Smith and Wesson.

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guywithopinion
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#41

Post by guywithopinion »

Doc Dan wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 6:38 pm
Ruger is also very good, but very heavy for size and caliber (except the LCR).
Personally I would not hesitate to buy a new Ruger or Smith & Wesson if they made something today that I wanted (and haven't hesitated). However, I feel like this is sort of an internet meme at this point, from a steak-themed ad campaign S&W had years ago. A Ruger GP100 in .357 in any given barrel length is for all intents exactly the same size and weight as an L-framed S&W (686 or 586). There is nothing heavy or large about it. They no longer make the Security Six, which was slightly heavier and larger than a K-frame. However, Ruger also never expressed concern over that firearm's ability to handle magnum loads (more in a bit on that).

The Super Redhawk is a significantly smaller and lighter gun than an X-frame S&W. Both are able to contain the incredible 65,000 PSI MAP of the .454 Casull, though the S&W is of course big enough to also chamber the much longer .460 Magnum that has the same MAP specification. But Ruger puts 6 holes in their cylinder vs just 5. They are not exactly apples to apples as the S&W is in the longer .460 and the longer and larger .500, but I do think it illustrates that Ruger can make a very strong and relatively light product in spite of the generalizations about casting vs forging.

S&W specifically (and successfully) petitioned SAAMI to lower the MAP of both the .357 and the .44 Magnum out of concern for their K and N-frame revolvers. So one could reverse your generalization about Rugers being heavy for caliber and instead suggest S&W's are weak for caliber. There's also more anecdotal evidence, things like blast shields being cut through on aluminum frame guns like the 329, etc. (However, I think it's cool S&W makes guns like that in the first place, and it's not unreasonable to expect they can't handle the same steady use as an all steel gun will.)

As far as the original question by the OP, that last bit would only bother me if I planned to shoot heavy reloaded .44 Mag, or boutique ammo like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, etc. I don't have any concerns with shooting powerful factory loads (like American Eagle) from my N-frame, and haven't thus far come to regret that. I do save the stout 300gr reloads and such for my Super Redhawk, though the S&W may handle them just fine (the internet has me worried).
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm
The cylinder is certainly long enough and it is a sturdy gun. I am sure the answer is no and I doubt any gunsmith would do it but if S&W can make a 44 mag L frame I don’t see why Ruger can’t make a 44 mag GP100.
The .44 Special actually has a longer maximum cartridge length than the .44 Magnum. So the cylinder would definitely be long enough. However, I would imagine if Ruger thought it could handle it, they would have reamed it as a Magnum. The barrel shank is a lot thinner on the GP100 in .44 than in .357. Smith & Wesson solved this on the model 69 by using a two-piece barrel, which allowed for a much thicker barrel shank than would otherwise be possible. However, it is still thinner than an N-frame, for example.

Who knows if Ruger will ever do this or not. 6 months ago people said the same thing about 7-shot cylinders, maybe the Ruger couldn't handle them, etc. Then they released the 7-shot .357 GP100.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#42

Post by MacLaren »

Thanx guywithopinion
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Doc Dan
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#43

Post by Doc Dan »

guywithopinion wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:03 am
Doc Dan wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 6:38 pm
Ruger is also very good, but very heavy for size and caliber (except the LCR).
Personally I would not hesitate to buy a new Ruger or Smith & Wesson if they made something today that I wanted (and haven't hesitated). However, I feel like this is sort of an internet meme at this point, from a steak-themed ad campaign S&W had years ago. A Ruger GP100 in .357 in any given barrel length is for all intents exactly the same size and weight as an L-framed S&W (686 or 586). There is nothing heavy or large about it. They no longer make the Security Six, which was slightly heavier and larger than a K-frame. However, Ruger also never expressed concern over that firearm's ability to handle magnum loads (more in a bit on that).

The Super Redhawk is a significantly smaller and lighter gun than an X-frame S&W. Both are able to contain the incredible 65,000 PSI MAP of the .454 Casull, though the S&W is of course big enough to also chamber the much longer .460 Magnum that has the same MAP specification. But Ruger puts 6 holes in their cylinder vs just 5. They are not exactly apples to apples as the S&W is in the longer .460 and the longer and larger .500, but I do think it illustrates that Ruger can make a very strong and relatively light product in spite of the generalizations about casting vs forging.

S&W specifically (and successfully) petitioned SAAMI to lower the MAP of both the .357 and the .44 Magnum out of concern for their K and N-frame revolvers. So one could reverse your generalization about Rugers being heavy for caliber and instead suggest S&W's are weak for caliber. There's also more anecdotal evidence, things like blast shields being cut through on aluminum frame guns like the 329, etc. (However, I think it's cool S&W makes guns like that in the first place, and it's not unreasonable to expect they can't handle the same steady use as an all steel gun will.)

As far as the original question by the OP, that last bit would only bother me if I planned to shoot heavy reloaded .44 Mag, or boutique ammo like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, etc. I don't have any concerns with shooting powerful factory loads (like American Eagle) from my N-frame, and haven't thus far come to regret that. I do save the stout 300gr reloads and such for my Super Redhawk, though the S&W may handle them just fine (the internet has me worried).
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm
The cylinder is certainly long enough and it is a sturdy gun. I am sure the answer is no and I doubt any gunsmith would do it but if S&W can make a 44 mag L frame I don’t see why Ruger can’t make a 44 mag GP100.
The .44 Special actually has a longer maximum cartridge length than the .44 Magnum. So the cylinder would definitely be long enough. However, I would imagine if Ruger thought it could handle it, they would have reamed it as a Magnum. The barrel shank is a lot thinner on the GP100 in .44 than in .357. Smith & Wesson solved this on the model 69 by using a two-piece barrel, which allowed for a much thicker barrel shank than would otherwise be possible. However, it is still thinner than an N-frame, for example.

Who knows if Ruger will ever do this or not. 6 months ago people said the same thing about 7-shot cylinders, maybe the Ruger couldn't handle them, etc. Then they released the 7-shot .357 GP100.
What? The 44 Mag case length is 1.285 and the 44 Spec is 1.16 in length. The Mag case is also stronger. The standard Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel weighs 40oz. The current S&W M19 weighs 37oz. The M686 weighs 39 oz so it is close (6 shot). The old Ruger Security Six weighed 33oz. (All revolvers quoted with the same barrel length). The Ruger Redhawk 44 Mag with a 5.5" barrel weighs 49oz and a S&W 629 44 Mag with a 6" barrel weighs 45oz. So, I think you got your figures mixed up.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#44

Post by guywithopinion »

Doc Dan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:01 am
What? The 44 Mag case length is 1.285 and the 44 Spec is 1.16 in length. The Mag case is also stronger.
Cartridge length, not case length.

http://saami.org/specifications_and_inf ... FPandR.pdf on page 54-55 if you don't believe me.

.44 Magnum maximum cartridge length: 1.610"
.44 Special maximum cartridge length: 1.615"

The comment was about the cylinder being long enough. If it is long enough for a .44 Special cartridge at maximum length not to poke out the end, it is long enough for a .44 Magnum cartridge not to poke out the end. Brass strength has nothing to do with this point.
Doc Dan wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 10:01 am
The standard Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel weighs 40oz. The current S&W M19 weighs 37oz. The M686 weighs 39 oz so it is close (6 shot). The old Ruger Security Six weighed 33oz. (All revolvers quoted with the same barrel length). The Ruger Redhawk 44 Mag with a 5.5" barrel weighs 49oz and a S&W 629 44 Mag with a 6" barrel weighs 45oz. So, I think you got your figures mixed up.
I said a GP100 and an L-frame S&W weigh, for all intents, the same. You just confirmed a 4.2" GP100 weighs 40 oz as does a 4" 686 (39.7 oz is 40 oz not 39 oz). That is an L-frame S&W. The model 19 is a K-frame and thus has nothing to do with my statement (also the K-frames with the traditional barrel were lighter than the new two-piece ones, FYI). I made no comment about the N-frame vs the Redhawk. Perhaps you got your reading mixed up.
guywithopinion
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#45

Post by guywithopinion »

FWIW, your comment on the model 19 weight definitely surprised me. S&W does show that it is almost as heavy as the 686. I checked Ruger and his Guns and they list the weight of the 4" Security Six at 33.5 oz. My recollection was guns like the Model 13 and Model 10 were a couple ounces lighter (barely over 30 oz). But I don't have any old S&W catalogs and my initial web searching hasn't come up with anything from before S&W dropped the .357 chambering in K-frame firearms. Maybe they were a lot closer in weight than I thought (though that does not bolster the argument that Rugers are overly heavy for a given cartridge)

Edit: S&W lists the "classic" Model 10 at 34.4 oz, and it has the traditional barrel/frame setup. Though S&W also shortens the cylinders of .38 Special models vs their .357 counterparts, so who knows... Maybe my recollection is off.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#46

Post by Tdog »

The model 60 and 66 were both great guns, but I preferred the 3913 to both.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#47

Post by kbuzbee »

MacLaren wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:37 am

Awesome. Ain't nothing like that .44 Mag power.
Well.... my 500 is “like” it, only MORE, haha ;)

Great gun.

Ken
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#48

Post by MacLaren »

kbuzbee wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:00 am
MacLaren wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:37 am

Awesome. Ain't nothing like that .44 Mag power.
Well.... my 500 is “like” it, only MORE, haha ;)

Great gun.

Ken
Hehehe......to me, the 500 S&W is more like a high powered rifle.
It's just waaaaay out there.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#49

Post by Doc Dan »

I have never fired a 500 S&W and I am not going to go looking for opportunities, either. I have seen a 45-70 full house load fired in a TC handgun and that thing would really set a person back a step or two.
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#50

Post by kbuzbee »

MacLaren wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:48 am

Hehehe......to me, the 500 S&W is more like a high powered rifle.
It's just waaaaay out there.
Yeah, there’s a case to be made there. It’s a whole lot of fun though. Kinda like having a stick of dynamite go off in your hand, haha. But your hand still works afterward.

Ken
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Re: Smith and Wesson.

#51

Post by MacLaren »

kbuzbee wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:14 am
MacLaren wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 9:48 am

Hehehe......to me, the 500 S&W is more like a high powered rifle.
It's just waaaaay out there.
Yeah, there’s a case to be made there. It’s a whole lot of fun though. Kinda like having a stick of dynamite go off in your hand, haha. But your hand still works afterward.

Ken
Oh heck yeah!! I would LOVE to shoot one sometime.
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