Chinese Products...

[Eli Chaps]

I just replied to a thread with what was probably a too long-winded response about patents and China and as much as I said in that, I haven't worked it all out of my system yet.

Nick Shabazz posted a YouTube video today in which he commented that for over $100 there's really no quality difference between a US knife and a Chinese knife. His assertion is that knife buying of decent quality is no longer a matter of geography. In that pure argument, I will accept he's largely correct. The Chinese are well capable of producing high-quality goods and they are increasingly focusing on that very market in all goods.

I am not a manufacturing isolationist by any means and I fully recognize that the world has evolved into a global economy. I make my living in manufacturing and I welcome this landscape. Manufacturing is highly globally integrated. I do not get overly caught up in the "Made in the USA" hype as it is my experience that these days it is largely just a slogan.

A Volvo tractor-trailer chuck full of parts and components from all around the world shows up at our factory carrying metals from South Africa, Germany, Austria, Canada, USA, etc. A forklift with parts from all over the world, likely even some from our own plant, moves it around and it gets fed into machines from all over the world and so on and so on and so on...

We are in the age of a global economy and it is largely a good thing.

Then there is China. China steals patents, their government supplements their businesses, and they essentially enslave people. They manipulate their money and play hardball global politics that make the playing fields highly uneven.

In my business it isn't uncommon for China to bid a finished product for less than we can buy the raw material. They can't make money off it either but they don't care. It's about market share. They can distribute losses over their substantial gains in other areas and keep the cycle going.

China blatantly breaks laws but no one can afford to call them to task and mist governments are too indebted to really do much more than puff out their chests.

The consumer is the real justice. And so far, the consumer has said they welcome China. All praise Walmart!

I'm a capitalist at heart but I reckon a lot folks don't realize the uneven landscape and even fewer care. I go out of my way to not buy Chinese products not because of inferior quality or a patriotic anthem, but because they are evil and they cheat the system.

If all you care about is quality, such as Nick suggested, then yeah, have at it. But I care about more than that. I have no issue buying foreign products but I do my best to avoid Chinese products when I can.

[O,just,O]

but because they are evil and they cheat the system.

Yes they cheat the system, and what is it exactly that makes you state that they are evil ?
Do you care to share your insight ? No.
By PM then maybe.
O.

[Eli Chaps]

but because they are evil and they cheat the system.

Yes they cheat the system, and what is it exactly that makes you state that they are evil ?
Do you care to share your insight ? No.
By PM then maybe.
O.

Heck, just do a quick search about Foxconn. Go Apple!

[Eli Chaps]

To be clear, I have no issue with the Chinese laborer. It is the government I'm talking about.

[Doc Dan]

I live in the midst of many Chinese and have many Chinese close friends. They will not buy Chinese if they can help it. The problem is with quality. True, the fit and finish of some products is just as good as those in other countries, or maybe not. You never, I mean never, know what the products are actually made of unless you go to the expense of a laboratory test. The Western mind simply cannot fathom how the Chinese mind works (to be fair, not all Chinese are alike, but in business money is god) and do not understand that Fortune is a god (really) and that making money is actually morality: if you do not make it you are not morally right, if you make it, no matter how, you are morally right. Everything revolves around making money. They even burn fake money to the gods to force them to give them real money in return. They have to feed the ghosts or the ghosts will come back and do them harm, especially financial. I could go on.
Therefore, it is moral to dredge burnt, used cooking oil from the sewer, repackage it and sell it as new, if you make a lot of money. It is bad only if you get caught. Bribes are normal. If you sell cheap ABC steel and label it as VG-10 or S30V, it is okay as long as you make a lot of money, but not okay if you get caught and lose money. It is okay if you put car antifreeze in toothpaste and kill a lot of people, or put them in the hospital, as long as you make a lot of money. You get the picture. (you should see what has happened to Benelli since it was bought and moved to China)
The Chinese mindset was not formed by Western Judeo-Christian thinking...about anything. This is true though there are more Christians in China than America (but a drop in the bucket of over 1B people). It is circular, duplicitous (everyone has more than one face), and has different views of morality.
Chinese culture has some wonderful things about it, but we should not be unaware of its weaknesses, either. And, having said that, many Chinese living in other countries may be different, and some in fringe regions, as well.

[Midnightrider]

I have Chinese friends and my understanding is basically what doc said too. But one thing is obvious, they can produce excellent stuff, they just usually do not have a reason to do so. This is because of two things.

1. The US companies that want to subcontract work from the Chinese are trying to save money. The Chinese hear that and they deliver on it.

2. In America we have a tradition of making the best stuff so you buy it once. Of course that had changed a lot but the people who remember that way of life are not all dead yet. And they want repeat customers or at least that used to matter. China is a gigantic gigantic place, they have one city with 89 million people in it. The idea of customer loyalty kinda doesn't have any meaning because if you don't like it and never buy it again there are still another billion guys who probably will.

I think things are going to change but it will take a while. The Chinese people I know are very intelligent and extremely hard working people with no quit in them. They have a real difficult society that is going through a lot of changes. As they open themselves more to western markets (I mean selling directly and not just OEMing stuff under other companies names) they will adapt and understand the markets where they are tomorrow better than they do today. It's a learning curve for everybody. You can't really fault them for doing business like this. It has been working for them.

And by the way the Japanese also have no respect for laws or patents and they control their markets tightly. You can't import one grain of rice to Japan.

So if you don't like it, tell you congress critter or senators. They allow everybody and his brother to set up shop and call themselves Toyota America when they're not. There are plenty of self-inflicted problems here.

[SolidState]

There are plenty of self-inflicted problems here.

A generation ago, my dad fought a war to keep communist markets and capitalist markets separate. Heck, a half-generation before that, his uncles were fighting the same fight in a different country. Then Nixon comes along, and opens capitalist markets to communism. Turns out, when a government sets prices, it messes up the ecosystem of a free market.

Free markets and controlled markets don't mix. What's funny is that a German company had to file suit on behalf of American manufacture, and so far they're pretty much the only ones.

[Bloke]

Some Chinese products are OK. :)

I sometimes buy the Deep Fried Crisp Skin Chicken from Golden Bowl Chinese Restaurant here in Randwick which is very nice and the breast meat which can often be dry in chicken is always juicy. It's very tasty plus it gives me the craziest dreams. So for $AU17.80 you get a good meal and you party all night. Great value for money! :cool:

The Fish Fillet with Chilli and Spicy Salt for $AU16.80 is pretty good too but it makes me thirsty and you don't get the party, just the meal. :rolleyes:

[Doc Dan]

Bloke, REAL Chinese food is delicious. Unfortunately, in America, it is very rare to find real Chinese food. What people eat is actually a fusion of Mexican and Polynesian, and something else that escapes my memory, and is not anything like Chinese food in China or in Chinese areas. The closest I have found was in Boston at Penang Chinese Restaurant in Chinatown. But it is actually Malaysian Chinese. Still good, though.

[Bloke]

Bloke, REAL Chinese food is delicious.

I have no reason to disagree Doc. :)

I think what tends to happen with many foreign cuisines is they try to cater to the generally bland western palate and consequently lose their authenticity and flavour. :eek:

[SolidState]

I think what tends to happen with many foreign cuisines is they try to cater to the generally bland western palate and consequently lose their authenticity and flavour. :eek:

And sometimes, like in the case of legit Mandarin Chinese food, the other cultures don't eat those parts of the animal - they boil them into glue or use them for strings on instruments.
After going to legitimate Chinese dim sum at Wong's King in Portland with some of my Chinese friends, I learned that there are so many things that can be eaten that westerners wouldn't ever think of eating. After going grocery shopping at Fubon market, the lesson was only taken to further extremes. Mark Maron does a bit about how Chinese are training for the apocalypse with their food choices. He was onto something.

Anyone ever seen the episode of "An Idiot Abroad" in China?

[Mako109]

I learned that there are so many things that can be eaten that westerners wouldn't ever think of eating. After going grocery shopping at Fubon market, the lesson was only taken to further extremes.

You might be interested in researching the diet of our American forefathers. There's a historian out there who publishes books and videos about the American Colonial diet, and there are people who are trying to recreate them. Here's just a brief list of common table fare that I found on the internet:
- Ambergris (AKA whale’s vomit) mixed with chocolate.
- Calf’s foot jelly (the precursor to Jello)
- Tongue (of anything with four legs…literally)
- Jellied Moose Nose (photos looks as gross as it sounds)
- Beaver tail (apparently very popular)
- Eel Pie
- Stewed Swan
- Clabber (spoiled milk) with Pepper
- Turtle soup (also very popular and one of George Washington's favorite dish)
- Squirrel (still common table fare in some parts of the states).
A few seconds more of poking around and you can find original recipes of all of these and more from books published in the 17th and 18th century. So looks like we're not too dissimilar from the Chinese.

Mark Maron does a bit about how Chinese are training for the apocalypse with their food choices. He was onto something.

Actually they were, sort of. I'm not an expert but I studied a little bit of Asian history in college. China is an ancient civilization that has endured warfare, natural disasters and famines longer and some greater than most of the western civilized world has known. The Chinese civilization persevered because they were forced to adapt over and over...and adapt they did by learning how to utilize everything in nature to sustain themselves. Try to understand some of the unusual things found at Asian grocery stores and you'll start to appreciate how ingenious their culture has been with food.

[bearfacedkiller]

I have eaten lots of tongue, it tastes like pot roast and makes great tacos. I have eaten pig snout and pig ears. I have eaten eel, rattlesnake, alligator, turtle, frog and squirrel. That is all pretty common. I eat all my venison hearts and have had lamb heart too. I have eaten a few types of brains. I have eaten a few types of eyeballs. One was a deep fried and battered goats eye. I have had tripe prepared quite a few different ways. I LOVE menudo which is a Mexican tripe soup. It is a famous hangover cure. An old New England favorite is deep fried pickled tripe. I have had durian. I have had balut, the hard boiled duck egg with a baby duck in it. I have had huitlacoche which is a fungus that infects corn. I have tried every organ I can get my hands on. Sweetbreads and kidneys. A pig colon sausage. Coagulated blood. Chicken feet and rooster comb. I have had a lot more than that too. My father and my grandfather would both eat anything so I started young. Later in life I joined an adventurous eaters club too. There is not much that I won't eat and I have tried to find bizarre foods to try for most of my life.

I would love to go to china and eat some crazy stuff. :)

Whale vomit? That is one I have not heard of. I don't know about that one but I am gonna get my google on now and read about it. Sounds bad!

[SolidState]

You might be interested in researching the diet of our American forefathers.

Haha, I've been subscribed to Jas Townsend's Youtube channel since its start. I'd argue it's about the best thing out there on this exact topic, as he actually makes the recipes and visits the sites of the American forefathers to cook with the historians who work there. He does full period preparation. It's one of the best channels out there IMHO. You'd probably like it.

Ever read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms?
That has a heck of a lot of interesting information about Chinese history and even what is considered food during extended civil war.

Hey Bearfaced, ever eat straight castoreum?

[Bloke]

I would love to go to china and eat some crazy stuff. :)

Darby, I reckon if people are reading this in China they'd be thinking they want to come to the USA to eat crazy stuff! Ah, hahaha! :p

[bearfacedkiller]

No, I have never tried castoreum. I have never eaten beaver (in never thought I would type that on this forum :o :D ), beaver tail or casoreum. What the heck, I always say I'll try anything once. Seems like it would be hard to find. We used to chat a lot at the adventurous eaters meals and nobody ever mentioned castoreum there either.

Some bizarre foods are hard to find. I was told that it is illegal to sell lung in the US so if you order haggis here it doesn't have lung in it but across the pond it does. That club was organized by a few chefs and one was a Vietnamese lady who would bring stuff back from other countries in her suitcase and more than once she had stuff confiscated. I have done a lot of rummaging around Mexican and Asian markets. Some things are just hard to find.

I genuinely thank you guys for suggesting that channel. I am gonna check that out.

[bearfacedkiller]

I like old cookbooks. They are filled with interesting things. These two are reprints but they are pretty interesting. The recipes are all quite basic by today's standards. The Virginia Housekeeping book has sections on homemade medicine and cleaning products. Opium and Laudanum are the main ingredient to most of the medicines. The opium epidemic has been around for a while I guess.

This is a reprint of a book from 1939.





This is a reprint of a book from 1879.

[Mako109]

Ever read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? That has a heck of a lot of interesting information about Chinese history and even what is considered food during extended civil war.

I've only read excerpts a very long time ago in college. Thanks for bringing it up, perhaps it would be good for me look at it again.

I reckon if people are reading this in China they'd be thinking they want to come to the USA to eat crazy stuff! Ah, hahaha! :p

Through the years I've entertained several mainland Chinese visitors to the states. Typically what they want to eat are the following:
- Steak or prime rib: They're not accustomed to eating large slabs of meat so it's quite a novelty.
- Dungeness crab from the Pacific Northwest: it's the current rage in China's big cities and they are willing to pay well over $100 per crab. So visitors here marvel at how cheap and plentiful crabs are here.
- Hamburger: it's so American, they love it.
- Ice cream: They never see it so cheap, in so many flavors, and served in such humongous quantity as in the states. And then there's all the toppings. In China, one level scoop is exactingly measured out on a scale and costs about $4-5 US dollars. I understand things are changing rapidly over there and now they can get all kinds of flavors too, but it's still very expensive.
- Berries: fresh sweet strawberries, blue berries, raspberries, blackberries, etc.. I guess it's very expensive in China.

[spspace]

Some Chinese products are of poor quality and some are not.

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[spspace]

Some Chinese products are of poor quality and some are not.

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