The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

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Evil D
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby Evil D » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:06 pm

OldHoosier62 wrote:
Honestly Evil, I've found that the folks who transition to Glocks the quickest were double action revolver shooters as the Glock safe-action trigger system is more similar to a D/A revolver trigger than anything else. I've helped transition several PDs to Glocks over the years and the "old guys" had the fewest issues with the change. The younger officers moving from Berettas, SIGs, etc had many more problems.

That's interesting. Maybe that's why I've always liked the Glock trigger and never understood why people complain about them.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:53 am

OldHoosier62 wrote:Meh.... A Glock is a Glock is a Glock..... No excitement as to generational changes from me. I like them, own a couple and shoot them but they aren't as special as their devotees like to believe. It's a tool that does a job.
they sure aren't fancy by any means but their real claim to fame is they work. in 25 years of ownership i can't call to mind any time i've had a stoppage for any reason. no other semi auto pistol i own can claim that. that's why i kept the gen 2's when i replaced them with 3's.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby Evil D » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:48 am

See I must come from a different camp, I'm not a Glock fanatic, but I respect how reliable their guns are and most importantly I shoot well with them and I trust they won't fail on me. My excitement over the Gen 5 is mostly an ergonomic thing. Yeah I could have sent my Gen 3 off to get ground on and stippled and made it into what I want, if I want to invest a couple hundred more dollars into it. Yeah I could have bought a Gen 2, if I wanted to buy an outdated version that lacks the features of the Gen 5. I've shot just about every handgun that I could ever afford to own and shoot and for my money and my skill level Glocks just fit the bill. It isn't exactly a Ford vs Chevy thing for me, I own a Shield and wouldn't mind owning an M&P too, I just can't afford to own them all so I have to choose which ones I like and shoot best with.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:20 am

the only thing i'm curious about on the 5 is this new fangled barrel they're touting. glock made a big issue out of their polygonal barrels but now we have a newer design, huh...wonder what that's all about. the rest of the "improvements" don't get me excited. but if i were a left handed shooter i'd really like the ambi slide release.

recently, every one of my glocks just got a new oversized takedown slide release lever. the only thing glock should have done itself long ago. much better for aging fingers and hands with reduced strength.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby OldHoosier62 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:41 am

greencobra wrote:
OldHoosier62 wrote:Meh.... A Glock is a Glock is a Glock..... No excitement as to generational changes from me. I like them, own a couple and shoot them but they aren't as special as their devotees like to believe. It's a tool that does a job.
they sure aren't fancy by any means but their real claim to fame is they work. in 25 years of ownership i can't call to mind any time i've had a stoppage for any reason. no other semi auto pistol i own can claim that. that's why i kept the gen 2's when i replaced them with 3's.
Not being "fancy" is irrelevant. They feel cheap, have no balance, are uncomfortable in the hand and contrary to the Glock "Perfection" hype they do malfunction. I'm a gunsmith and have been a factory certified Glock armorer since they began the program. I've transitioned both PD and Civilian shooters to Glock firearms and have seen LOTS of malfunctions both on formal ranges during qualification and in the back yard while plinking. Mostly failures to feed and failures to extract..... Both of which can be fatal if they occur when you need your weapon most. Then you can also count the famous Glock kaboom in the 40 S&W models... They have been told the cause of them but not really done squat to correct the problem.

I've owned almost every model they make and have run untold amounts of ammo through them, and I love the ones I have kept but they are not my first choice for anything specific.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:12 am

OldHoosier62 wrote:......and have seen LOTS of malfunctions both on formal ranges during qualification and in the back yard while plinking. Mostly failures to feed and failures to extract.....
i have seen failures but every one was due to some buggered up reloads. but of course i'm sure malfunctions happen even with factory ammo, they're bound to with the millions of glocks out there.
OldHoosier62 wrote:Then you can also count the famous Glock kaboom in the 40 S&W models... They have been told the cause of them but not really done squat to correct the problem.
correct me if i'm wrong, wasn't that caused by the unsupported bottom of the case head in the chamber? and this occurred when glock was rushing to enter the .40 s&w market with barrels that were originally going to be chambered in 9mm? i thought that issue was addressed and corrected. i'm just drawing on memory here and not fact checking so i could be way off. i do respect, hoosier, your background as a gunsmith and glock armorer. not trying to pick a fight here. there's always things i can learn even at my age. :)

i was on that .40 bus when they introduced it. i've since converted my 2 .40's into .357 sig. i have the g22 and 23. the 22 has a lone wolf frame with their "deluxe" trigger (whatever that means) on it. without looking, i think it has a storm lake barrel. the 23 has a kkm barrel.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby OldHoosier62 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:30 am

greencobra wrote:
OldHoosier62 wrote:......and have seen LOTS of malfunctions both on formal ranges during qualification and in the back yard while plinking. Mostly failures to feed and failures to extract.....
i have seen failures but every one was due to some buggered up reloads. but of course i'm sure malfunctions happen even with factory ammo, they're bound to with the millions of glocks out there.
OldHoosier62 wrote:Then you can also count the famous Glock kaboom in the 40 S&W models... They have been told the cause of them but not really done squat to correct the problem.
correct me if i'm wrong, wasn't that caused by the unsupported bottom of the case head in the chamber? and this occurred when glock was rushing to enter the .40 s&w market with barrels that were originally going to be chambered in 9mm? i thought that issue was addressed and corrected. i'm just drawing on memory here and not fact checking so i could be way off. i do respect, hoosier, your background as a gunsmith and glock armorer. not trying to pick a fight here. there's always things i can learn even at my age. :)

i was on that .40 bus when they introduced it. i've since converted my 2 .40's into .357 sig. i have the g22 and 23. the 22 has a lone wolf frame with their "deluxe" trigger (whatever that means) on it. without looking, i think it has a storm lake barrel. the 23 has a kkm barrel.
According to Glock it has been addressed but the kabooms have continued even in the new, supposedly fixed, production guns. I have people contacting me every few weeks to replace their factory 40 barrels with aftermarket ones to prevent the problem. Have to see how the Gen 5 guns fare before passing judgment.

As for the malfunctions, very few that I have witnessed were issues with reloaded ammo. Most were on the PD range with issue duty or issue training ammo. It's a machine, tolerances vary and malfunctions happen. I'm not knocking them just bringing a little reality to the hype. They do malfunction, on a whole, less than MANY other firearms.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby mb1 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:41 am

^^ Good to know on the .40's, especially with a lot of police trade ins coming available.

My 19 has eaten about 800 rounds, with one failure to feed and 1 ejection jam. Both of these failures were from the same batch of target ammo reloads (factory remanufactured). So I still feel confident in the gun with factory new ammo.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby Evil D » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:56 am

Seems most gunsmiths I know aren't Glock fans because they love their custom built 1911's LOL.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:03 am

i've been lucky for the most part with semi auto pistols. the only gun i've owned that was crap was a walther ppk/s. bought it new when interarms put out the stainless version way back when. couldn't get that to feed anything, rn or hp's. didn't matter what brand i used either. i gave it a fair shake but no go. go figure, walther is one of the most respected brands out there. it happens to the best of 'em. it didn't sour me on the brand, i like those ppq's, nice price point, decent ergo's, shoots like a demon. don't own one but shot one....someday, when i get the extra cash.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby OldHoosier62 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:35 am

Evil D wrote:Seems most gunsmiths I know aren't Glock fans because they love their custom built 1911's LOL.
LOLOLOL... Not all that far from true with many of us. I can assure you that my EDC 1911 is far from "custom" though. It's a beater 1970's Combat Commander that is bone stock except for ambi safety and a BarSto barrel and has well in excess of 100,000 rounds through her. I respring it once a year just in case and clean it when it starts leaving smudges on my shirt/shorts.

Guns are tools for me, not art or collectables. Just materials assembled for a purpose. I like some more than others but it is based on my experience not some gun rag writers glowing reports or company hype.

Just like knives, I love Spyderco because they just work and their ergonomics are nearly a perfect fit for me in most cases.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby OldHoosier62 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:40 am

greencobra wrote:i've been lucky for the most part with semi auto pistols. the only gun i've owned that was crap was a walther ppk/s. bought it new when interarms put out the stainless version way back when. couldn't get that to feed anything, rn or hp's. didn't matter what brand i used either. i gave it a fair shake but no go. go figure, walther is one of the most respected brands out there. it happens to the best of 'em. it didn't sour me on the brand, i like those ppq's, nice price point, decent ergo's, shoots like a demon. don't own one but shot one....someday, when i get the extra cash.
Those Interarms PPK/s guns were a pain, they were set up for the hotter European FMJ ammo and needed a feed ramp overhaul and polish to feed the US JHP ammo, but it could be done. I use to charge $125 to do it back when they were the big deal pocket pistol.

ETA.... polishing the frame and slide rails lightly to deburr them then a small dot of STP (yes, the car oil additive) worked wonders also.
Last edited by OldHoosier62 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:14 am

Evil D wrote:Seems most gunsmiths I know aren't Glock fans because they love their custom built 1911's LOL.
you're so right. my gunsmith started his shop doing everything. in fact i started using him after he agreed to help me get an a2 sight off an ar rifle and then i threw all kinds of odd chores at him i'd been meaning to take care of for years. then all he wanted to work on was plastic guns, glocks and m&p's. he almost threw me out one day when i was bustin 'em over how he was making a living doing cosmetic stuff on glocks that really didn't need doin'. now, a decade in, it's full blown custom 1911's, nothing else. he may do the odd trigger job on a shield but if you weren't an original customer when he opened or you don't want extensive work done on your 1911, find someone else. you gun smiths....such primadonnas. ;) lol

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby OldHoosier62 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:02 am

greencobra wrote:
Evil D wrote:Seems most gunsmiths I know aren't Glock fans because they love their custom built 1911's LOL.
you're so right. my gunsmith started his shop doing everything. in fact i started using him after he agreed to help me get an a2 sight off an ar rifle and then i threw all kinds of odd chores at him i'd been meaning to take care of for years. then all he wanted to work on was plastic guns, glocks and m&p's. he almost threw me out one day when i was bustin 'em over how he was making a living doing cosmetic stuff on glocks that really didn't need doin'. now, a decade in, it's full blown custom 1911's, nothing else. he may do the odd trigger job on a shield but if you weren't an original customer when he opened or you don't want extensive work done on your 1911, find someone else. you gun smiths....such primadonnas. ;) lol
Yes, unfortunately most 'smiths anymore find a niche with a high turn around rate and profit margin then stick with that as their "signature" work. General gunsmithing is viewed as "if there is nothing else to do" work and the industry is suffering for it.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby greencobra » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:28 pm

watched a few vids on youtube regarding the g5 glock. ok, i've changed my mind, i want!

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby Evil D » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:13 pm

CZ P-10C 9mm opinions.....?

I've had my mind set on either a G19 or G17 Gen 5 but man this 10C is really making a good argument. I need to get out and shoot one.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby i am travvy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:41 pm

Evil D wrote:CZ P-10C 9mm opinions.....?

I've had my mind set on either a G19 or G17 Gen 5 but man this 10C is really making a good argument. I need to get out and shoot one.
I really enjoyed shooting the one I got ahold of. Really crisp trigger with a very nice reset. I don't like the aggressive grip texture but you really don't notice it when shooting. I would probably choose it over the g19. Stock vs stock cz hands down. Also see if you can get your hands on the canik tp9 sf elite. I'd might even put the canik over the cz. Roughly g19 sized but hands down the best factory trigger out there.

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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby Evil D » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:58 pm

i am travvy wrote:
Evil D wrote:CZ P-10C 9mm opinions.....?

I've had my mind set on either a G19 or G17 Gen 5 but man this 10C is really making a good argument. I need to get out and shoot one.
I really enjoyed shooting the one I got ahold of. Really crisp trigger with a very nice reset. I don't like the aggressive grip texture but you really don't notice it when shooting. I would probably choose it over the g19. Stock vs stock cz hands down. Also see if you can get your hands on the canik tp9 sf elite. I'd might even put the canik over the cz. Roughly g19 sized but hands down the best factory trigger out there.

So far the reviews I've seen have been overwhelmingly positive even from most Glock fanatics. I'm absolutely a Glock fan but not to the point that I'm close minded towards other brands as long as they prove themselves. It's still a pretty new gun but I've seen some impressive torture test numbers which are encouraging.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby mb1 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:18 pm

If I was looking today, that Canik would be hard to pass up. Supporting Turkey is a possible question mark, but looks like a heck of a deal.
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Re: The Official Gun Brand and Caliber Debate thread!

Postby benben » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:22 am

Glock guy here, carry one everyday and own 6 of them. I'm down to one HK now, a 20+ year old USP45. I think my next pistol will be either a HK P30 or a P2000 if I can find one. Whichever one I buy will be a 9mm in light LEM.


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