Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:41 pm

I would welcome all feedback and insights into this thought-experiment.

Picture in your mind a world, a universe, an Earth, in which there is NO advanced electronics-based technology of any kind, or, where there are machines and mechanical devices, but, there are no computers, up to a certain technology level point. And yet, in this same world, people have space and even interstellar star travel, advanced alloys, metals, and materials (such as metals and alloys that have the hardness and strength of steel and greater than steel, but, with the flexibility of plastics/polymers), and other things. How could such a world function?

One idea I have is what we see in the fictional "Dune" universe that came from Frank Herbert. In there, the humans once had very advanced artificial intelligences, nanotechnology, and star travel. The machine intelligences took over and began to mass murder humans, the humans fought back, and won, and then banned all "Thinking Machines". They discovered a substance called the Spice Melangue that allowed those who consumed it to have minds that could perform the complex calculations needed for interstellar navigation. In the absence of such a fictional substance, could a civilization have star travel without advanced computers or not?

Also, could technologies such as molecular replicators that use machines that control atoms and molecules exist or be allowed to exist in such a Dune-like world, or, would these be feared and banned? Perhaps if they were based on engineered enzymes and DNA they would be allowed because those are not thinking machines.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:45 pm

Second and related question: Imagine a world in which human beings create an advanced computer technology that allows everyone to get a headband like device or a wrist watch like device that you put on yourself, and this machine uses some type of energy wave control to manipulate matter at the atomic and subatomic level. Now, you and me and everyone you know can directly use this "super matter control bracelet" to assemble solid objects from electrons/protons, and levitate materials and heal damaged tissue and more. What would the effects on the world around us and human life be with this? And say the machines could replicate. One "matter control bracelet" can make two more and those two can make four and on and on until there are billions and billions of them available to anyone and everyone. And as far as energy, since this is a hypothetical thought experiment, say they are able to somehow harness the energy from the quantum vacuum state for energy so that solves the energy problem.

What form would human society take after such a matter energy control bracelet is developed?

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:48 pm

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Second and related question: Imagine a world in which human beings create an advanced computer technology that allows everyone to get a headband like device or a wrist watch like device that you put on yourself, and this machine uses some type of energy wave control to manipulate matter at the atomic and subatomic level. Now, you and me and everyone you know can directly use this "super matter control bracelet" to assemble solid objects from electrons/protons, and levitate materials and heal damaged tissue and more. What would the effects on the world around us and human life be with this? And say the machines could replicate. One "matter control bracelet" can make two more and those two can make four and on and on until there are billions and billions of them available to anyone and everyone. And as far as energy, since this is a hypothetical thought experiment, say they are able to somehow harness the energy from the quantum vacuum state for energy so that solves the energy problem.

What form would human society take after such a matter energy control bracelet is developed?

As an example of its power: Say you wanted a mass of Spyderco knives. A Spyderco Szabo folder with Native 5 style fluted titanium handle. The bracelet would connect to your brain/mind and you would think this thought: "Make me 1000 of these knives." And the bracelet with its ultra miniaturized circuitry would directly take in protons and electrons and assemble them into 1000 exact duplicates of the knife you want, this Szabo Grail Folder, or any other knife or item you wanted, on the spot, instantly or very quickly.

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shunsui
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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby shunsui » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:18 pm

Your second question has been answered in great detail here:

https://www.amazon.com/Dancers-at-End-T ... 0575074760

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:24 am

Thank you that looks like a very interesting book!

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby anagarika » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:47 am

Why would a person having ability to split or assemble atom need a knife? Or even food?
Chris :spyder:

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby cELLiBAIt » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:07 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Second and related question: Imagine a world in which human beings create an advanced computer technology that allows everyone to get a headband like device or a wrist watch like device that you put on yourself, and this machine uses some type of energy wave control to manipulate matter at the atomic and subatomic level. Now, you and me and everyone you know can directly use this "super matter control bracelet" to assemble solid objects from electrons/protons, and levitate materials and heal damaged tissue and more. What would the effects on the world around us and human life be with this? And say the machines could replicate. One "matter control bracelet" can make two more and those two can make four and on and on until there are billions and billions of them available to anyone and everyone. And as far as energy, since this is a hypothetical thought experiment, say they are able to somehow harness the energy from the quantum vacuum state for energy so that solves the energy problem.

What form would human society take after such a matter energy control bracelet is developed?

Such technology would be prevented from getting into the hands of the masses for 'their own protection' - think about it, otherwise we'd all be flying helicopters rather than driving cars.
There is a theory that the concept of taxes was developed not for the benefit of the collective or other individuals but more to limit and restrict the working class' freedom, opportunities, and self-determination.
Sumptuary laws still exist, they are simply economic.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby shunsui » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:41 am

cELLiBAIt wrote:Such technology would be prevented from getting into the hands of the masses for 'their own protection'...
LOL yeah, you wouldn't want to own a gun, you might HURT yourself. :D

They're too good to us.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby cELLiBAIt » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:38 pm

shunsui wrote:
cELLiBAIt wrote:Such technology would be prevented from getting into the hands of the masses for 'their own protection'...
LOL yeah, you wouldn't want to own a gun, you might HURT yourself. :D

They're too good to us.
Allegedly, there is always an exception to the rule, though apparently not in the UK.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby ThePeacent » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:57 pm

My thoughts on the two:

1. No, here could be no such technological advances (super materials, interstellar travel, etc.) without calculations, ultra complex mathematical operations and working with immense numbers and variables at once. Unless there was such "matter" or solution that allowed sentient human beings to perform the calculations and run the diagrams, equations and such complex numbers, a computer or similar device would prove indispensable.

All modern machinery, engineering and technology development depends entirely on these calculations and mathematical operations, often running billions of them in incredibly tiny amounts of time (modern computers are in the order of peta- or teraflops, a flop being a floating comma operation) and such calculations cannot be replicated by living beings.
:confused:

2. A society with such "bracelet artifact" available for its citizens would end up just like your question from last week "what if everybody could control matter, never die or need food, never be ill...?" and same answers apply.
There would be no society to speak of, and every human being would essentially become a God, breaking all social, economic, physiological and biological barriers. :eek:

now they'd only be limited by nature's laws such as the laws of Thermodynamics (energy balance, in vs out, entropy...)

but if you suggest that the energy limitations to build, create and manipulate matter were put off and could be avoided/tricked (by accessing quantum vacuum and altering the physical laws of macro-dimensions by playing with micro-dimensions) then there would essentially be a non-recognisable Universe with altered aspect and illogical working physics and chemistry, controlled by entities with limitless power and potency

at least that's my view on it.
As usual, interesting questions SEF! ;)

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Wow Thank you for your answers and Peacent thank you for the very insightful reply! :)

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby Evil D » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:09 pm

You would either need a race of being with such a high intellect that they can think on the level of super computers or higher, therefore negating the need for them, or you would need a race of being who have an understanding of manufacturing that was so advanced that they could make things like advanced alloys in the same way man originally made steel. A race like that would be extremely in touch with their environment and be capable of creating those things from the world around them in a similar way that a beaver might make a dam out of trees, just on a much higher level. Basically computers and technology fills the gaps between our intellect and our ability, so a world without those things that is still as advanced would they themselves have to be as advanced.
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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby demoncase » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:00 pm

Sounds like tech-heresy to me...I'm calling the Inquisition. Prepare for diplomacy. From orbit.


Also: to quote Terry Pratchett: "I worry less about artificial intelligence than I do about natural stupidity" :D
Warhammer 40000 is- basically- Lord Of The Rings on a cocktail of every drug known to man and genuine lunar dust, stuck in a blender with Alien, Mechwarrior, Dune, Starship Troopers, Fahrenheit 451 and Star Wars, bathed in blood, turned up to eleventy billion, set on fire, and catapulted off into space screaming "WAAAGH!" and waving a chainsaw sword- without the happy ending.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:27 pm

demoncase wrote:Sounds like tech-heresy to me...I'm calling the Inquisition. Prepare for diplomacy. From orbit.


Also: to quote Terry Pratchett: "I worry less about artificial intelligence than I do about natural stupidity" :D

Scary! :)

DC: Who would beat who? The War Hammer Inquisition with their full-barrage of ships and armaments, or, a fleet of Federation Star Fleet battle cruisers from the Star Trek Universe. And, the Star Fleet Marines vs the War Hammer combat troops.

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Re: Computerless World yet Advanced technology: How?

Postby demoncase » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:05 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
demoncase wrote:Sounds like tech-heresy to me...I'm calling the Inquisition. Prepare for diplomacy. From orbit.


Also: to quote Terry Pratchett: "I worry less about artificial intelligence than I do about natural stupidity" :D

Scary! :)

DC: Who would beat who? The War Hammer Inquisition with their full-barrage of ships and armaments, or, a fleet of Federation Star Fleet battle cruisers from the Star Trek Universe. And, the Star Fleet Marines vs the War Hammer combat troops.
Largest Federation Ship is the Galaxy Class at 1950 meters long.
A Gloriana Class Imperial Battlecruiser is 19900 meters long.
;)

Literally every Star Fleet ship ever made, fighting all at once would stand no chance against a single standard Imperial battlecruiser.....and they have thousands of fleets of ships.

Star Trek Marines are normal, squishy humans in velour.
Imperial Space Marines are 7 foot tall genetically enhanced, functionally immortal, super-soldiers conditioned to literally 'know no fear'. In power armour to enhance strength and speed. With guns that shoot .75 caliber explosive shells.....and that's without the billions of basic human Imperial Guard.

Star Fleet has the Prime Directive to do no harm and so on.
The Imperium has something different. It's called 'Exterminatus'. That's where your planet gets turned into a charcoal briquette from orbit. Because one Inquisitor thought your population looked 'a bit shifty' :D

Basically: it would be like watching a small, asthmatic kitten attacking a Sherman tank....Cute but futile

If the Imperium even noticed Star Fleet at all then they'd have to spend nearly a whole afternoon destroying them :)
Warhammer 40000 is- basically- Lord Of The Rings on a cocktail of every drug known to man and genuine lunar dust, stuck in a blender with Alien, Mechwarrior, Dune, Starship Troopers, Fahrenheit 451 and Star Wars, bathed in blood, turned up to eleventy billion, set on fire, and catapulted off into space screaming "WAAAGH!" and waving a chainsaw sword- without the happy ending.

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