Back door Canadian knife ban?

[Liquid Cobra]

If this is enforced it basically means the end of this hobby for me.

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications ... 1-eng.html

See below:

Notification of Canadian International Trade Tribunal Decision on Centrifugal Opening Knives
Customs Notice 18-01
Ottawa, January 5, 2018

1. This Notice is to advise interested parties that the Canadian International Trade Tribunal (CITT) has rendered a decision in Appeal No. AP-2017-012, T. LaPlante v. President of the Canada Border Services Agency regarding knives which open automatically by centrifugal force (centrifugal knives).

2. In accordance with subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code and the CITT’s recent decision in T. LaPlante, the CBSA resolves that centrifugal knives will be classified as prohibited weapons if the following conditions are met:

a: knife has a blade that opens by centrifugal force, when the blade is released from the handle into the fully ejected and locked position with a simple and brisk outwardly flick of the wrist; and

b:it includes knives that require some preliminary or simultaneous minimal manipulation of either a flipper or other non-edged parts of the blade.

3. Please be advised that the CBSA will immediately prohibit the importation of all knives that open as per the CITT’s decision. For more detailed information concerning the decision, please consult the decision posted on the Tribunal’s website at: CITT Appeal No. AP-2017-012.

4. For further information regarding the interpretation of the CITT’s decision, please contact:

Commercial Programs Directorate
Other Government Department Programs Unit
Canada Border Services Agency
171 Slater Avenue, 8th Floor
Ottawa, ON K1P 5H7

Telephone: 613-954-7631

E-mail: Patricia.Claeys@cbsa-asfc.gc.ca

The CBSA’s policy on the importation of prohibited weapons, is available in Memorandum D19-13-2, Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices. The Memoranda D19-13-2 will be revised to reflect the CITT decision on centrifugal opening knives.

[wrdwrght]

Ease/speed of deployment seems to be the offending quality, and Spydies do seem to be among the offenders.

I find this hysterical restriction from on high to be the real offense, but that's the American in me. The Canadian in me remembers a stark absence in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that got added to the repatriated Constitution.

Still, I hope Spyderco can calm the waters in its inevitable appeal. More immediately, I wonder if a UKPK will cause me problems when next I cross the border to visit my daughter and her family in Toronto.

[wrdwrght]

From r/canadaguns: https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/com ... h=5cb823df

[Liquid Cobra]

From r/canadaguns: https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/com ... h=5cb823df

Thanks for the link! Enough people start talking about this, maybe something can be done.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

What are practical ways around this, when it comes to the types of knives themselves? On the surface it seems very bleak and all-encompassing. Basically it would effect both lock blades and non lockblades. Could a Spyderco user somehow tighten the blade up to where it would require two hands to open it? I know it takes the ease of fast opening away. Or, could Spyderco make "Canada-Safe" Duplicates of the favorite knives, but with a tiny trademarked hole not designed to open it with one hand, but, that gives the knife user the same feel and function of the same knife? Example: An Endure or Pacific Salt without the working opening hole, but, with all of the other features the same, and, the mechanism tightened up so you have to use two hands to open it? Or will that not work or be practical?

[SharpieB]

Our weapon laws are nuts. I can open carry my Kershaw machete with an 18” blade, but can’t import a folder with 2.5” blade that can be flicked open. Okie dokie. :rolleyes:

All of my Benchmades and Spydercos I import from the US have their pivots tightened. I always ask for this to be done in the shipping notes. My BenchmDe Griptilian couldn’t be opened without 2 hands when delivered and a 2 second torx adjustment later, it opens with a light flick.

[Liquid Cobra]

That won’t make a difference...

From the ruling:

Finally, the Tribunal has recognized that the determination of whether a knife is a prohibited weapon should not turn on easily adjustable features of an individual knife (such as the tightness of a pivot screw) when the overall design of a model is to render such knives generally capable of opening with centrifugal force.

[SharpieB]

That won’t make a difference...

From the ruling:

Finally, the Tribunal has recognized that the determination of whether a knife is a prohibited weapon should not turn on easily adjustable features of an individual knife (such as the tightness of a pivot screw) when the overall design of a model is to render such knives generally capable of opening with centrifugal force.

Be interesting to see if this is enforced. If so, W&W, S&R, HoK, etc. knife selling days would be very limited.

[bacmapei]

Thanks to the OP for communicating this decision. I have started to draft a letter to my Member of Parliament and I will send some follow-up queries to Ms. Claeys at CBSA. I have a hard time believing that Canadian Tire and other retailers will be prevented from selling EDC blades such as the Kershaw Skyline, but the decision would indicate otherwise.

Hopefully the retailers can carve out some middle ground to differentiate automatic knives and blades more likely to be used in physical violence versus all the knives potential banned with such a broad decision.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

What are some other ways around this for Canadian people if it goes through and stays?

1 This is a big hypothetical but what if Sal and Spyderco were to have a "Spyderco North" established in Canada that manufactured versions of the knives within Canada? Would that work? This Canadian customs ban appears to be set up to prevent "centrifugal knives" from getting into Canada but domestically-produced Canadian knives including one hand opener folders are untouched?

2 This does not effect Canadian made knives such as those made by Grohmann and others, right?

3 Do you think this could also be a "politically correct" way for the Canadian government to put a tariff on foreign knife producers, without coming out and saying it, because that would appear to be "intolerant" in the eyes of modern people, and so by banning these knives from afar, they know this will cause the local Canadian knife industries to have more business that would have gone to foreign-made knives, or not?

[The Mastiff]

Hopefully the retailers can carve out some middle ground to differentiate automatic knives and blades more likely to be used in physical violence versus all the knives potential banned with such a broad decision.

Kitchen knives? Autos and kitchen knives?

[bacmapei]

Decision text:
29.The Tribunal closely examined and tested the goods in issue at the file hearing of this matter. This included reviewing their packaging material and instructions, as well as opening and closing the knives repeatedly. When fully closed, the knives have a tendency to stay closed and do not open automatically with a mere flick of the wrist. However, they do open automatically when a flick of the wrist is accompanied with minimal manipulation by the thumb of either the flipper or other non-edged parts of the blade, such as the nail nick, to overcome the initial resistance. In fact, the instructions include directions on opening the blade without using the flipper, requiring only that the user “push gently outwards on the thumbstud”, referring to a part of the blade directly under the thumb when held in the closed position.[27]
30.Once the blade is barely ajar, it easily, swiftly and readily swings into a fully opened and locked position with a simple, “slight flip of the wrist” as the instructions themselves confirm.[28] All of this can be accomplished in one simultaneous, single-handed movement with the wrist, thumb and forefinger.
31.The Tribunal has ruled in prior cases that a knife may still open automatically by centrifugal force even if it requires some preliminary or simultaneous manipulation of a flipper or part of the blade.[29] In recent cases, it has also ruled that a knife may be a prohibited weapon if the flipper works in combination with a device, such as a torsion bar, to enable the knife to open automatically.[30] As found above, there is no such device (in the form of caged ball bearings) in these knives. However, the Tribunal has never ruled, and subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code does not provide, that a knife only opens automatically by centrifugal force when no manipulation is required of any part of the knife. The swiftness and ease with which the goods in issue open is in no way inferior to that of other knives that do not start in a locked position. The Tribunal does not believe that Parliament would have intended, or that the text of the statute commands, that the former be treated any differently than the latter.

My read is that the flipper tab is the issue. Not sure they would rule same for the Spyderco hole, but I'm not willing to bet my knife orders on it. Too bad this person had his 5 Skylines confiscated while Canadian Tire Corporation has imported hundreds of this same model and still has 60-70 units in stores across the country.

[KingRat]

Decision text:
29.The Tribunal closely examined and tested the goods in issue at the file hearing of this matter. This included reviewing their packaging material and instructions, as well as opening and closing the knives repeatedly. When fully closed, the knives have a tendency to stay closed and do not open automatically with a mere flick of the wrist. However, they do open automatically when a flick of the wrist is accompanied with minimal manipulation by the thumb of either the flipper or other non-edged parts of the blade, such as the nail nick, to overcome the initial resistance. In fact, the instructions include directions on opening the blade without using the flipper, requiring only that the user “push gently outwards on the thumbstud”, referring to a part of the blade directly under the thumb when held in the closed position.[27]
30.Once the blade is barely ajar, it easily, swiftly and readily swings into a fully opened and locked position with a simple, “slight flip of the wrist” as the instructions themselves confirm.[28] All of this can be accomplished in one simultaneous, single-handed movement with the wrist, thumb and forefinger.
31.The Tribunal has ruled in prior cases that a knife may still open automatically by centrifugal force even if it requires some preliminary or simultaneous manipulation of a flipper or part of the blade.[29] In recent cases, it has also ruled that a knife may be a prohibited weapon if the flipper works in combination with a device, such as a torsion bar, to enable the knife to open automatically.[30] As found above, there is no such device (in the form of caged ball bearings) in these knives. However, the Tribunal has never ruled, and subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code does not provide, that a knife only opens automatically by centrifugal force when no manipulation is required of any part of the knife. The swiftness and ease with which the goods in issue open is in no way inferior to that of other knives that do not start in a locked position. The Tribunal does not believe that Parliament would have intended, or that the text of the statute commands, that the former be treated any differently than the latter.

My read is that the flipper tab is the issue. Not sure they would rule same for the Spyderco hole, but I'm not willing to bet my knife orders on it. Too bad this person had his 5 Skylines confiscated while Canadian Tire Corporation has imported hundreds of this same model and still has 60-70 units in stores across the country.

I hope it is just flipper tabs, and not everything else thrown in. I've never been a flipper guy, but this isn't good news either way. I hate when these things happen, because it's never a firm rule of law. There always seems to be room for some customs officer to go crazy while they try to figure out what the ruling means. Looks like we'll all be buying from this side of the Border from here on out. Maybe W & W can get us some nice exclusives.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Here is a related question: Someone said one reason why members of the public react badly to knives is because flashing a knife has an "atavistic" reaction because we humans have dozens of generations of historical "baggage" about the use of knives and blades in war, that for some people a knife is scarier than a gun. Explain this to me, please, someone.

[TazKristi]

I do believe we've gone down a path into a discussion that includes politics. As you know, politics is one of only a few things that are off the table here. Posts will be removed shortly. I understand that this can be a passionate topic but this isn't the place for it.

Thanks.

Kristi

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you for the update on that Kristi. I apologize if I helped to get things too much into the political realm of things.

[Liquid Cobra]

Apologies Kristy. My frustrations must have gotten the better of me.

[dannyjones]

thanks for this information,I get valuable information form this forum segment.
Regard
Danny Jones

[bacmapei]

I went online to get some product photos to include with the letters I planned to send and Canadian Tire now has 0 Kershaw knives. The product link to the Skyline indicates it has been discontinued.
My local store had 1 inside the display cabinet 2 days ago, so I plan to drop by tomorrow morning to inquire. My guess is corporate head office was made aware of the CITT decision and pulled all their Kershaw knives. Strangely, there still seems to be some Gerber and Buck knives with flippers (only basing this statement using online pics not knives in hand) and thumb studs for sale by Canadian Tire.