Curious What Fellow Spydie Fans Have Tastes In Guns/ Carry

[enduraguy]

Yup, I will use mouse guns as inhalers from ****. Apply to nostril and activate. Once for each nostril. Repeat as necessary. That should do the trick. :)

What ammo do you use with your Kahr? I have read from the interwebz that since small calibers have basically no knocking power, that you might as well go for penetration and use FMJ's.

I used to have this Keltech and regret getting rid of it.

Ya know I get a kick out of the whole caliber debate and "power" arguments. People have killed animals of all sizes and each other with arrows for thousands of years and I doubt anyone gave much thought to how velocity, projectile weight and penetration affected lethality potential. Lets not forget the all important stretch and wound cavities. LOL. It always has been and always will be about hitting vital organs and/or the central nervous system. That's why I like penetration. Of course I also like the idea of a round that expands and macerates tissue along the way. Hole in, rip it up good going through, hole out, massive blood loss.

[Officer Gigglez]

Sig, Beretta/Steoger handguns, Remington, Stoeger shotguns, M14 style rifles

[chuck_roxas45]

Ya know I get a kick out of the whole caliber debate and "power" arguments. People have killed animals of all sizes and each other with arrows for thousands of years and I doubt anyone gave much thought to how velocity, projectile weight and penetration affected lethality potential. Lets not forget the all important stretch and wound cavities. LOL. It always has been and always will be about hitting vital organs and/or the central nervous system. That's why I like penetration. Of course I also like the idea of a round that expands and macerates tissue along the way. Hole in, rip it up good going through, hole out, massive blood loss.

Yes, but my question pretty much was how well does .32 jhp penetrate?

Also, while caliber is not the be all, end all...I also laugh at the guys who've been spouting your spiel, we should all be pretty much content with carrying .22's. I'm for whatever technological advance that will give me whatever advantage I can get against the bad guys in a small, compact package.

I've been on the receiving end of a couple of .38 spl slugs(still have one in my chest cavity) and it didn't stop me from chasing the gunman with a bali after he ran out of bullets. so yes, I'm a bit concerned what calibers do because you just can't shoot anybody in the head when you want. Oh, and I have also personally seen a man who was shot with a .25 point blank while he was eating soup. The round just tore the skin in the back of his head and exited in the cheeks without penetrating bone.

Additionally, there was a well known guy here who was shot 5 times in the abdomen with a .44 mag. No vital organs were hit and the guy lived, but he sure was disabled right then and there.

So yes, caliber is a factor.

[Gunslinger]

My handguns so far. The Beretta 92sf compact Inox is my newest.

The Glock 23 is my oh sh!t gun. I have a conversion barrel (shoots very reliable) so I have options if ammo get scarce.

[RanCoWeAla]

I was hoping you had a .357 Sig conversion when you mentioned a conversion kit. I think that is probably the best handgun round there is for self defense. Although I still prefer the 9mm.

[Gunslinger]

I will be getting a .357 sig barrel as well, What's nice about the .357sig is I can use G23 mags.

[RanCoWeAla]

Okay here's the thing with defensive handgun ammunition. What you want is total energy transfer and in order to achieve that the round has to stay inside the target. If the round exits not only do you lose a lot of the published fp. lbs. of energy but you also run the risk of killing some innocent bystander. Once the round exits from that point and on into space until it stops is alk wasted energy. If a round says it produces 466 ft. lbs like the Corbon 9mm +p which is a lot for 9mm but it exits the target you may only get 350 lbs. or less because you don't get total energy transfer on target. I always tell people to think football which is a topic all guys can relate to. The standard measurement for an NCAA football is 107/8-117/16 long by a circumference of 203/4 to 211/4 and you want a wound chanel that tesembles a football with the bullet stopping in the target. That's why I say the Corbon 115grain +p is the best 9mm round because it has a lage enough hollowpoint cavity and enough velocity to still expand anyway regardless of what it hits. It has a penetration depth of 8-10 inches a wound cavity that resembles a football with 466 ft. lbs. of energy which is about as good as it gets and why the. 357 Sig in 115-125 drain bullets is even better withvthe high capacity and low recoil.

[chuck_roxas45]

If all we're looking for is physics, why not .45 jhp's?

[eric m.]

RanCoWeALa, there is no conversion kit to change a Glock 40S&W to 357 Sig. All you need is a Glock 357 Sig barrel and swap it out with the 40! Same magazines, same ejector housing! Nothing could be easier or simpler. There are also aftermarket conversion barrels like Lone Wolf, which are pretty good! If you want to convert from 40 to 9mm you also need a 9mm ejec :) tor housing, along with 9mm mags!

[Gunslinger]

RanCoWeALa, there is no conversion kit to change a Glock 40S&W to 357 Sig. All you need is a Glock 357 Sig barrel and swap it out with the 40! Same magazines, same ejector housing! Nothing could be easier or simpler. There are also aftermarket conversion barrels like Lone Wolf, which are pretty good! If you want to convert from 40 to 9mm you also need a 9mm ejec :) tor housing, along with 9mm mags!

With a 9mm conversion barrel you don't need an ejector housing, (you will if you use a factory G19 barrel) because the conversion barrel chamber adjusts so the 9mm shell to engage the factory ejector. You just need a 9mm mag (G17, G19)

[enduraguy]

Yes, but my question pretty much was how well does .32 jhp penetrate?

Also, while caliber is not the be all, end all...I also laugh at the guys who've been spouting your spiel, we should all be pretty much content with carrying .22's. I'm for whatever technological advance that will give me whatever advantage I can get against the bad guys in a small, compact package.

I've been on the receiving end of a couple of .38 spl slugs(still have one in my chest cavity) and it didn't stop me from chasing the gunman with a bali after he ran out of bullets. so yes, I'm a bit concerned what calibers do because you just can't shoot anybody in the head when you want. Oh, and I have also personally seen a man who was shot with a .25 point blank while he was eating soup. The round just tore the skin in the back of his head and exited in the cheeks without penetrating bone.

Additionally, there was a well known guy here who was shot 5 times in the abdomen with a .44 mag. No vital organs were hit and the guy lived, but he sure was disabled right then and there.

So yes, caliber is a factor.

Well see I don't agree with some of the above. I don't think .22 is anywhere near viable for use against humans. Sure, some covert agencies have used it in close range assassinations, but for CCW? No. I never said that caliber was not a factor. Sure, there are definitely some rounds such as the .22, .25acp I would never consider for use against a human attacker. I have no knowledge of .32acp ballistics. I am very happy with modern offerings in 9mm though.

No hard feelings and I hope none from you either.

So, were those .38's in vital organs?

[enduraguy]

Again, why do you guys feel "energy" is so important? If you get stabbed through the heart with a 8" steak knife, does "energy transfer" matter? I think the massive internal bleeding from the knife that just sliced a big whole in your heart is more important. If a given bullet does not penetrate deeply enough to rip open vital organs, it doesn't seem to matter how many foot pounds of energy it's carrying with it. I think many who buy into this factor of "energy transfer" in relation to gun ballistics hope that this "energy transfer" will make up for bad shot placement, or somehow enhance effective shot placement.
I DO want to emphasize that I believe in a "happy medium" per se in terminal ballistics. You can have a round that penetrates deeply, does massive internal damage and perhaps transfers energy to the vital organ, which may help increase the damage to that organ. However these hyper velocity rounds that only penetrate 8" or so, have limited use. I'd rather know that no matter how fat, or heavily clothed my potential attacker is, I'll be ready.

Let's keep it civil while continuing to intelligently argue our opinions. :cool:

[xceptnl]

If a given bullet does not penetrate deeply enough to rip open vital organs, it doesn't seem to matter how many foot pounds of energy it's carrying with it.

I have always operated under the thoughts that IF a bullet never reaches a vital organ, but does not pass thru, the energy is the amount of force that will still be transmitted to the effected tissue. This seems to be very important as it will reflect the amount of knock down transfered to the target.

[Gunslinger]

I just want to mention some things here.

There is no such thing as "knock down power". Guns don't blow people off their feet.

The goal of a defensive round is to incompacitate or Stop the threat. Not necessarily to kill them. You may hit a main artery and they bleed to death, but it may take 5 minutes to do so and in the mean time he/she hurts or kills you or someone else. The importance of the "energy" is to cause trauma to the body and nervous system and stop the attacker. Your not going to have time to pick which vital organs you want to hit. That's why they teach you to aim for center mass.

Most of you know this, just thought Id throw it out there.

[RanCoWeAla]

That's why the ten inches or so of penetration and a football sized wound chanel with 466 ft.lbs. of enery is as good as it gets. You have that instant incapacitating effect. I'm five eight and a half and weigh 185 and from the front no more than ten inches through and not much more from the side. Even on large frame individuals thats plenty. Thats not to say that the 45 auto with 230 grain is not a man stopper we all know it is but not something you want to use in a crowded area. I just read a report not long ago where a Deputy shot a guy with two 230 grain Hydrashocks from a 45. Not only did it not kill him but one ended up in the side of a house and the other in an inocent bystander with neither showing any signs of expansion whatsoever.

[chuck_roxas45]

Well see I don't agree with some of the above. I don't think .22 is anywhere near viable for use against humans. Sure, some covert agencies have used it in close range assassinations, but for CCW? No. I never said that caliber was not a factor. Sure, there are definitely some rounds such as the .22, .25acp I would never consider for use against a human attacker. I have no knowledge of .32acp ballistics. I am very happy with modern offerings in 9mm though.

No hard feelings and I hope none from you either.

So, were those .38's in vital organs?

Well, seeing as it was you that brought up:

Ya know I get a kick out of the whole caliber debate and "power" arguments. People have killed animals of all sizes and each other with arrows for thousands of years and I doubt anyone gave much thought to how velocity, projectile weight and penetration affected lethality potential...

The 38's just hit a lung and my groin and yes, not really a stop and the point is that the .38 spl is a kind of weak round compared to the example I gave of the guy gutshot with the .44 who was stopped in spite of not having vital organs hit.

[chuck_roxas45]

That's why the ten inches or so of penetration and a football sized wound chanel with 466 ft.lbs. of enery is as good as it gets. You have that instant incapacitating effect. I'm five eight and a half and weigh 185 and from the front no more than ten inches through and not much more from the side. Even on large frame individuals thats plenty. Thats not to say that the 45 auto with 230 grain is not a man stopper we all know it is but not something you want to use in a crowded area. I just read a report not long ago where a Deputy shot a guy with two 230 grain Hydrashocks from a 45. Not only did it not kill him but one ended up in the side of a house and the other in an inocent bystander with neither showing any signs of expansion whatsoever.

So again my question, if energy transfer and wound channel is all that matters, why not .45 jhp's? Are you saying that your favorite bullet will make a bigger hole and transfer more energy than say a fast hollow point .45?

[Officer Gigglez]

[quote="Gunslinger"]My handguns so far. The Beretta 92sf compact Inox is my newest.

The Glock 23 is my oh sh!t gun. I have a conversion barrel (shoots very reliable) so I have options if ammo get scarce.
[/QUOTE

Yeah, the compact 92s are sexy. I'm still waiting for a brunition (Black) model to come out.

[RanCoWeAla]

Yes I definitely believe the. 357 Sig would make a nastier wound than the 45. because 125 grain Sig round is the equivalent of a .357 Magnum. I also think that some 9mm would depending on load because the 45 depends more on frontal diameter and bullet weight and it's hard to get reliable expansion from the 45 unless you go all the way down to say 185 grain +p loads. Everything I have ever seen read and heard seems to verify that it takes 1000 fps for reliable expansion and none of the 230 grain loads can produce that. I think the. 357 Sig is better than the 45 or. 357 Magnum either and I have all three. The Sig is a pleasure to shoot with hardly any more recoil than a hot 9mm and in some cases over double the capacity of either the 45 or. 357 Magnum.

[eric m.]

Gunslinger, you do need the ejector block to convert 40 cal. Glock to 9mm! I've converted my G27 to a 9mm and it wasn't totally reliable till I got the 9mm ejector block! The different cartridge head size requires a different ejector block otherwise you lose reliability!