] and the linkage of neutral sites to those that undergo differential selection. Complexity is the norm when dealing with variance of the nuclear ensemble [150-154]. It is remarkable that despite the diversity of speciation mechanisms and path- ways the mitochondrial sequence variance in almost all extant animal species should be constrained within narrow parameters.
Mostly synonymous and apparently neutral variation in mitochondria within spe- cies shows a similar quantitative pattern across the entire animal kingdom. The pattern is that that most—over 90% in the best characterized groups—of the approximately five million barcode sequences cluster into groups with between 0.0% and 0.5% variance as measured by APD, with an average APD of 0.2%.
Modern humans are a low-average animal species in terms of the APD. The molecu- lar clock as a heuristic marks 1% sequence divergence per million years which is consis- tent with evidence for a clonal stage of human mitochondria between 100,000- 200,000 years ago and the 0.1% APD found in the modern human population [34, 155, 156]. A conjunction of factors could bring about the same result. However, one should not as a
first impulse seek a complex and multifaceted explanation for one of the clearest, most data rich and general facts in all of evolution. The simple hypothesis is that the same explanation offered for the sequence variation found among modern humans applies equally to the modern populations of essentially all other animal species. Namely that the extant population, no matter what its current size or similarity to fossils of any age, has expanded from mitochondrial uniformity within the past 200,000 years
Nonhuman animals, as well as bacteria and yeast, are often considered “model sys- tems” whose results can be extrapolated to humans. The direction of inference is re- versible. Fossil evidence for mammalian evolution in Africa implies that most species started with small founding populations and later expanded [157] and sequence analysis has been interpreted to suggest that the last ice age created widespread conditions for a subsequent expansion [158]. The characteristics of contemporary mitochondrial vari- ance may represent a rare snapshot of animal life evolving during a special period. Al- ternatively, the similarity in variance within species could be a sign or a consequence of coevolution [159].
Mitochondria drive many important processes of life [160-162]. There is irony but also grandeur in this view that, precisely because they have no phenotype, synonymous codon variations in mitochondria reveal the structure of species and the mechanism of speciation. This vista of evolution is best seen from the passenger seat
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#3

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Do you have a link to the actual paper?
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#4

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I got the link from the news story, near the end:

https://phe.rockefeller.edu/news/wp-con ... educed.pdf
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#5

Post by MichaelScott »

I got the link from the news story, near the end:

https://phe.rockefeller.edu/news/wp-con ... educed.pdf
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#6

Post by TomAiello »

Weird. When I clicked on the link at the end of the story (which should have been the one to the original paper) I ended up at some advertisement site.

Thanks for the link.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Very interesting.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#8

Post by shunsui »

To me there's two types of scientists:

The one's that can explain simply what they mean.

The one's who write something that means nothing to anyone.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Post by Doc Dan »

It is a really interesting topic and I think worthy of more investigation.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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O.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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It appears the main issue turns on the definition of speciation and if mitochondria plays a significant role or not. I don’t know enough about the authors’ claims to comment. Their 200,000 year time horizon limits it so that the currently accepted model of speciation and natural selection are not really impacted.

There are two types of people, the ones who can extrapolate from incomplete information.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#12

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Well thank you, Doc. This is very interesting.

I believe in searching for truth and we should never allow personal biases and other issues to get in the way of where the search for truth leads.

That being said, I have studied every conceivable belief and idea in relation to the creation of the world and the creation of life, and I am convinced from my in-depth scientific studies that Darwinian evolution is patently nonsense and unscientific, and the real reason people adhere to it so strongly is not because of evidence but because "men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."

I am not seeking to create an argument about religion but here is a very basic factual refutation of Darwinism:

1 Based on the laws of information science and mathematics, it is impossible for laws to come about without a Law Maker, it is impossible for designs to come about without a Designer, it is impossible for information to come about on its own without an Informational Intelligence behind it.

If anyone with even the smallest bit of sense were to find a computer integrated circuit chip or a Spyderco folding knife on the ground they would immediatelly recognize and understand that this is a manufactured product that was designed by intelligent designers and put together by intelligent pre-planning. The simplest living cell and organic tissues such as neurological tissues are hugely more intricate and complex than a folding knife or a computer chip or a car engine, and bare logic dictates that one must apply the same logical consistencies to the "natural world" and the things within it that one applies to the manufactured world of man-designed objects and artifacts.

2 Human beings do not have a good understanding of time as much as we could possibly have and how time is flexible and elastic to an extent, and that the firmament of space which is clearly not empty and devoid except in a visible sense to human eyes, can alter the rate of time flow.

3 DNA requires Proteins to construct it and proteins require DNA to guide their construction. Enzymes do not assemble out of nothing. The mathematical probabilities against even a single or a few protein molecules to self-assemble from random amino acid molecules on their own are so huge as to make it nonsensically impossible to even conceive of the idea that organic biological life came about on its own. Time and "chance" do not answer this problem. The critics and opposers to this will and have attempted to fabricate fictional UNOBSERVED scenarios like "Pre DNA, RNA based worlds" where RNA molecules catalyzed the first proteins. This has never been observed and is fantasy. And even then, the deeper levels of genetic information have to come from some source of intelligence.

Life does not come from non life. Life comes from pre existing life. This is a fundamental foundation of biology. God does not have that problem. He is the Source of Life and He is Eternally- Self Living and Self Existent, and so He as the Source Creator of life and the processes of life answers that issue.

4 Those whom claim life came from non life with no intelligence behind it are basically saying the value of life is nil because its all rocks basically. That is another topic altogether.

I do like the idea of making "pseudo life", life like machines for humans to program to carry out functions.

Imagine a "Man Made Knife Making Embryological Factory" that assembles basic molecules into brand new super strong stainless steel knives at low low costs.

PS: And from my studies and observations, selection and mutation are real processes. The thing with them is this: They do not have creative power to produce new genetic information in biological species. That's the thing. There IS change over time in living creatures but these changes are unable to produce new genetic information. Examples are often given of "evolution" in fruit flies, bacterial antiobiotic resistance, moths on trees, bacteria able to metabolize nylon, and other examples. These are not and never can be examples of the creation of new genetic information through mutation and natural selection.

Mutation and selection are conservative, down-grading processes that take away genetic information. They do not create new genetic information.

In order for upwards Darwinism as Darwin himself taught and believed to occur, one would have to add new genetic information which cannot be done without an intelligence behind it.

Any beneficial mutation that comes as a result of these processes is limited and in a wider area of surviving variables the creature has lost survivability.

Another example often given by proponents of Darwinism are what are called "Vestigial organs". Many years ago these were touted as proofs that humans and animals were evolving into more complex creatures from simpler creatures. But further examination showed that these organs do have uses.

Pelvic bones in cetaceans (whales) are anchor points for genital organs for mating.
The human appendix used to be called useless and vestigial but in truth it has uses, even the folks at National Geographic admit this:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new ... ans_2.html

Another problem is that proponents of Darwinism make false assumptions when making judgement-calls on what they call "bad designs".

Here is an example for you:

https://creation.com/recurrent-laryngeal-nerve-design
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Something else I would love to see: Living Steel. Imagine steel that has the capacity to grow and adapt, like living biology does. Self Repairing and Self Maintaining stainless steel, Doc. What do you say to that?
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#14

Post by tvenuto »

SEF how many times do people need to post terminator gifs in response to your posts? How many times?!

Image
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

tvenuto wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:24 pm
SEF how many times do people need to post terminator gifs in response to your posts? How many times?!

Image

I know, that's the flaw in it :)

Beware artificial intelligence plus living metal.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Also beware of ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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SEF, there are already metals that are in a seemingly liquid state such as mercury that we have yet to understand their full potential. There is no telling what we will be able to do as our knowledge grows. Things people laugh at now will make people in the future laugh at us for laughing. One day it may be possible, with the proper power supply and proper understanding, to have a metallic substance change from one state to another and one form to another. After all, solid is just one state of matter and liquid and gas are others. Most things can exist in these 3 states, but heat is required at our current level of technology. We may, one day, develop a material that can change with little heat involved and have it programmed with a computer to change to whatever we wish at whatever moment.
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#18

Post by shunsui »

Meanwhile on Barsoom...

https://youtu.be/cXLk879Glbk
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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

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Most things can exist in these 3 states, but heat is required at our current level of technology. We may, one day, develop a material that can change with little heat involved and have it programmed with a computer to change to whatever we wish at whatever moment.
Or lots of pressure. Have we ever made metallic helium or hydrogen on this planet yet? It's difficult seeing how this can ever happen on a practical level. Material costs and energy costs will have to come down before that kind of thing becomes practical if at all. Then there are the other 30 or 40 elements we have yet to get to know. We are still infants science wise.

Re: the original post? First thing that came to mind was panspermia/intelligent design. The whole lightning hitting swamp gas/organic stew thing just doesn't cut it for me.

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Re: One for SEF: 90% of Species came into being at the same time

#20

Post by Doc Dan »

The Mastiff wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:42 am
Most things can exist in these 3 states, but heat is required at our current level of technology. We may, one day, develop a material that can change with little heat involved and have it programmed with a computer to change to whatever we wish at whatever moment.
Or lots of pressure. Have we ever made metallic helium or hydrogen on this planet yet? It's difficult seeing how this can ever happen on a practical level. Material costs and energy costs will have to come down before that kind of thing becomes practical if at all. Then there are the other 30 or 40 elements we have yet to get to know. We are still infants science wise.

Re: the original post? First thing that came to mind was panspermia/intelligent design. The whole lightning hitting swamp gas/organic stew thing just doesn't cut it for me.

Joe
Yeah, it is not a well thought out idea that lightning could do that. This reminds me of a bad Sci-Fi movie. All the lightning would do in reality is burn it to nothing in the intense heat.
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