SE, PE or CE????

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Which edge do you prefer??

Spyderedge
6
12%
Plainedge
39
75%
Combo edge
7
13%
 
Total votes: 52

.357 mag
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Postby .357 mag » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:57 pm

This thread needs pictures ;)

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Evil D
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Postby Evil D » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Blerv wrote:Not to start a PE vs SE debate (because I totally hear you), but as a side-note I spend far less time sharpening my SE knives than my PE ones. They seem to get "good enough" much quicker.
This is where I find that I differ from most SE users. I can live with "good enough" if a PE knife is sharpened at a low grit and has some bite to the edge, but with a SE knife if it isn't screaming sharp I'm not happy with it. I've found that especially in cardboard, a SE tends to snag far more than an equally sharp PE knife does if it isn't super sharp. I think it has to do with the thickness of the tips catching on the flutes. I've also found that the cutting technique is a lot more critical, because if you can manage to stay inside the big flutes, this isn't an issue but once you get in the small ones or on the points they snag and rip the flutes more than they slice them.
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vampyrewolf
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Postby vampyrewolf » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:20 am

A properly sharpened PE will outcut a SE in 95% of tasks.

Now we're talking a HIGHLY polished primary bevel, with a course microbevel.
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Evil D
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Postby Evil D » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:31 am

vampyrewolf wrote:A properly sharpened PE will outcut a SE in 95% of tasks.

Now we're talking a HIGHLY polished primary bevel, with a course microbevel.
Well if you wanna split hairs (pun intended) you have to be able to compare two knives of the same model and grind before you can even come close to a factual result here. If you compare a razor blade to ANY SE then yeah it's gonna out perform it but it's more because of the extremely thin edge geometry rather than the edge itself, as even a slightly dull razor will still oiy cut most any pocket knife.

If you were to compare say, two Stretch's with each blade type, I really doubt you will see much difference in performance. I took the test and was shocked that almost all of my opinions on SE were wrong. You can even Bushcraft with a SE quite effectively. In the end edge geometry makes more difference than edge style. If you could get a SE razor blade it would cut like a light saber.
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vampyrewolf
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Postby vampyrewolf » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:34 pm

Evil D wrote:Well if you wanna split hairs (pun intended) you have to be able to compare two knives of the same model and grind before you can even come close to a factual result here. If you compare a razor blade to ANY SE then yeah it's gonna out perform it but it's more because of the extremely thin edge geometry rather than the edge itself, as even a slightly dull razor will still oiy cut most any pocket knife.

If you were to compare say, two Stretch's with each blade type, I really doubt you will see much difference in performance. I took the test and was shocked that almost all of my opinions on SE were wrong. You can even Bushcraft with a SE quite effectively. In the end edge geometry makes more difference than edge style. If you could get a SE razor blade it would cut like a light saber.
Seeing as how you joined roughly the same time that I got busy at work and essentially left here, I'll be kind. That "join date" of 2004 was a server reset... I've been here a lot longer, user# 584 of the current 22670. There are only a couple of members still around here that are lower.

I can assure you that I've done the testing myself on multiple models... and if you do any real research on the various knife forums you'll find tutorials from me on sharpening, so I'm not just blowing smoke and pulling ideas out of thin air.

It doesn't matter the grind, the steel, or the shape, a properly sharpened PE will out-cut SE in 95% of tasks. The only time I have found SE to work better is on wet rope and damp cardboard, and that is from 24 years of using knives.


If you load up a leather strip with stropping compound and run your SE along it after cleaning up the edge with the 204mf, polishing each scallop, you can see a major jump in performance from SE... including tree topping arm hair. You end up with essentially the reverse of the PE example, with a highly polished edge with macro serrations. Proper use of the leather strop will let you remove any burr.

Now, for the coles notes version of what I can turn into a full page. Put an actual 30deg bevel on the PE (verify with the 204mf), and step through the grits properly so that your edge is a perfect mirror. This CAN be done with the same grits using the 303mf and veritas green on the case. Now, hit the medium grit lightly at around 35deg for 3-4 strokes per side. You just want to roughen up the cutting edge for a little bite without touching the polished bevel.

Keeping in mind that the primary bevel on a SE is only 15deg, while the PE is 30deg... but essentially at this time your edges are as close as they'll get. Polished edge with microserrations vs Macroserrations with a polished edge. Now, try your testing again :p


You can shave with a SE, you can cut rope and cardboard with a PE. Those are the 2 examples folks seem to use when deciding on an edge. The deciding factor on choosing a knife should be ergonomics, as something that feels like an extension of your body will work better. With the selection of both companies and custom makers, this isn't hard to find. Spyderco alone has sold 837 products.
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Why do people worry more if you argue with your voices than if you just talk with them? What about if you lose those arguements?
Slowly going crazy at work... they found a way to make the voices work too.

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Postby Evil D » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:20 pm

Well, we've been playing with knives for about the same number of years, so unless being on the forum longer makes that much difference, I'd say we're pretty much on par there. I didn't get into the technical side of steels and such until a few years ago, but I'm a fast learner.

As far as your testing, how exactly are you testing and are you doing it with identical knives with the same grind and steel? Are you test for slicing performance, push cutting, draw cutting, etc? I ask because any time someone's opinion is vastly to one side or the other like yours is, I can't help but feel you're at least just a little bit biased, because up until recently I was very biased to PE knives. I have to believe that SE has been around for so long because of more than a 5% area where it out performs PE. It seems to me that the application is going to dictate a lot of which one cuts better, and you can narrow it down even further by how you use the knife. For example, if we simply slice paper, then I don't really see a difference between the two if they're both sufficiently sharp, and this goes the same way as far as push cutting, draw cutting and slicing.

So far the only down side I've found with SE is that the teeth and thickness of them sometimes causes drag when cutting through cardboard. Otherwise, when my SE is as sharp as my PE, both seem to sail through any material I put them through equally good unless the PE is a thinner grind. I have played around with every kind of edge finish on my PE knives that I can think of, from trying out a 220 grit edge to an edge polished up to 16k, I've tried stropping, I've polished the bevel and used a micro bevel at lower grits...you name it. When both SE and PE are equally sharp, I just don't see a difference between the two that I don't feel comes from the grind itself and not the edge style. I'm also unable to confirm this because I don't have a SE knife with a blade grind that's as thin as my PE knives are. My Stretch came real close, and that knife seemed to cut well enough that my opinion was that I didn't feel I was at a loss by using SE, and then there are those situations where the 5% come into play where I'm happy that I had the SE.
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Postby vampyrewolf » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:14 pm

lets see... models I've tested over the years in both versions with the same steel in both versions... 1/2 the problem here is that I've played with pretty much every model of spyderco from 99-05.

FRN delica in both ats-55 and vg-10
FRN endura in vg-10
SS police in vg-10
military in cpm440v
dragonfly in ats-55 and aus-8
merlin in ats-55
alum salsa
both drop point and reverse-S meerkat
FRN cricket in ats-55
fb05 temperance
FRN calypso jr in vg-10

and those have been used on:
* lots and lots of cardboard, including 4 layer shipping containers and a ~4" diameter 1/4" thick cardboard tube
* lots of tarp material (8oz60weave to 18oz50weave, 10-14oz duck canvas), anything from a single sheet to ~3" thick
* lots of 2mil plastic
* cable tie after cable tie
* shipping straps
* everything from bailing twine to 1/2" sisal rope
* plastic 5gal buckets with chemicals, that needed holes punched in the lids
* 22awg to 8awg wire, rg-58/59/6, lmr-400, cat5e, cat6 (SE is great for stripping, which is why I love my CE millie)
* building construction and destruction(2x4 / 4x4 / plywood / OSB modification, drywall, insulation, roofing shingles, PVC pipe)
* 8-12oz leather
* pcb modification
* opening cans of food
* YEARS of woodcraft (89-97 with scouts canada, 96-02 with 107 and 702 rcacs, the last year with 868 rcacs)


If you really want to see PE excel, get a flat ground leaf blade and drop the shoulders. My SS dragonfly that I've been abusing since 2001 has the primary bevel dead equal to the blade grind (12.5deg iirc). I actually set the stone on the flats, which means my rough edge is ~18deg. You don't want to know how abused it is. The 2nd millie I bought (2006?) has come close.
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Why do people worry more if you argue with your voices than if you just talk with them? What about if you lose those arguements?
Slowly going crazy at work... they found a way to make the voices work too.

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Postby Evil D » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:38 pm

vampyrewolf wrote: If you really want to see PE excel, get a flat ground leaf blade and drop the shoulders. My SS dragonfly that I've been abusing since 2001 has the primary bevel dead equal to the blade grind (12.5deg iirc). I actually set the stone on the flats, which means my rough edge is ~18deg. You don't want to know how abused it is. The 2nd millie I bought (2006?) has come close.
What you're saying here is what I'm trying to say. When a PE is out performing a SE by a vast margin, it's likely because of the thinness of the edge and grind of the blade. I'm not surprised that a thin blade ground to 12.5 degrees cuts like crazy. I've been meaning to do a zero grind on my ZDP Ladybug for a long time but haven't got around to it.
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Postby Evil D » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:19 am

I came really close to buying a combo edge Military the other day. My problem is that I'd rather the serrations where at the tip than at the tang. When you do heavy carving it's never with the tip, and you can still make detailed slices with the tip since there's always that 1/4 inch or so of plain edge at the tip anyway.
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All 3 are great for their intended jobs

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:21 am

To me this is not a fair poll at all. Because I like all 3 of the edge types you've put up for selection. I am a huge fan of Spyderco's great Spyderedged knives.

It really depends on what I want to use the blade for. I do use a PE blade far more than I use a fully serrated/Spyderedged blade but they all have their place.

But for the cutting jobs that the Spyderedge is good for you can't beat them. For cutting rope, leather and many other fibrous materials the Spyderedge is the all out favorite. But again I will admit that I do use a plain edge for daily usage much more than I do a Spyderedge or Combo-Edge.

But again they all have their uses and I've had great success with all 3 of the edge types you've put up for consideration. To me this is not an "either/or" poll but it truly depends on what cutting job you have in front of you.
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Postby Knivesinedc » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:44 pm

JD Spydo wrote:To me this is not a fair poll at all. Because I like all 3 of the edge types you've put up for selection. I am a huge fan of Spyderco's great Spyderedged knives.

It really depends on what I want to use the blade for. I do use a PE blade far more than I use a fully serrated/Spyderedged blade but they all have their place.

But for the cutting jobs that the Spyderedge is good for you can't beat them. For cutting rope, leather and many other fibrous materials the Spyderedge is the all out favorite. But again I will admit that I do use a plain edge for daily usage much more than I do a Spyderedge or Combo-Edge.

But again they all have their uses and I've had great success with all 3 of the edge types you've put up for consideration. To me this is not an "either/or" poll but it truly depends on what cutting job you have in front of you.
Exactly. which is why I made this poll multiple choice, which I forgot to mention :o I enjoy all 3 edge types but some people prefer SE to PE and vice versa or CE to Whatever, but they are all good it their own ways and the make models unique. I have a PE Dragonfly 2 and I love it, but I wanna get the SE Dragonfly just because the edge can make the difference
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Postby JD Spydo » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:17 pm

Knivesinedc wrote:Exactly. which is why I made this poll multiple choice, which I forgot to mention :o I enjoy all 3 edge types but some people prefer SE to PE and vice versa or CE to Whatever, but they are all good it their own ways and the make models unique. I have a PE Dragonfly 2 and I love it, but I wanna get the SE Dragonfly just because the edge can make the difference
I own all 3 of Spyderco's popular edge types and I've found practical uses from all of them. I am a huge fan of the Spyderedge so most people automatically think that I use that edge type more than others but that's just not the way it is at all. When I need a Spyderedge ( fully serrated) blade I find that nothing else compares to that edge type.

A lot of guys complain about the combo edge saying that it has just enough serration to interfere with the cutting of the plain edge part of the blade. I say that's just not the truth at all. Because if you're careful you won't have any trouble at all. There was one combo edge Endura model I used for years in my daily work and it was a great tool.

Now for the plain edged Spyderco folders you can't say enough about those. Especially the ones with the more exotic and top of the line blade steels. All 3 of the edge types are great for their intended uses. I would vote for all 3.
Long Live the SPYDEREDGE Spyderco Hawkbills RULE!!

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Postby Commendatore » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:14 am

All three blade grinds are enormous! SE works perfectly on cardboard, wood and everything that needs to be taken apart fast. PE is fabulous when you need straight/plane cuts and the SE part of a CE will give a good start for a rough material cut.
Usually I try to take a PE and a SE EDC at the same time, sometimes I reduce it to a CE blade when I feel I can only take one knife with me.
I won`t vote as I would have to take all three of them :)

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Postby Evil D » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:46 pm

Just got myself a SE Tasman Salt. It was used at the local knife shop and cost me $30, but it was very gently used. I spent some time sharpening it, and this thing cuts like crazy. I actually feel stupid that it's taken me this long to get a full sized SE/hawkbill. I have a H1/SE/hawkbill Ladybug and for its size it does pack a punch, but this Tasman Salt is a power house. I also like the older style "Delica" handle a lot more than the new version.
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