Attitudes towards craftsmen

[tvenuto]

Or: Where have all the craftsmen gone?

The recent barber thread got me thinking about this. Well, I've already thought about this for a long time, but it got me thinking that others wouldn't mind discussing it as well. I know this will get long, so please bear with me. If you're not up for it, just read the bolded sections and I think you'll be able to contribute.

Before we start, lets define a craftsman. Obviously, this person is "skilled at a craft" but I think we need more detail. To me, a craftsman relies far more on his skill and experience than any sort of formal schooling, or training, or certification in anything. Also, a craftsman must be physically present to do his own work, he can not delegate his work to unskilled underlings or move it overseas.

I consider myself a craftsman at this moment, if I may be so bold. I own a gym, and aside from the managerial/clerical/janitorial work involved, which is decidedly uncraftsmanly, I coach classes and do one-on-one sessions with clients. I also fix every **** thing in the place, which is quite craftsmanly, but not what I get paid to do, so we'll ignore it for the purposes of this discussion. It took virtually nothing to get certified in this, but it took years of daily coaching (as well as continued education)

I have an interesting point of reference, since I went to school to be an engineer. Once I graduated, I was an engineer, and despite my general lack of experience, I would be hired in place of anyone with less than 10 years (or more) experience if they didn't possess an engineering degree. I could call myself an engineer as soon as I had that degree, but not before. Contrast that to someone who makes old world furniture. They can spin in a clockwise circle and declare themselves an "old world furniture maker" but they won't know crap about it until they build oodles of furniture. I don't mean to suggest that apprenticeship or continuing education isn't helpful, but it's not the stamp of approval that makes or breaks the crafstman. Said simply, for a craftsman, the proof is in the pudding, and they can't hide behind a resume.

Now there was a dual tone in the barber thread. Some were lamenting that they couldn't find a good barber, while others declared, almost angrily, that they'd rather walk around with an awkward haircut (that everyone notices but doesn't point out) than pay one red cent to those shysters. And this brings me to the issue, which is twofold.

First, most people are at least subconsciously aware, in America at least, the biggest money is to be found in professions that do not suffer from "the craftsman problem." Namely, that the craftsman has to be there for every transaction. If you're a stock trader, you can buy 100 shares as easily as 100,000, and your ideas can make you millions with very little up-front work. Of course, a very good (or at least highly regarded) craftsman can charge more for their work, but it's not as though a guy is going to show up and commission a table for $400,000 dollars, or a celebrity is going to walk in for a $100,000 haircut. I don't mean to say that years of thoughtful trading experience won't make you a better trader, however, this is not necessary for the big payout, where for a craftsman there literally can be no big payout, and his experience is absolutely necessary for his pay. Thus, being a craftsman is not the dream of most young people.

Secondly, people seem to be far less eager to pay a craftsman than to pay for other goods and services. I don't understand this one fully, and hope that people will chime in on this. People are all too happy to pay $100 for a pair of sneakers, knowing that they cost less than $20 and that most of the money goes to the CEO of Nike. People are all too happy to pay for cable service, which costs the company nothing actually, and most of the money goes to the CEO of Comcast. People are all too happy to pay to go see a movie, knowing that most of the money goes to the studio, that did little more than put up the money to make the movie in the first place. So my question is: why is this? Why do we feel so much less willing to pay the person actually doing the work? Why do we feel that the barber charging $30 for the craft it took him years to learn, and that he must be present for, is cheating us? Do we glance around the block suspiciously for his Lamborghini that he surely must drive around, overcharging as he does?

So I ask again: why do we not want to pay crafstmen like barbers, trainers, chefs, and woodworkers? Why do we act like the people who actually do the work must make soooo much money and be rolling in riches, when clearly the opposite is true?

I'm not blaming anyone for this attitude. Obviously, it's built into our social mores somehow, and I just want to discuss why that is.

[MichaelScott]

People are all too happy to pay $100 for a pair of sneakers, knowing that they cost less than $20 and that most of the money goes to the CEO of Nike. People are all too happy to pay for cable service, which costs the company nothing actually, and most of the money goes to the CEO of Comcast. People are all too happy to pay to go see a movie, knowing that most of the money goes to the studio, that did little more than put up the money to make the movie in the first place. So my question is: why is this? Why do we feel so much less willing to pay the person actually doing the work? Why do we feel that the barber charging $30 for the craft it took him years to learn, and that he must be present for, is cheating us? Do we glance around the block suspiciously for his Lamborghini that he surely must drive around, overcharging as he does?

So I ask again: why do we not want to pay crafstmen like barbers, trainers, chefs, and woodworkers? Why do we act like the people who actually do the work must make soooo much money and be rolling in riches, when clearly the opposite is true?

I'm not blaming anyone for this attitude. Obviously, it's built into our social mores somehow, and I just want to discuss why that is.

OK, I will jump in. Let's take the Nike example. The difference between the production cost (far less in Asian sweat shops than in USA shops) and the retail price does not all go to the CEO. The entire chain of Nike manufacturing, shipping, distribution, marketing, sales, etc. must also be supported by that $80 difference and that means paying salaries among other things.
The movie example is similar. It takes many, many people, some of who,m are craftspeople to make, edit, score, distribute and show a movie. Salaries are again paid, or piecework is paid for.
I think you have a skewed idea of how these things work. I also think that working as a crafts person, as you describe that to be, has always been an occupation in which masters make more than the ordinary crafts person, and a small number of Masters are adequately compensated for what they do. That is one reason patents and copyrights are important, but if you are doing, say, quality wood work, you have to get a good reputation to make serious money.

It is a fickle world. Try making a decent living as a painter, poet, musician or writer for example. Extremely hard, and those who succeed are usually lucky because there are many others just as good or better than them, just not lucky.

[Evil D]

I think the problem is the over inflated sense of entitlement in this country. Instead of learning a skill, people essentially buy a degree and then expect everything to be handed to them, and the system is more than happy to do so. It's a sad fact that education is far more valuable today than experience. That's not to say education is a bad thing in any way, but experience matters and they don't teach it in school.

[demoncase]

If I my offer a slight skew on the discussion:

Let's not forget that describing oneself as (say) an accountant requires the individual to have a certain demonstrable level of competence in that field, if not an actual outright professional qualification. As such, there is a semi-automatic level of conferred respect on such a title....I can't think of anything less 'craft-like' than the solemn and sober practice of the accountant.

Now, the title 'craftsman' (or indeed craftswoman) is self appointed most of the time- and as such there is a very broad spectrum of ability, attitude and good sense in that regard....I've been blessed to meet some genuine time-served craftsmen and masters in their respective fields down the years- such man and women command respect

However too often in my life- at 'craft fairs', 'art sales', charity fundraisers etc- I have had the misfortune to come across those other 'craftsmen' who have all the innate skill at their craft as a drunk chimpanzee does with brain surgery. And this tends to be the most regular exposure the general populace has- amateurs doing a bad job at their chose craft but charging master-artisan prices:

Witness the hand-thrown coffee mugs that need two hands to pick up and appear to have melted in a fire!
Shudder at the lovingingly recreated watercolours that might be lakes with wading birds or might be they spilt the paint on the way to the car!
Shuffle away from the tie-dye-and-sandal-wearing hippy lady selling lumps of driftwood glued to Ikea mirrors for approximately 5000% of their original price!
Wonder at the man doing pyrographs of old steamtrains on pieces of pine and hope the nurse from the hospital will be taking him home soon!

Basically- the term 'craftsman' has got itself a bad name too often....Because anyone can call themself a craftsman.

The product of crafts tend toward inconsistency driven by the passion of the craftsman.
The reason why we like manufactured product is you can rely on it.....That's human nature I'm afraid

[chuckd]

I think the problem is the over inflated sense of entitlement in this country. Instead of learning a skill, people essentially buy a degree and then expect everything to be handed to them, and the system is more than happy to do so. It's a sad fact that education is far more valuable today than experience. That's not to say education is a bad thing in any way, but experience matters and they don't teach it in school.

I feel compelled to share my personal anecdote on this topic.

I graduated in 2012 with a BS in Forestry from UC Berkeley, and after a year of working a seasonal forestry position, and not finding anything but horrible job opportunities in my field, I decided to go back to 'school'. I say 'school' because I did a web development boot camp (Devbootcamp in San Francisco), which offers no degrees or title, but is merely a hands on, action packed trade school for web development.

After finishing this program and moving south to San Diego with my fiance, that experience at Devbootcamp got me a job in 3 weeks as a software engineer. This wasn't just some 'coast your way through' to get the label, this was working and building and creating things that traditional education tends to skimp on.

In college, I learned a lot about a lot of things, but it didn't seem enough to get me into the full-time/non-seasonal work force.

Of course, the fields I went between, forestry and software engineering, are extreme opposites in terms of the necessity for a degree and job availability.


Now that anecdote aside...

Part of what has led away from the presence of craftsmanship is that people don't want to put in the time and effort to become true experts at a particular skill. Everyone wants to make a quick buck, and do it before they are 30, not be a wood-shop apprentice for ten years before being skilled enough to possibly go it alone.

(after typing it all, it seems less relevant...oh well)

[bdblue]

I don't feel that way. I value craftsmen and more importantly fine craftmanship in a person's work. I also do not buy expensive products just because of their brand name or because they are popular or trendy. (For instance I don't own a CRK or Hinderer or Busse.)

I am an engineer and I've been doing that for a long time. I worked as a car mechanic when I was in college and I also do work around my house as well as on various hobbies. I value things that are done well and I try to put my best craftsmanship in my work. When creating "blueprints" I fell as if I'm exercising the same craftsmanship as if I was making handmade furniture or making a fine custom knife, and I'm proud of my work.

I used to collect custom fixed blade knives, and one of the things I liked best about them was the fine craftsmanship that went into them, that could only be created by skilled hands. I would think that you should not question a man's price on his knife, or try to bargain with him, because you were buying a part of him along with the knife. Unfortunately the knife industry has gotten to be very cutthroat and most of the honor is no longer there. I know that there are still craftsmen making the knives, maybe more than ever before.

I don't know why we have fewer craftsmen. It may be that people want cheap and don't pay for craftsmanship. It may also be that craftsmanship is hard, and nobody wants to take the time to learn it or do it. Everybody wants easy and everybody wants to be rich.

[O,just,O]

A few things have been hit on here & from my experience I can elaborate.
Big double gates 10 foot wide each & 8 foot high = 20 foot opening + another matching smaller pair 8 foot opening 8 foot high. Made of steel with scroll work & fancy finials & wrapped joints. All this I have the black smithing skills & equipment to make.
These gates came from China all made up with catches & hinges, all hot dip galvanized + powder coated black. Ready to hang. They were bought over the internet by a customer of mine & freighted another thousand kilometres inside Australia to her door, all for less than the price of the steel to me at trade price here in my home town.
What is she going to do ? Buy those gates or get me to build some ?
Dan & I hung them & I built steps & a landing, only because you can't buy steps & a landing on e bay.
A barber does not have 8 chargeable hours in a day, nor does a plumber, usually, yet they have overheads & things to prepare before & after you sit down & stand up again.

I as a carpenter get 8 or more chargeable hours in a day & the building services authority rates our hourly rate lower than a plumber to make up the difference. Everyone complains about the price of a plumber.
Crafts men like a knife maker has costs in equipment & consumables, work space overheads, & materials prices + out sourcing heat treatment in a lot of small producers case. Once these things are all paid for there is not much cream left for the labour. The same things apply with black smith work & that is the reason why those with blacksmiths skills like me drive Fiats & not Lamborghinis. My Fiat is also 33 years old.
I make way more money building bathrooms where I can charge my worth & have happy customers pleased with the price.

If Sal personally made each Spyderco knife in a small shop, I would not be able to afford one, let alone sixty one.
O.

[tvenuto]

A lot of really good responses, thanks. Just answering as it comes to me, this post doesn't have an overarching point.

The fact that many of the links in the chain of a big corporation can in fact be craftsmen muddies the examples a bit, granted. However, a CEOs/company owner makes hundreds if not thousands of times what those links make, and everyone knows this, and does not seem to begrudge them this. Even if the CEO isn't making most of the money, we certainly don't have a commensurate feeling of price/value when talking about the products I mentioned that involve astronomically-paid management. My point was we tend to begrudge the craftsman more than the CEO, when I would think the reverse would be true.

I think D is spot on with his comment. Many of us grew up in the era of economic booms that saw fortunes be made quickly. Nowadays young men lust over what they see in the "Wolf of Wall Street." The "get rich quick" carrot is dangled in front everyone these days. I'm reading a book now (The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb) that argues that capitalism does not work because people are paid to be more skilled at their jobs (like it's purported to). Capitalism actually works because it encourages wild experimentation with the incentive that you might hit on a really big idea (and thus really big payday).

Demon brings up a good point, the barrier to entry is low for a craftsman, as I mentioned, and necessarily the beginners will be less skilled. Absent a "certification" there's no way to differentiate them at a glance other than by judging their work directly. However, people like to see the "badges of rank," so they know who to respect.

I thought the software/forestry anecdote was very interesting, and I think it does fit in with the discussion. You were told that if you went to school you'd graduate and a job would be waiting. I guess it turned out that job wasn't in super high demand, so you changed gears and learned something else. I would say what you switched to qualifies as a craft. The basics can be taught rather quickly (you don't need years to grasp it at all, like being a nuclear physicist for example), but you need talent and hard work to continue to perfect your craft.

Ha, ain't that the truth, O? Everyone hates on a plumber, don't nobody want to deal with the sh*t, though!

I also want to mention that I don't place craftsmen above engineers or other people who are cogs in large corporations. I know how hard those people work, and I know the pride they take in their work. Hard work and pride do not distinguish the craftsman from those others. I was just discussing why the craftsman population seems to be dwindling (and it may not actually be, it just seems that way to me).

[JD Spydo]

Those are some excellent points you made in your opening monologue "tvenuto" And I know exactly where you are coming from because particularly on my dad's side of the family we had several true-blue craftsmen. One of my uncles was a custom cabinet builder and he was always behind in his work and never advertised because his work was so good that simply by word of mouth he had all he could do.

Another uncle of mine was a professional woodworker and he did furniture, grandfather clocks, custom jewerly boxes and like my other uncle he was very high in demand. And that is one reason I developed such a huge appreciation for top quality tools. Because both uncles instilled in my that if you want to produce top quality work you definitely need superior quality tools to accomplish the job at hand.

It was my woodworking uncle that planted the seed in me showing me the difference between a Rip-mart grade knife and a well made knife even back when I was a teenager.

And with the Rip-Martization of this great country people unfortunately are now more geared to get a lousy $10 kitchen knife made in a 3rd World **** hole made with slave labor rather than get a quality built knife from a craftsman which will last them a lifetime rather than end up in a local landfill a few months later. But if I were chatting with you in person I would sure give you a high five on the great point you make regarding master-craftsmen and how they helped make this country great at one time.

[demoncase]

Let's also 'colour in' this sketch we are drawing:

Let's not forget that the whole Industrial Revolution has an impact- Used to be the only way to have a real quality sword that lasted more than one battle was to the rich lord who could afford to pay the mastersmith to make one.....The plebs in the ranks like you or I (well, I at least!) made do with a wooden pike.

Roll the clock forward to the Industrial Revolution and you have the symbiotic relationship between the ability to mass-produce items more cheaply and the creation of a middle class that wants to have the items of value that the Rich maintain, but at a price they can afford....Which means mass-produce cheap-stamped blades, which may LOOK like the real master-smith made item* but wont perform as well for as long...But the middle class buyer doesn't really care about that- it's the appearance of being like those richer than yourself that matters.

Roll the clock forward again, to the kind of Low-Cost Economy/Offshore manufacturing capacity we have today, and we go to a level of disposability that would boggle the mind of even that 18th Century Middle Class person....We are sorrounded on a day to day basis by people who have not the slightest concept of how the products around them are manufactured...What injection moulding is...How a dinner plate is made....How steel is heat treated....All they see (for the most part) is that cheaper is better: so cheapest is best. For everything.

Why should I buy a £20 uk made T-shirt, when I can buy a pack of 3 chinese made t-shirts for £10 on Ebay?
So those 3 cheap shirts will only last 12 months....and the expensive one will last 10 years
I saved £10 today, didn't I?

Why should I spend £50 on a Delica when I can pick up a chinese made 'Jarbenza' for £5 from that plastic jar at the flea market?
They are both steel knives with plastic handles, right?....Cheapest is best, yeah?

An example:
I recently had a new bathroom fitted at home:
Me, being an Aerospace Quality person, insisted that we got 3 quotes from 3 stores with fitting- even if we didn't really like what one of those stores had to offer- as a basis of comparison in terms of product, fitting and conditions of service.....Yeah- I'm that guy: the hard sell :D
Homebase came in cheapest by a factor of about £3k...Which we rejected as the quality of the product was poor and their guarrantees on said product was 1/10th the length of next nearest.
When I called them to say "Sorry- we aren't going with you" the response I got was
"So how much cheaper were the other quotes- maybe we can match it"
When I pointed out the other quote was more expensive by quite an amount I was treated to about 2 minutes of stunned silence then
".....I don't understand"
Clearly everyone she speaks to is about 'Build it down to a cost' and thus the business model they operate to is to provide that low cost option....6 months guarrantee on plumbing work is not what I want.

I do not subscribe to 'cheapest is best'- I suspect that most Spyderco Afis don't either....But it is the expected norm.

Circle that back to Craftsman Vs Mass Produced


*For a little history lesson on this- Stroll into your nearest museum with anything from the Napoleanic Period Of Europe.
Look at the swords- 99% will be expensive, craftsman made, officer's swords and officer's cavalry sabres- the kind of thing that were expensive to buy and really last
However, I bet you'll struggle to find one of the common mass produced British swords of the time- the 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword or the same pattern Sabre- a mass-produced piece that was mass-issued for free to the overwhelming majority of those elegible for a sword.
These stamped-and-quickly made swords didn't survive the wars well- and many that did were cut down later to use as either fire-pokers or ornamental candlesticks...They weren't worth anything because they were mass-made.
Roll the clock forward to today and it'll cost me 5-10x the amount to get a 1796 mass-produced sword as it would one of the originally less common handmade craftsman sabres!

[MichaelScott]

My Delica is a product of the industrial revolution, mass produced in another country, shipped in quantity to my country and bought from a virtual store with a phone where no actual money changes hands. I have a quality knife. If I had engaged a craftsman to make it I could not afford it. That is a better knife? I don't think so.

If I had a craftsman make my iPhone I would wait five years and it would cost more than my car.

Just because something is hand made doesn't mean it is better.

Mass produced goods can be better than hand made, accurately repeatable and inexpensive enough for people who aren't rich.

If a robot can produce exactly the same article from the same material as a craftsman can but at one tenth the cost why would I buy the more expensive item? Only to show that I can, which is a comment on social status not on the quality of work.

[Enkidude]

I think America's culture of keeping up with the newest thing combined with everything being disposable plays a vital role.

[tvenuto]

Michael, I don't think people were trying to compare mass-produced (or industrially produced) goods/services with handmade goods/services directly. All of the things you mention are true, and as you say sometimes an industrially produced item would be actually impossible to acquire from a craftsman.

I was merely looking to discuss the difference in attitude towards craftsmen and their work. As was mentioned, many resent how much plumbers charge, but he doesn't show up in a Lamborghini. In the flip side, there is someone rolling around in a Lamborghini due to those tennis shoes we bought, but we seem to feel like that price is justified. We looked up the plumber's number online; he doesn't have the money for advertising. The shoe guy had so much extra money that he sponsored 50 athletes, and put up billboards, and did TV and online commercials with models and actors. Again, it's not that we can call up a plumber when we need shoes, it's our attitude on spending money on one versus the other.

[yablanowitz]

Part of the attitude toward craftsmen is the fact that we have spent over a hundred years diligently working to replace skill with technology at every level in our lives. My personal problem with most (not all, but a solid majority) of the so-called craftsmen is convincing myself that they really are more skilled in their field than I am in mine.

My mother noticed my hair was thinning when I was 14. I was mostly bald at 19. I've been cutting what little hair I have left myself for 35 years or more. That doesn't make me a barber, but it does give me a point of view on barbers. Sure, a pro could do a better job on my hair. Could a craftsmen do a better job by an order of magnitude? Maybe its arrogance on my part, but given what he'd have to work with, I don't think so.

[bdblue]

I don't think people were trying to compare mass-produced (or industrially produced) goods/services with handmade goods/services

I think in most areas this would be true- we buy a lot of mass produced products. There are still things that I think need to be done by craftsmen. Bathrooms were mentioned- my wife wanted some work done in our bathroom so she hired a small contractor that she met in the tile store. All of his workmen were foreign and did not speak any english so we couldn't communicate with them. I did not like that I could not ask them about what they were doing. They did the work but they did not do it to a professional level and some aspects of the results bother me every day. They did some work in a second bathroom and I had several arguments with them about poor quality. I had them re-do the tile in the floor of the shower and it still was not satisfactory so I told them to not come back and I hired another company. The workman that re-did the work was very good at the work, in that regards he was a craftsman.

In our previous house we had a real craftsman do similar work. This guy had worked as a carpenter and I don't know what else, but he knew how to do carpentry, plumbing, electrical, tile and painting. And he did a good job even if he was slow. His standards of quality were very high and I didn't have to worry about whether he did some thing right or not. His kind of work is rare these days and he is in demand. I appreciate his work and I will choose him every time over someone that just slaps the work together.

[O,just,O]

In our previous house we had a real craftsman do similar work. This guy had worked as a carpenter and I don't know what else, but he knew how to do carpentry, plumbing, electrical, tile and painting. And he did a good job even if he was slow. His standards of quality were very high and I didn't have to worry about whether he did some thing right or not. His kind of work is rare these days and he is in demand. I appreciate his work and I will choose him every time over someone that just slaps the work together.

I resemble that remark & like JD's uncles I don't need to advertise my services.
O.

[Skidoosh]

Materials used to be expensive and labor was cheap. When I look at inlay work and frame and panels it reflects the time that was put in. Now material is relatively cheap and labor is expensive (in the Western world).
Craftsmanship still exists, woodworking, flytying, knifemaking and forging but you have to look around. The problem is finding people who are willing to pay for it.

[Donut]

Where I live now, there aren't many small, family owned businesses. I always figured the internet and big businesses were making them disappear.

When I was growing up, all the good places to eat breakfast were not large chain restaurants. There's something about a breakfast that doesn't come off an assembly line that tastes better.

When I went to New York City, I was surprised to see so many small businesses. I love the community of it all. It makes me think there is something with business or government that isn't helping small business.


There are times that I think in the next 10 years, we won't have ANY retail stores that you can walk into... I hope history repeats itself and there is a resurgence of things. I feel that we do lose track of what is important and we won't miss things until we can't fix them.