The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

[Mad Mac]

With living creatures, there are many variables, shot placement probably being the most critical. To have consistent, repeatable, quantifiable terminal ballistics results, shooting ballistic gelatin from a bench rest would be necessary.

Unless a critter is hit in the medulla oblongata in the brain stem, there is no assurance it will be anchored. But apocryphal accounts make for good stories and can become legends.

[OldHoosier62]

Those are disappointing results. I have seen deer anchored with .357 Mag 125 gr JHPs.

I have to agree, the results were lackluster at best.

Really, the 357 caliber guns come into their own as hunting weapons when you pass 150grs in bullet weight. Most of the shooters I know are handgun hunters and of the ones shooting 357 class guns all but 1 or 2 are shooting 158 to 180 grain bullets to insure full penatration and the largest wound channel possible.

The lighter bullets can and will kill deer but penatration is often lacking and if bone is hit then all bets are off.

Since the SIG is seriously limited in bullet weight due to its design then I would put it low on the list of hunting choices.

YMMV

[OldHoosier62]

With living creatures, there are many variables, shot placement probably being the most critical. To have consistent, repeatable, quantifiable terminal ballistics results, shooting ballistic gelatin from a bench rest would be necessary.

Unless a critter is hit in the medulla oblongata in the brain stem, there is no assurance it will be anchored. But apocryphal accounts make for good stories and can become legends.

Exactly. No two animals go down the same. And it takes way more than most people believe to put one down safely and humanely. Hence my preference for neck/spine shots when using a pistol or revolver... Handguns prove the rule "Use enough gun". Smaller bore and a medium weight bullet will work but big bore and a heavy bullet tend to work even better, as long as the shooter does his part and is mindful of his range.

[bearfacedkiller]

Hoosier, do you have any experience hunting with the .357 Mag using the Barnes 140grn XPB?

[Doc Dan]

I have seen deer shot through the heart/lungs with a .308 Win run for a mile because their adrenaline was up. I have shot animals (large dogs, deer, coyotes, etc.) with pistol rounds with varying results, too. A cop I was familiar with in AL was shot point blank in the chest by a .44 mag and lived. There are no certainties when it comes to shooting. One thing that probably hampered the .357 Sig results on deer, is that this round goes for more penetration than energy dump. Also, it would depend on how fast it was moving...the closer to 1400fps the better for a smaller caliber.

[OldHoosier62]

Hoosier, do you have any experience hunting with the .357 Mag using the Barnes 140grn XPB?

Not personally but I have a couple of friends who use them, I will ask their opinions if you like. I do know that the XPB .44 and .45 bullets are outstanding performers from personal experience.

[OldHoosier62]

I have seen deer shot through the heart/lungs with a .308 Win run for a mile because their adrenaline was up. I have shot animals (large dogs, deer, coyotes, etc.) with pistol rounds with varying results, too. A cop I was familiar with in AL was shot point blank in the chest by a .44 mag and lived. There are no certainties when it comes to shooting. One thing that probably hampered the .357 Sig results on deer, is that this round goes for more penetration than energy dump. Also, it would depend on how fast it was moving...the closer to 1400fps the better for a smaller caliber.

You asked, I answered. And my load was above 1400fps by a good bit, out of a 6in. Fusion barrel in a 1911. We could trade anecdotal evidence to support our differing opinions all day. I hunted with the SIG and found it coming up short, you love it....to each his own. With the right loads and a competent shooter it performs its intended purpose as a defensive round (if a bit over penetrative).

I certainly hope your SIG serves you well just as my old fashioned .45acp does daily for me.

Have a nice evening.

[Doc Dan]

I have seen deer shot through the heart/lungs with a .308 Win run for a mile because their adrenaline was up. I have shot animals (large dogs, deer, coyotes, etc.) with pistol rounds with varying results, too. A cop I was familiar with in AL was shot point blank in the chest by a .44 mag and lived. There are no certainties when it comes to shooting. One thing that probably hampered the .357 Sig results on deer, is that this round goes for more penetration than energy dump. Also, it would depend on how fast it was moving...the closer to 1400fps the better for a smaller caliber.

You asked, I answered. And my load was above 1400fps by a good bit, out of a 6in. Fusion barrel in a 1911. We could trade anecdotal evidence to support our differing opinions all day. I hunted with the SIG and found it coming up short, you love it....to each his own. With the right loads and a competent shooter it performs its intended purpose as a defensive round (if a bit over penetrative).

I certainly hope your SIG serves you well just as my old fashioned .45acp does daily for me.

Have a nice evening.

No need to be offended. As I said, I have had mixed results with handgun rounds on animals. Some I thought would put them down, did not. Some I thought would not be too good, turned out to work well. It is also true that the Sig round tends to go after penetration over expansion per FBI protocol. I do not think this is optimal for shooting animals, and though I am disappointed by your results (thanks, by the way), I am not too surprised.

[mb1]

I remember reading (yearrrrs ago) about .357 Sig being good at going through windshields at an angle and still being effective. So (over) penetration makes sense to me. And I assume this could be a problem on game where you need good expansion to create a good wound channel.

Hunting with handguns is an interesting topic I'd like to learn more about. I've done the vast majority of my hunting on public land, so I never ventured beyond bow, muzzle loader and rifle. That was plenty challenging!

[bearfacedkiller]

Hoosier, do you have any experience hunting with the .357 Mag using the Barnes 140grn XPB?

Not personally but I have a couple of friends who use them, I will ask their opinions if you like. I do know that the XPB .44 and .45 bullets are outstanding performers from personal experience.

No need to go out of your way to ask but if you get the chance I would appreciate it.

I have been carrying a .357 on my hip during hunting season for about 10 years now but I always have a rifle with me. I actually bring the .357 because I often back country hunt from a tent by myself in areas with lots of black bears and coyotes and it is more for protection or at least peace of mind while I sleep.

I sometimes think that if the right opportunity presents itself I will take a shot with the .357 but for me that is 30 yards or less. The truth is that opportunity has presented itself more than once but I still took the shot with my rifle just to be safe. I am usually carrying my standard 158 grain wadcutter over a stout load of 2400 but on a couple of hunts I have carried the factory barnes ammo and wondered how it would do. It is not so much that I want to hunt a lot with a revolver but it is sort of a bucket list thing. I want to take at least one deer with it in my life.

I kind of figure that the 180gr XTP or the 140gr Barnes are the way to go for deer.

[OldHoosier62]

I have seen deer shot through the heart/lungs with a .308 Win run for a mile because their adrenaline was up. I have shot animals (large dogs, deer, coyotes, etc.) with pistol rounds with varying results, too. A cop I was familiar with in AL was shot point blank in the chest by a .44 mag and lived. There are no certainties when it comes to shooting. One thing that probably hampered the .357 Sig results on deer, is that this round goes for more penetration than energy dump. Also, it would depend on how fast it was moving...the closer to 1400fps the better for a smaller caliber.

You asked, I answered. And my load was above 1400fps by a good bit, out of a 6in. Fusion barrel in a 1911. We could trade anecdotal evidence to support our differing opinions all day. I hunted with the SIG and found it coming up short, you love it....to each his own. With the right loads and a competent shooter it performs its intended purpose as a defensive round (if a bit over penetrative).

I certainly hope your SIG serves you well just as my old fashioned .45acp does daily for me.

Have a nice evening.

No need to be offended. As I said, I have had mixed results with handgun rounds on animals. Some I thought would put them down, did not. Some I thought would not be too good, turned out to work well. It is also true that the Sig round tends to go after penetration over expansion per FBI protocol. I do not think this is optimal for shooting animals, and though I am disappointed by your results (thanks, by the way), I am not too surprised.

Trust me Doc... I definitely wasn't offended. We just differ on opinion a bit. No big deal at all. I have way worse arguments over firearms and ballistics with my friends that I shoot with every week. We are good.

[OldHoosier62]

SNIP

I just fired off an email to them and with post their response when it arrives.

I usually carry the same 158gr heavy load when I take a 357 on a woods walk and have killed a couple of deer with it through the years when the right opportunity presented itself. But I believe you are on the right track looking at the XTP and the Barnes bullets.

[mb1]

SNIP

I just fired off an email to them and with post their response when it arrives.

I usually carry the same 158gr heavy load when I take a 357 on a woods walk and have killed a couple of deer with it through the years when the right opportunity presented itself. But I believe you are on the right track looking at the XTP and the Barnes bullets.

Have you shot any hogs with a pistol? If so, what setup?

[OldHoosier62]

SNIP

I just fired off an email to them and with post their response when it arrives.

I usually carry the same 158gr heavy load when I take a 357 on a woods walk and have killed a couple of deer with it through the years when the right opportunity presented itself. But I believe you are on the right track looking at the XTP and the Barnes bullets.

Have you shot any hogs with a pistol? If so, what setup?

Usually 44 magnum with a 240 to 265 grain hard cast semi-wadcutter. As far as the gun it's either my 4in. Smith Model 29 or 4in. Ruger Super Blackhawk unless I'm testing something. I ground hunt, no tree stands, in the South where it's really heavy brush so no scopes but I have a gold bead front sight and a V-notch rear on my hunting revolvers.... They allow faster reaction in my experience.

[Mad Mac]

My own experience with hogs and pistols is limited.

We trap hogs in a corral trap built by my Cousin Dave and normally dispatch them with an SKS rifle (the ammo is cheap) standing outside the trap. We try to be humane but the presence of people and the shooting gets them upset and running around. A capable marksman aiming at the head can achieve one shot stops.

One day, I decided to try my new .45. After three shots to the head, the 190 pound boar finally collapsed but was still trying to get up. I reached through the wire panel and put a coup de gras through the top of his head to end the suffering and my own embarrassment.

A month later, we had a 180 pound boar in the trap. I stopped in the shade of a tree about 30 yards away. (I zero rifles at 1,000 inches or 27.8 yards.) The boar was calm, hiding behind a clump of yellow flowers watching us. The 30-06 was supported on the hood of the truck. Lights out. It was my second most humane kill.

About a year ago, I had to put down a donkey that had become a calf killer. We had a couple of calves die mysteriously, but this time I caught her in the act. The donkey, named Baby, was a pet, born on our property. My grandkids could pet her and loved her. It broke my heart to put Baby down. A different .45 from a range of five feet dropped her in a cloud of dust. But it is not the pistol or the cartridge. Shot placement makes the greatest difference, in my opinion.

Cousin Dave and a noble beast. Organic, free range pork, anyone?

[greencobra]

Cousin Dave and a noble beast. Organic, free range pork, anyone?

nice! now i want to come to texas and have a sip of something with you and cousin dave.

the patch of ground dave is standing on is bigger than my lawn!

[Mad Mac]

Come on down and bring some Sam Adams.

[OldHoosier62]

My own experience with hogs and pistols is limited.

We trap hogs in a corral trap built by my Cousin Dave and normally dispatch them with an SKS rifle (the ammo is cheap) standing outside the trap. We try to be humane but the presence of people and the shooting gets them upset and running around. A capable marksman aiming at the head can achieve one shot stops.

One day, I decided to try my new .45. After three shots to the head, the 190 pound boar finally collapsed but was still trying to get up. I reached through the wire panel and put a coup de gras through the top of his head to end the suffering and my own embarrassment.

A month later, we had a 180 pound boar in the trap. I stopped in the shade of a tree about 30 yards away. (I zero rifles at 1,000 inches or 27.8 yards.) The boar was calm, hiding behind a clump of yellow flowers watching us. The 30-06 was supported on the hood of the truck. Lights out. It was my second most humane kill.

About a year ago, I had to put down a donkey that had become a calf killer. We had a couple of calves die mysteriously, but this time I caught her in the act. The donkey, named Baby, was a pet, born on our property. My grandkids could pet her and loved her. It broke my heart to put Baby down. A different .45 from a range of five feet dropped her in a cloud of dust. But it is not the pistol or the cartridge. Shot placement makes the greatest difference, in my opinion.

Cousin Dave and a noble beast. Organic, free range pork, anyone?

Said the same thing 4 pages ago...."It's not what you shoot them with but where you shoot them at" that is most important...... But I hedge my bets by making big holes too.

[greencobra]

Come on down and bring some Sam Adams.

careful what you wish for, lol.
i was in texas actually in january before heading on to shot show in las vegas. we spent a few days in the dallas area, my traveling buddy has friends there so we had to visit.

[Mad Mac]

In case you know anyone looking for a ranch, the place is for sale.
http://libertyranches.com/property/648- ... as-3113086