The loss of common courtesy

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demoncase
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#21

Post by demoncase »

The Deacon wrote:
Mad Mac wrote:
The Deacon wrote:...And, of course there's this gem, written by Socrates over 2000 years ago: “The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”...
Maybe it is not a generational thing. Maybe it is a geriatric thing,
We become grumpy old men, curmudgeons, who have lived beyond our "BEST BY" date.
Pass the hemlock... please.
I suppose that's possible. I know I was just very rude to a nice young man (who sounded like he could have been a cast member of Jersey Shore) after I picked up the phone and was greeted by "Yo! Paul! We've sent you like three URGENT notices that the warranty on your 2011 Toyota Corolla (that I traded in on my Benz a few years back) needs to be extended and you haven't responded. What's up with that?"
I think the correct response is "Eeeeh....Fergedabowdit".

Or something. :D
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tvenuto
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#22

Post by tvenuto »

Donut wrote:I try, but it seems to get lost.

I get a thank you, but the thank you seems to only be because people were taught to say thank you.

There are people who really appreciate things and that is what I think is gone. True appreciation and thankfulness.

Maybe it's just us being busy/distracted. We don't have a few seconds to appreciate anything.


I usually don't try to think of what is different, but ask why is it different?
An interesting counterpoint. One of my friends and mentors was talking about this when teaching his daughters to say "thank you" when someone gave them something or did something for them. He was struggling with the concept of making them say it, and then they just say it because you're "supposed to." And then think of it from the other side, which is to say: why does that person need the thank you? If you hold the door for someone, and you don't get a thank you, did you get offended? Doesn't that mean you weren't really performing a selfless act? There was actually a transaction in place: you did something nice, and that person had to acknowledge it. Anyway it's a whole rabbit hole to go down, and there's no right answer of course. I probably think about it more than most due to having an 11 month old.

I think the thing to remember is that social mores and folkways are fluid. There are of course pluses and minuses to both formality--which could also be called rigidity or oppression--as well as "individualism" (if you have a better word, feel free)--which could also be called rudeness or even bedlam. How do we teach our kids that they shouldn't always do what's expected of them, and to follow their own path, and yet still give deference to certain social mores? The pendulum has indeed swung far away from formality/rigidity/expectations, but I do expect it to swing back when we realize that if everyone does their own thing then social contracts start to break down. I've been waiting for it to swing back on care in communication, but so far my cries remain unheeded.

So, in short, I think the "why" is that our social mores have swung in the direction of "be yourself" which of course tends towards selfishness or even egomania. It's no coincidence that some of the most popular music now is people simply telling you how awesome they are, which is just absurd on the face of it. I do also think that our long (and largely illusory, thanks Greenspan!) prosperity has shown many a time without hardship, so true appreciation is difficult for those who have been given everything. There are of course good sides to this like I mentioned: sharing of ideas, discussion on difficult/uncomfortable topics etc, but nothing is without cost.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#23

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tvenuto wrote:...He was struggling with the concept of making them say it, and then they just say it because you're "supposed to." And then think of it from the other side, which is to say: why does that person need the thank you? If you hold the door for someone, and you don't get a thank you, did you get offended? Doesn't that mean you weren't really performing a selfless act? There was actually a transaction in place: you did something nice, and that person had to acknowledge it. Anyway it's a whole rabbit hole to go down, and there's no right answer of course...

...There are of course pluses and minuses to both formality--which could also be called rigidity or oppression--as well as "individualism" (if you have a better word, feel free)--which could also be called rudeness or even bedlam...
I'll get in that rabbit hole with you. There is a right answer.
The word that we are looking for is "disrespect".

Have you ever held the door open and the next person walks past you without looking at you, without thanking you and without even putting a hand up to catch the door. Didn't you want to punch him in the face and knock him out. Now that's a transaction.

It's the difference between the old "do unto others" routine and being a user. Elevating yourself above others and expecting deferential treatment shows disrespect, contempt and disdain for the other. It is an insult and a loss of honor to the person being used.

Sure, it could have been simple inattentiveness and not deliberate,
in which case just let the door hit'em. That'll wake'm up.

Respect, civility, allows society to move about harmoniously and efficiently.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#24

Post by v8r »

I can't wrap my mind around the concept that being polite, and using manners when speaking with others is somehow " oppressing" a person's individualism. You can still very much be whoever you choose. It also doesn't really matter if I hold a door for a person and they don't say thank you. To me it's a selfless act and shows the character (of the person who is holding the door). I feel it does the soul good to put others first. I try my hardest to show and give respect to everyone I come in contact with.
I was brought up with manners and to be selfless whenever possible.
Just imagine how great the world would be if we just treated each other with respect.........
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#25

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Mad Mac wrote:
tvenuto wrote:...He was struggling with the concept of making them say it, and then they just say it because you're "supposed to." And then think of it from the other side, which is to say: why does that person need the thank you? If you hold the door for someone, and you don't get a thank you, did you get offended? Doesn't that mean you weren't really performing a selfless act? There was actually a transaction in place: you did something nice, and that person had to acknowledge it. Anyway it's a whole rabbit hole to go down, and there's no right answer of course...

...There are of course pluses and minuses to both formality--which could also be called rigidity or oppression--as well as "individualism" (if you have a better word, feel free)--which could also be called rudeness or even bedlam...
I'll get in that rabbit hole with you. There is a right answer.
The word that we are looking for is "disrespect".
That is of course a disadvantage, but that's not exactly what I meant. We live in a time where you are probably most able to be yourself, and that's a good thing, generally. You're able to practice whatever religion you want, for example. That's not always been the case, and although your neighbors may all be a certain religion, you're free to not do what they do, even if that might bother them. You can also dress differently, wear your hair differently, etc. I'm saying that when there is less social pressure on the "big things," sometimes the "small things" (pleases and thank yous) can get lost as well.

So one end of the spectrum is being mortified at being at all different from your neighbors, and agonizing over what those around you think of you and maybe even facing violence if you differ from them. This is what I called formality/rigidity/oppression. The other end is not giving a darn about what anyone thinks of you, which I called individualism/rudeness/bedlam. The pendulum swings back and forth, and we've swung far to the individualism side at the moment, but my point was that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and in my opinion, there is no singe "correct" place to be.
Mad Mac wrote:Have you ever held the door open and the next person walks past you without looking at you, without thanking you and without even putting a hand up to catch the door. Didn't you want to punch him in the face and knock him out. Now that's a transaction.

It's the difference between the old "do unto others" routine and being a user. Elevating yourself above others and expecting deferential treatment shows disrespect, contempt and disdain for the other. It is an insult and a loss of honor to the person being used.

Sure, it could have been simple inattentiveness and not deliberate,
in which case just let the door hit'em. That'll wake'm up.
My "rabbit hole" discussion is about what is it inside of me that elicits that reaction? If I hold the door open for someone, and they walk through it without having to touch it, wasn't my goal fulfilled? Success! If I'm disappointed in the lack of thank you to the level of wanting to punch someone, then why am I so wrapped up in that? Do I need a reward for doing a nice deed, and if so, am I just doing the deed for the reward and not actually to be nice? And of course I'm not saying it's wrong to be mad about it, it's just an interesting discussion that deserves a few beers, a campfire, and a cigar or two.
Mad Mac wrote:Respect, civility, allows society to move about harmoniously and efficiently.
It absolutely does, no argument there.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#26

Post by tvenuto »

v8r wrote:I can't wrap my mind around the concept that being polite, and using manners when speaking with others is somehow " oppressing" a person's individualism. You can still very much be whoever you choose.
It's not at all. The point is that very rigid social mores seem to come as a package, as do very lose ones.

Rigid: everyone saying please and thank you, children addressing adults as sir and ma'am and never interrupting, it being unthinkable to leave the house without a hat (or wig), and also it being not ok to be christian (or gay, or whatever).
Loose: You can wear your hair long, you can worship whatever you choose, and you can also not say thank you when someone holds open the door for you.

My question (in the original post) was how do we keep the good and lose the bad? But the above is my humble opinion on the "where have all the manners gone" question.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

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tvenuto wrote:...And of course I'm not saying it's wrong to be mad about it, it's just an interesting discussion that deserves a few beers, a campfire, and a cigar or two...
If I ever get back to Dundalk, I'll be happy to join you for crab cakes and Blue Ribbon Beer.
I'll pass on the camping and cigars.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#28

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tvenuto wrote:
v8r wrote:I can't wrap my mind around the concept that being polite, and using manners when speaking with others is somehow " oppressing" a person's individualism. You can still very much be whoever you choose.
It's not at all. The point is that very rigid social mores seem to come as a package, as do very lose ones.

Rigid: everyone saying please and thank you, children addressing adults as sir and ma'am and never interrupting, it being unthinkable to leave the house without a hat (or wig), and also it being not ok to be christian (or gay, or whatever).
Loose: You can wear your hair long, you can worship whatever you choose, and you can also not say thank you when someone holds open the door for you.

My question (in the original post) was how do we keep the good and lose the bad? But the above is my humble opinion on the "where have all the manners gone" question.

i understand your point, and still feel you can treat someone else with respect no matter their personal religion, sexual orientation or whatever. I don't have to agree with who they are as well, but we can still treat each other with respect. I have met plenty of people that may have a different point of view than mine , but have presented it in a way that is respectful to others.
I guess another way of making the point I was originally trying to make was the " me first" attitude a lot of people have.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#29

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Blerv wrote:Depends on what country/world you are referring to.

In the USA, courtesy towards authority figures has certainly faded as people are quicker to question "why?". Courtesy towards the opposite sex has changed too depending on views of chivalry vs sexism.
In the 70's Serpico exposed the sheer level of corruption that existed in the NYPD. fast-forward a few decades later, and the rampant corruption is worse than ever! NYPD's hiring practices needed to be drastically reformed countless years ago. Yet, go on as business as usual.... despite constant far from frivolous lawsuits. Recently, a trigger happy killer was acquitted of accidentally gunning down an innocent civilian. Despite the fact that he and his partner were ordered not to do a foot-patrol/search in the apartment building by a Superior officer. They did so anyway. How do you accidentally shoot someone, multiple times, and then with a straight face plead not guilty as you claim it was all just a tragic accident. Really?? Well, if you're the NYPD; you get a free pass!

Asking "why?" ****, in NYC I'm surprised no one is actively trying to ambush police officers at this point. Simply asking "why?" should be considered polite behavior, considering how the NYPD has carried itself.

At one time, women behaved like women and were treated with chivalry. Then some moron told them they had to act like obnoxious men to be taken seriously. When you have women who behave like ghetto street thugs, is it any wonder that men no longer treat them properly? I even had an encounter with such a disgusting individual. She wanted to openly fight me on the street after I told her that the music she was playing on her cellphone, on the bus, was far too loud. She showed no courtesy or consideration to anyone on the bus.

I told her she was nothing more than a walking recruitment poster for the Klan. The type of individual they point to when recruiting new members. We have too many people who behave like the worst stereotypes simply rolled up into a bag flesh. They have no respect for anyone.... not even for themselves.

Point being, it's not surprising that polite behavior in America is on a huge decline.... There's far fewer people around who were raised right. Thus, far fewer people around who respond to polite behavior and manners. It's not just the ones not showing it. There's far less folks out there who behave as though they deserve having it shown to them.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#30

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

A friend of mine held a door open for a woman who was in her thirties or forties and was very polite and said "Have a nice day ma`am" and she went on an angry enraged cussing screaming tirade at him how the word ma' am is only to be used for "old ladies" and she is not old.
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#31

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Here is a related question for you all: In regards to courtesy and gift giving, what do you think of someone who, if they give you a gift, they have an expectant attitude that you should give them a gift of at least equal or greater value than the gift they gave you, or else you are rude and selfish and inconsiderate? Isn't that a bad attitude? I knew someone like that. If they gave you, say (as an example), a Spyderco Endura which retails at around 65-75 dollars in a knife shop, and you don't give them a gift of at least that value, say, you give them a card and a 20 dollar gift card or something, you are somehow being rude and selfish. How would all of you consider that attitude?
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

#32

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SpyderEdgeForever wrote:Here is a related question for you all: In regards to courtesy and gift giving, what do you think of someone who, if they give you a gift, they have an expectant attitude that you should give them a gift of at least equal or greater value than the gift they gave you, or else you are rude and selfish and inconsiderate? Isn't that a bad attitude? I knew someone like that. If they gave you, say (as an example), a Spyderco Endura which retails at around 65-75 dollars in a knife shop, and you don't give them a gift of at least that value, say, you give them a card and a 20 dollar gift card or something, you are somehow being rude and selfish. How would all of you consider that attitude?
That depends upon what each of you can afford.

Also proper manners dictates that a) you should very politely refuse - or attempt to refuse - an inappropriately generous gift, and b), graciously accept even the meanest gift if it was given in the right spirit.

Some people are just pathologically tight-fisted, though, and that can trump family, friendship, the law ...
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Re: The loss of common courtesy

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Give someone a gift, and they expect one in return that is at least close to the same price-point as what they gave you. Just how it is.
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