Tanto Point?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Tanto Point?

#1

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

I was recently reading something in which a knife-maker guy was claiming that the standard chisel-type tanto point that is used on most tanto folders, such as the Cold Steel Tanto, and others, is all wrong for practical use. He advocates the more traditional swept-point tanto that has more graceful curves, and claims the chisel point tanto is always a disaster in real world use.

I would like your opinions my fellow knife enthusiasts. Does this guy have a point (pun pun ;) ) or is he mistaken?
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The Deacon
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#2

Post by The Deacon »

As with most things knife related, it's going to depend on what you're cutting, piercring, scraping, or otherwise interacting with. Am sure there are uses for which a traditional Japanese tanto point has advantages, but I strongly suspect there are others where the flat chisel style would work better - scraping something off a flat surface being the most obvious of those.
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#3

Post by RanCoWeAla »

I don't buy anything with Tanto point or serrated edge and certainly not a chisel grind because if you're planning to actually use a knife for anything they don't make any sense.
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#4

Post by Officer Gigglez »

My take on the chisel point is that it looks meaner than the curves of the traditional tanto, and the tacticool world really latched onto it. Other than that, it probably makes it easier to stab, but it isn't like it is hard with any other pointed knife in the first place. I guess you get two edges from a chisel point too.
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#5

Post by StuntZombie »

I was against tantos, until I got a Kershaw Zing Tanto. The angle leading up to the tip isn't as extreme as other examples, keeping the angled edge more in line with the main edge. I'm actually finding it a lot more useful that I originally thought.

As far as the ones I've seen on knives from Cold Steel and CRKT, no thank you. The angle is so extreme, that they're practically chisels.
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#6

Post by ginsuwarrior »

Extreme Westernized Tanto = Car hood stabbing beauty
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#7

Post by eric m. »

What would you call the Strider SMF-T? I've seen them with hollow grinds and FF grinds. :)
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#8

Post by Evil D »

What exactly is the practical use of a tanto anyway? These kinds of statements really make me laugh. Topics like this don't have a right or wrong answer unless you define one single use for a knife, and then you've created something that is specialized for that one single use, such as a barber's straight razor. Whatever this knife maker said, is likely more in line with promoting his own knives than anything truthful, and in the end is only his opinion.
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#9

Post by ugaarguy »

Here's a link to some interesting discussion and commentary around Michael Janich's 2010 testing of various tanto tip shapes - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=525854. The link in the OP - http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/kissaki.html - is also still active.

For those who want the Cliff's notes version:
- What we think of as the Americanized / Westernized Tanto tip is the Kimasu-Kissaki.
- The Japanese quit using the Kimasu tip shape completely by the 15th century AD because it was found to be more fragile than other Kissaki.
- Bob Lum reintroduced the Kimasu tip to the Western World. Cold Steel shamelessly copied the tip, and, in so doing, popularized and revived in the Western World the Kimasu tip that was abandoned centuries before in the East.
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#10

Post by bdblue »

All tanto tips are not created equal. I've seen some that appear to be very blunt, while others are much less so. I've always been a little bit intrigued by tanto points, partly because of the notion that the tip is stronger, partly because it is just different. I haven't gone out of my way to buy tantos, and I have avoided buying some, but I still managed to have a lot of them.

This one is sort of in-between. It really does look like it would be a strong point:

Image


This would make a good cheap utility knife:

Image


Now this one is a sexy blade, not the Americanized tanto that we are discussing. This might be a more useful shape as was questioned in the OP:

Image


This one is also in-between. I didn't buy it because it was a Tanto, but because it had a strong M4 blade:

Image


The Zing was mentioned as a useful tanto. It is more pointed than most tantos, I seem to use the point a lot in my EDC knives:

Image


This one is not a pure tanto but has a strong point and the grinds intrigue me:

Image


I bought this Cold Steel GI Tanto as a utility knife to play with, partly because the internet tests I've seen for it showed it to be very tough. The previous owner rounded the secondary point a little bit.

Image



One of the things I like best about a tanto is that it allows the grinds to be honest. The average hollow ground hunting knife with a lot of belly always bothered me how the grinds work. At the belly of the knife the blade should be thin behind the edge, but near the point the geometry should force the edge to be much thicker. I've noticed a lot of factory knives that deal with this by making the edge grind very steep near the point. It might not take much to reprofile the part of the blade near the handle, but it seems to take a lot more work to get the right edge angle near the point. With a tanto there is a separate grind near the point that can give it the correct angle without any tricks. In this photo and somewhat in the photo of the Spyderco FB, you can see the dual grinds.

Image
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#11

Post by Prof68 »

Keep in mind that the following all comes from someone still flush with the victory of scoring a Lum Tanto folder.

In a recent post, I mentioned Murray Carter in reference to his excellent sharpening videos, so I should probably preface this by saying that no, we're not related and I don't own stock in his company. In his book 101 Knife Designs (a mind-boggling array of eye candy, by the way), there's a 2-page section called "Those Ridculous Tanto Points." His arguments are that the Americanized tanto tip 1.) not only isn't any better at piercing, but actually hinders it by creating more drag, 2.) limits slicing ability by dividing the blade into two smaller blades, and 3.) is difficult to sharpen properly.

Yes, a lot of this issue involves personal preference (most of them do), and no, you shouldn't believe everything you read. But I do try to learn from people obviously more knowledgeable than I am. Carter's an ABS master smith and a 17th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith, so it seems safe to assume that he knows a thing or two, about Japanese blades in particular. Some food for thought, if nothing else.

Now: I'm off to sit by the doorstep in case the Lum arrives early.
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Bob Lum's Tanto is Tops In My Book

#12

Post by JD Spydo »

The only Tanto Point blade I've ever owned that I really thought that had any viable usage and one that I've honestly used as an EDC ( Every Day Carry) is Spyderco's Bob Lum designed Tanto folder model C-46. I also liked the fixed blade Bob Lum Tanto that Spyderco produced back in the early to mid 2000s although I had very limited usage of the only used one I owned.

I've also owned some of the Cold Steel tantos and I did like the Kobun model for cutting up watermelon that I raised for a couple of years. But other than that I really couldn't find hardly any practical cutting job I thought that the Tanto Point was good for.

Like the one Brother said "not all Tanto Points are created equal" and with that said I'm sure that there are other Tanto pointed blades out there that do have practical use. I've yet to find one better than the one Bob Lum designed.

I saw them on many Katana Swords before I ever saw them on knife blades.
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#13

Post by dsvirsky »

Evil D wrote:What exactly is the practical use of a tanto anyway?
I hope you'll excuse my taking your words out of context. ;) In reference to Strider's tanto point knives, Mick Strider has stated, "Our tanto tips are not designed to cut....they are designed to scrape, dig and pry." One might note there is no mention of stabbing car hoods or anything else, nor any suggestion of improved cutting ability.
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#14

Post by bdblue »

Prof68 wrote:not only isn't any better at piercing, but actually hinders it by creating more drag
I didn't think a Tanto was supposed to pierce better, but to be stronger so that when you did try to pierce something difficult it would stay intact rather than breaking off. I agree that a Tanto probably has more drag overall, because of the way the point is ground. This adds drag but adds strength at the same time. Having said that, I wonder if some of the points like I see on Cold Steel folders would have even more drag because they are a bit more blunt than others.
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#15

Post by RanCoWeAla »

I saw it stated somewhere that the Tanto point opened up a wound chanelto the full size of the blade quicker which makes absolutely no sense. I think Tanto points and serratededges are for the extremely young inexperienced knife buyers who don't know any better and just want to be macho or cool more than anything. Just like knives with built in seat belt cutters. I talked with a cop the other day at a car dealership where we were both waiting to get our oil changed. He wad carrying one of the SOG Knives that has a seat belt cutter made into the handle and he agreed with me that they made no sense and that a razor sharp straight edge would cut a seat belt just ad fast or maybe fastet. He had one of the Benchmade auto's on orderthen. He said hech I'm so used yo using the main blade on this knife I dont think I would even remember the seat belt cutter.
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#16

Post by shu »

I never had any love for the tanto until I actually tried one.

Surprise, surprise, surprise! For my usage at least a tanto makes a very good utility EDC. And I rarely stab car hoods. But a small kimasu-style tanto - with very straight edges – has proven excellent for general / office use.

I also have a combo-edged tanto with a chisel-grind that is just about the perfect yard knife--cutting sod, scraping paint and rust, ripping through tarps and old rope are all quick and easy. Not something I would carry in the backcountry but it is a tool with a specific purpose which it serves well.


I have no issue with someone dismissing the tanto (or serrations, coated blades, et al) as not appropriate for their applications, but it is a bit ludicrous to say they are impractical for ALL users. I am not a fan of the chisel grind (particularly since I am left-handed) but I do understand the limited benefits they offer. And while I will never cut a seatbelt with a rescue hook, they excel at zipping the hide off deer, elk, etc.

As stated previously (and I paraphrase), practicality is dependent on the intended purpose.
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#17

Post by Blerv »

RanCoWeAla wrote:I saw it stated somewhere that the Tanto point opened up a wound chanelto the full size of the blade quicker which makes absolutely no sense.
Why wouldn't it make sense?

Knives like a modified wharncliffe would have higher penetration, that is obvious. With a tanto blade (especially Americanized) the tip quickly broadens to full blade width making essentially a slanted chisel. In fact, a chisel would also make for a very efficient "hole maker" but that doesn't necessarily mean they make for very good knives.

IMO, buy a knife for the need you have. Tanto blades look cool and have some merit. Probably their downfall (besides low penetration/lbs of force) is a militarized fanbase who wear them in camo pants to the malls...
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