A Question for Gun Owners

[Minibear453]

Probably very unlikely.

I was speaking more towards your desired amount of penetration into a soft target.

Actually a bullet pretty much has to overpenetrate in order to be effective. Even after it strikes the intended target, a bullet may go through the target and continue through walls. The walls within a house are relatively thin and easy to penetrate. Even if the bullet has insufficient energy to penetrate the target, any self defense would go through multiple walls if it were to miss. It's impossible to design a round that will not over penetrate after a hit, yet still remain effective enough to stop an attacker.

[The Student]

Probably very unlikely.

I was speaking more towards your desired amount of penetration into a soft target.

I would have to disagree, interior walls are quite thin and offer little resistance. The round may expand but it would not give it a proper medium for the round to decelerate, allowing it to penatrate. Most modern hollow points will give penetration/velocity and expansion characteristics on their website, also search the round on YouTube one guy (tnoutdoors88, I think) does some great vids testing hollow points.

[TomAiello]

Many hollowpoints get clogged penetrating drywall, too, and essentially turn into ball, which is another argument for a high velocity rifle round (which will disintegrate and penetrate fewer walls) or a shotgun (which my it's nature is already "fragmented").

[BAL]

Since I was the first to mention a shotgun I presume you are speaking to me. I answered the OP question first and then mentioned a shotgun. Most people will not get extensive firearms training. Even getting enough ammo ro practice is difficult right now. Something simple and effective as a pump shotgun is a good alternative. The most common shotgun rounds, e.g., field bird loads, are less likely to over penetrate typical home walls as opposed to the most typical Full Metal Jacket 9mm & .40 cal rounds that do so quite easily. :cool:

Using your logic, if wanted help picking a small folder to baton kindling you wouldn't suggest using an ax or large fixed blade knife. :confused:

I wasn't referring to anyone, just making a comment, much like you were. The OP asked about a handgun
and I saw SEVERAL comments about a shotgun. Now he might read them and think, hey I never even
considered a shot gun, great idea. So all is good, as I also said in my comments.

If someone asks about batoning kindling with a small knife, then no comment will make sense to them.
A little apple to oranges, comparison but no big deal. I didn't mean anything personal, just talking to
friends.

We all makes comments on here about our experiences. I love talking guns and self defense,
actually more than knives if the truth be known. Somehow in my life, I have had numerous "situations"
lets say. They never play out like you plan them. To me personally, a shotgun is overated for home
protection. Again, I have one and use it as such too.

And I have been thinking about getting my son a 20g or 410 for home protection, so I still think that
it is a viable option. But it has some serious limitations and drawbacks. I still think that a handgun is
the best overall self defense choice for most situations. And a top grade SD ammo choice that doesn't
over penetrate.

I also tossed the TV gurus under the bus as well. Many of them follow the same general line of thought.
The Mikes on Best Defense are the best to me when it comes to talking about real life situations and they
actually re-created situations that actually happened, such as the theatre shooting.

A person should get and use what they feel comfortable with and practice and\or get training.

Stay safe.

[BAL]

IMO, most handguns have a much louder report than a shotgun. Either one is going to give you permanent hearing damage, but we are speaking of an emergence situation where hearing damage would not be the main issue.

This is a great comment and something that I NEVER hear on the TV gun shows either. Everyone
on the shows teach you what to do in a self defense scenario and they always start by putting on
eye and ear protection. Obviously this is a great suggestion.

However, in a real life situation at home, you aren't thinking about eye and ear protection, just family
protection. I believe that a person should do a little bit of training (or at least take a few shots)
WITHOUT ear protection, so that they will no what to expect.

The muffled sound at practice is much different than the real sound in a life and death scenario.
A person should know what to expect.

[BAL]

The Glock 19 is one of the best all around pistols today and is very popular for that reason. If I was going to get a new handgun, it'd be the Gen4 G19. Considering home defense, it may seem irrational to keep a firearm on you at all times, until you see something like this, Home Invasion, I don't think she'd have time to run to a safe and get a gun. A big dog would actually be a great deterrent, if Cujo comes running at the door the guy would probably have gone away, unfortunately probably just to another house.

Thanks for posting this video, everyone needs to watch it, THIS is what real life situations are all about.
They happen FAST and you don't always have time to follow a set of one by one steps and get the proper
draw and stance and put on eyes and ears and tell the bad guy to leave or he's gonna get it.

I carry at home for these type of things. I lost a **** good friend to a couple thugs with no thread of
humanity, in a situation much like this, only much worse. He had a young son that lost his father that day
for no reason. You never know when something like this will happen.

Anyone reading this, please think about taking whatever steps that you feel comfortable with, to
protect yourself and your family. You can't use a gun if you don't have it.

[kbuzbee]

I also tossed the TV gurus under the bus as well. Many of them follow the same general line of thought. The Mikes on Best Defense are the best to me when it comes to talking about real life situations and they
actually re-created situations that actually happened, such as the theatre shooting.

The things you learn around here.

I had no idea that there were "TV gurus". On home /self defense? Really? Wow, I gotta watch more TV

Ken

[BAL]

The things you learn around here.

I had no idea that there were "TV gurus". On home /self defense? Really? Wow, I gotta watch more TV

Ken

Hey, Mr. Janich is as good as is gets in my opinion and I'm not saying that because he has Spyderco
ties.There is more to learning and training than simply pulling a gun. Mike Seeklander is a great teacher
as well and you gotta love Michael Bane. Massad Ayoob has years of experience and a great common sense
approach to self defense and the law. There are others that I would classify as guru's or at least people with
valuable knowledge and experience that I have learn much from such as Ron Pincus, George Wehby, Tom
Gresham, Richard Nance, Larry Vickers, Tiger McKee, Ed Head, Aaron Roberts, Iaian Harrison, Marty Hayes
and countless others, these just popped into my head.

You can learn whatever you are willing to learn from many sources, TV included, you can't be at the range
every day.

[kbuzbee]

I know some of those names and knew they had video training, whether DVD or online. I just didn't know about being "on TV"

What channels/networks?

Ken

[BAL]

I know some of those names and knew they had video training, whether DVD or online. I just didn't know about being "on TV"

What channels/networks?

Ken

http://www.downrange.tv/blog/

Here's a link to the Downrange.tv website that carries many shows. Click on it and
pan down to THE BEST DEFENSE. It stars Michale Janich, Mike Seeklander with
Michael Bane as host. Great show, bottom line.

I have Direct TV and I believe that it is channel 605, The sportsman channel.

There are other shows as well, these are just some thru that media. I set them
up to record and watch them early in the morning on weekends before the sun
comes up. ( yeah, I'm weird that way)

[kbuzbee]

Cool, thanks brother. I'll check it out.

Ken

(nothing weird about it, btw)

[Pinetreebbs]

This is a great comment and something that I NEVER hear on the TV gun shows either. Everyone
on the shows teach you what to do in a self defense scenario and they always start by putting on
eye and ear protection. Obviously this is a great suggestion.

However, in a real life situation at home, you aren't thinking about eye and ear protection, just family
protection. I believe that a person should do a little bit of training (or at least take a few shots)
WITHOUT ear protection, so that they will no what to expect.

The muffled sound at practice is much different than the real sound in a life and death scenario.
A person should know what to expect.

You bring up a good point on training. All persons wanting to use a firearm for defense should also be familiar with muzzle flash, this is especially true with for the shorter barrels of handguns and more so with revolvers. A few rounds fired at night or in a darkened rage with the actual defense ammunition can be illuminating. I know I was very impressed firing my Model 57 S&W .41 magnum at night. :eek:

As for firing a few round unprotected I am afraid hearing is just too precious. Perhaps approaching a firing line from a distance to get an idea of how much noise firearms make. Loss of hearing is a very difficult thing to overcome and tends to isolate those that suffer hearing problems. Since I have tinnitus, a constant hissing noise in my ears, I am particularly keen to keep other from suffering this fate. I suspect the high levels of adrenalin in a shooting situation may cause one to ignore the noise of gunfire to some degree.

Through training is important, but like a State Trooper I knew in school once said, "Getting sprayed with pepper spray was mandatory training so we know what it feels like. It hurt like he!! and I think it's unnecessary, we carry firearms but we don't get shot so we know how that feels!" His actual words were a little more colorful. :)

[TomAiello]

I realize that most people aren't likely to go to all the trouble to register NFA items, but a suppressor is a really handy thing to have if you need to discharge a firearm indoors. And unfortunately, the only suppressor I've seen for a shotgun is so big that there's no way it's viable in real use.

[noseoil]

"the only suppressor I've seen for a shotgun is so big that there's no way it's viable in real use" ... Can't you just go to Midas & buy a muffler from an old Cadillac to use & some duct tape?

[TomAiello]

No kidding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASLaYVqz9kc

[RanCoWeAla]

I have a Remington 870 Wingmaster light that I love. If I could own only one gun that would be my choice. It has the short smooth bore deer barrel with rifle sights and shoots slugs as accurately as any rifle shoots at open sight distance. But, It stays locked in the safe where as I have a Glock 19 in the bed with me under the covers. The time to worry about over penetration is when your life is on the line. Then decide if you want to be murdered or take a chance on a bullet over penetrating and hitting one of the neighbors.
Never shoot anything but hot 115 grain hollowpoints in a 9mm anything heavier is too heavy and will not only be less effective but will over penetrate. You may have to change the rear sight as I had to on all three Glocks and go to one that is higher with three marks on the side. Because a gun will always shoot low with light fast bullets since the bullet exits the barrel immediately. However a gun will most likely shoot high with slow extremely heavy bullets because the bullet remains in the barrel until recoil begins to take place throwing the round high.

[enduraguy]

I always wonder why people in a SD situation (movies especially :) ) wouldn't ALREADY HAVE A ROUND CHAMBERED?!? You're going into a dark alley following a bad guy and now you think it's a good time to load your weapon??

As for caliber, the bigger the hole you make the faster blood pressure drops.

According to Hollywood its more dramatic if people have to "rack" the firearm before bringing it into action. I also vote for Glock. Parts are easy to find, inexpensive, rarely need replacement, etc. I would never fire a shotgun in my house. I don't like the idea of destroying more of my things if I pull the trigger. Nor being responsible for each one of those 9 to however many pieces of lead shot.
On the hearing damage thing..... Oh well i would happily trade some hearing for several more years of life and its going to be the last thing on my mind.

[RanCoWeAla]

Jeff Cooper used to say put your pump shotgun up loaded with trigger down on an empty chamber and when an intruder heard you rack the slide it would most likely be enough deterent that you wouldn't have to use the gun. Also it takes pressure off your firing pin spring.

[jeep45238]

Jeff Cooper used to say put your pump shotgun up loaded with trigger down on an empty chamber and when an intruder heard you rack the slide it would most likely be enough deterent that you wouldn't have to use the gun. Also it takes pressure off your firing pin spring.

I've never, ever seen a case where that actually worked in court. I can think of many times where lead has worked though.


I'll trust my life to an aimed projectile - not a noise.

[doctorknife]

Why not the USP ?