A Question for Gun Owners

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TomAiello
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Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:43 am

D1omedes wrote:I am just curious about what advice you guys have for a new shooter.

1) Get some good training. It's worth the money. It's especially worth the money if you do it first thing--before you can develop bad habits that may be hard to break.
2) The difference between the M&P and the Glock really comes down to personal preference. I own both and I don't think that either is appreciably better/more reliable/easier to shoot.
3) Download some pistol training targets (links below) and really use them when you start shooting. Don't just blaze off a dozen rounds--shoot slow and smooth, considering your form for every pull of the trigger.
4) Dry fire practice is cheap, easy and quick, and can really help your form. It can be really useful to dry fire with your eyes closed and focus on feeling the movement of the firearm in your hand as you go through the motions.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/u ... tright.jpg
http://blog.gunlink.info/wp-content/upl ... rtR1St.jpg
http://www.centerfiretraining.com/siteb ... /wheel.gif

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Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:47 am

kbuzbee wrote:In an apartment environment, you need to be even more careful about over penetration. Just a thought.
Definitely true. In my experience, 9mm is the worst over-penetrator, but all handgun rounds are pretty bad in wallboard.

Box o' Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com) has some interesting (but not terribly scientific) penetration testing results.

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Postby Clip » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:51 am

I always wonder why people in a SD situation (movies especially :) ) wouldn't ALREADY HAVE A ROUND CHAMBERED?!? You're going into a dark alley following a bad guy and now you think it's a good time to load your weapon??

As for caliber, the bigger the hole you make the faster blood pressure drops.
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Postby BAL » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:24 am

I find it funny when people ask about what "handgun" they should get for SD,
people starting tossing out shotguns and other weapons rather than what they
asked about. I am not getting jerky boy here, and I understand that people just
want to add to the topic by saying what they feel is better. No big deal, offer the
choices and let them decide.

However, I have a 12 gauge, AR, multiple other rifles and handguns and countess
other SD items and I will always go for a 9mm handgun at home or on the road.

Self Defense situations don't go the way that you think that they will. The perp isn't
necessarily standing right there looking at you and listening to you pump that 12
gauge so he can hear it and get scared and run off.
I hear some of my favorite gun people on TV go on and on about the sound of loading
that shotgun and the over-penetrating bullet. There are many SD 9mm rounds that do
what they were designed to do and don't go on and on for mile after mile passing thru
house after house. (It is something to consider, but I think that some like to over-react
to overpenetation issue)

You need something that you have trained with and are completely comfortable with.
Something that you have use in the dark, that can be easily manipulated around the
house. You might need one hand free for a flashlight or to lead a love one down the
hall, or to move furniture around. A shotgun usually takes two hands, especially to
reload unless its an auto. You can reach around a wall or the bed or other corner with
a handgun leaving more of your body protected. With a shotgun, you have to get more
of your body exposed to be able to shoot.

You want as many rounds as you can possibly have as well. A shotgun doesn't hold
as many rounds as most handguns. Nothing against the shotgun either, I have one
ready to use JIC, and in certain circumstances it "might" be a better option.

However, in most circumstances, I prefer the mobility and other options that a
handgun gives you.

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Postby kbuzbee » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:37 pm

BAL wrote:I find it funny when people ask about what "handgun" they should get for SD,
people starting tossing out shotguns and other weapons rather than what they
asked about. I am not getting jerky boy here, and I understand that people just
want to add to the topic by saying what they feel is better. No big deal, offer the
choices and let them decide.
Exactly right brother. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread. Some folks only think of handguns for SD/HD and I was pointing out there are alternatives. In Sal's words, not better or worse, just different. (an aside, why on TV do they always grab a golf club when there's an intruder? ;) ) We have pistols, wheel guns and the Ithica. I'd use any of them but the Ithica is my baby ;) And you're right, the Glock holds a few more rounds, the revolvers actually hold less. But if the situation can't be resolved in 5-6 shots I have bigger problems.

All that said, I hope to never put it to the test.

Ken
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alerin
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Postby alerin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:48 pm

I would suggest a G17 with a couple 33 round magazines.

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Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:12 pm

alerin wrote:I would suggest a G17 with a couple 33 round magazines.
I own two G17's and have put tens of thousands of rounds downrange with them, but in this case, I wonder if it's not the wrong solution.

The original poster is looking for a single handgun to meet his needs. He may eventually decide to carry that handgun after obtaining a concealed carry permit. I find the G19/23/32 frame much easier to conceal than the G17/22/31 frame.

If he was looking for one handgun for HD and one for CCW, I'd say a good combo would be the G34 (or M&P 9L) for home and the G19 (or M&P 9C) for carry. If he wanted only one handgun that could potentially fill that need, I think the right one is the compact (G19 or M&P 9C).

I would also tend toward having some 33 round factory magazines as backups, especially for HD scenarios. They can suck to carry (I can only conceal them well in the winter, with heavier clothing, and I'm not sure how much clothing he'd be wearing in Texas, even in the winter), but in a dynamic situation the ability to not need reloading can be a game changer.

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Postby TomAiello » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:15 pm

Another piece of advice for the OP:

What you load a handgun with is often more important than the caliber. Be sure you research whatever load you decide to use for actual defense scenarios, and that you're happy with it's performance. My personal favorite 9mm load is the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+, but there are many other premium factory loads I'd be happy to trust in a dangerous situation, like Speer Gold Dots, for example. I'd much rather have a 9 loaded up with Ranger +P+ than a 45 loaded with standard pressure 230 grain ball ammo.

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Postby wrdwrght » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:36 pm

I don't believe you can go wrong with either a Glock or an M&P, provided it is comfortable and points well for you, and provided you don't get one of those Gen4 Glocks or early version M&Ps that has been rumored on the Net to be problem-prone... Nor can you go wrong with 9/40/45 jacketed hollow-points from reputable manufacturers, provided you can hit your target where it matters.

For home defense, I happen to prefer hammer-fired DA/SA pistols (I have several SIGs and a CZ) to striker-fired "safe-action" ones. I want my nightstand SIG229's stiffer first pull to ask me if I really want to proceed...

However, I do have a very-comfortable-for-me M&P40c as a possible carry gun. I have found mine to be combat-accurate out to 10 yards (a full-size M&P, what with its longer sight radius, could even be made bullseye-accurate with enough practice, given that shooting is not just about self-defense). In my day-to-day life, however, I judge the need to carry to be low enough not to risk what Wes Denham so colorfully describes. YMMV.
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Postby Pinetreebbs » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:50 pm

TomAiello wrote:Have you fired a shotgun indoors?

In my opinion, if you want to use a shotgun for HD, good hearing protection for yourself and any other family members in the house is mandatory, not optional. The same is true for a rifle.

If I was looking for an "ultimate" home defense firearm, I'd probably go with a semi-auto rifle with a 20 or more round magazine and a suppressor, as well as several sets of electronic hearing protection (for the whole family). In fact, I'd go with multiple rifles (one for each adult in the household) and make them bull pups for easier indoor handling. But you'll be north of $5000 by the time you buy two AUGs, FS2000s or Tavors and their corresponding optical sights, hearing protection, suppressors and weapon lights.

D1, you list your location as Texas (which is a shall issue state). Are you likely to want to carry your firearm outside your home?
IMO, most handguns have a much louder report than a shotgun. Either one is going to give you permanent hearing damage, but we are speaking of an emergence situation where hearing damage would not be the main issue.
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Postby Pinetreebbs » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:08 pm

BAL wrote:I find it funny when people ask about what "handgun" they should get for SD,
people starting tossing out shotguns and other weapons rather than what they
asked about. I am not getting jerky boy here, and I understand that people just
want to add to the topic by saying what they feel is better. No big deal, offer the
choices and let them decide.

However, I have a 12 gauge, AR, multiple other rifles and handguns and countess
other SD items and I will always go for a 9mm handgun at home or on the road.

Self Defense situations don't go the way that you think that they will. The perp isn't
necessarily standing right there looking at you and listening to you pump that 12
gauge so he can hear it and get scared and run off.
I hear some of my favorite gun people on TV go on and on about the sound of loading
that shotgun and the over-penetrating bullet. There are many SD 9mm rounds that do
what they were designed to do and don't go on and on for mile after mile passing thru
house after house. (It is something to consider, but I think that some like to over-react
to overpenetation issue)

You need something that you have trained with and are completely comfortable with.
Something that you have use in the dark, that can be easily manipulated around the
house. You might need one hand free for a flashlight or to lead a love one down the
hall, or to move furniture around. A shotgun usually takes two hands, especially to
reload unless its an auto. You can reach around a wall or the bed or other corner with
a handgun leaving more of your body protected. With a shotgun, you have to get more
of your body exposed to be able to shoot.

You want as many rounds as you can possibly have as well. A shotgun doesn't hold
as many rounds as most handguns. Nothing against the shotgun either, I have one
ready to use JIC, and in certain circumstances it "might" be a better option.

However, in most circumstances, I prefer the mobility and other options that a
handgun gives you.
kbuzbee wrote:Exactly right brother. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread. Some folks only think of handguns for SD/HD and I was pointing out there are alternatives. In Sal's words, not better or worse, just different. (an aside, why on TV do they always grab a golf club when there's an intruder? ;) ) We have pistols, wheel guns and the Ithica. I'd use any of them but the Ithica is my baby ;) And you're right, the Glock holds a few more rounds, the revolvers actually hold less. But if the situation can't be resolved in 5-6 shots I have bigger problems.

All that said, I hope to never put it to the test.

Ken
Since I was the first to mention a shotgun I presume you are speaking to me. I answered the OP question first and then mentioned a shotgun. Most people will not get extensive firearms training. Even getting enough ammo ro practice is difficult right now. Something simple and effective as a pump shotgun is a good alternative. The most common shotgun rounds, e.g., field bird loads, are less likely to over penetrate typical home walls as opposed to the most typical Full Metal Jacket 9mm & .40 cal rounds that do so quite easily. :cool:

Using your logic, if wanted help picking a small folder to baton kindling you wouldn't suggest using an ax or large fixed blade knife. :confused:
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Postby alerin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:38 pm

I thought the G17 because it was mentioned the G19 felt small. If I carry a glock, I agree, it's the G19 or G26, and for the 33 rnd mags, only practical usage for me is home SD or at the range.

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Postby RanCoWeAla » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:44 pm

If I was buying a Glock I wouldn't have anything but 9mm because that's what it was originally developed around and no gun is ever better than in the original caliber. On the other hand if buying a 45 it would be a 1911 because that's what it was built around. I've owned several of both but prefer the Glock over anything..I have a 17.19.and 26 each one for its own role. The 17 for the house the 26 for going mobile in a hurry because you can just stick it in your pocket and go. The 19 was the first one I owned its a wonderful little gun that can do either in a pinch with 15 hollowpoints. I would do the same thing again buy the 19 then 26 and finally the 17

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:26 pm

RanCoWeAla wrote:If I was buying a Glock I wouldn't have anything but 9mm because that's what it was originally developed around and no gun is ever better than in the original caliber. On the other hand if buying a 45 it would be a 1911 because that's what it was built around. I've owned several of both but prefer the Glock over anything..I have a 17.19.and 26 each one for its own role. The 17 for the house the 26 for going mobile in a hurry because you can just stick it in your pocket and go. The 19 was the first one I owned its a wonderful little gun that can do either in a pinch with 15 hollowpoints. I would do the same thing again buy the 19 then 26 and finally the 17
I agree with your points here. Just one off topic question, wasn't the 1911 originally in .38 super?

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Postby FarmerTed » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:13 pm

The Glock 19 is one of the best all around pistols today and is very popular for that reason. If I was going to get a new handgun, it'd be the Gen4 G19. Considering home defense, it may seem irrational to keep a firearm on you at all times, until you see something like this, Home Invasion, I don't think she'd have time to run to a safe and get a gun. A big dog would actually be a great deterrent, if Cujo comes running at the door the guy would probably have gone away, unfortunately probably just to another house.

ETA: The .38 Super was designed for the 1911. Due to the war in the Phillipines, the Army specified the next handgun to be in a caliber of .45 or larger.

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Postby Pinetreebbs » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:25 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:I agree with your points here. Just one off topic question, wasn't the 1911 originally in .38 super?
Good call Chuck. I thought the .45 came first, although it wasn't exactly the .38 Super, the following says you are closer to being correct:
In the mean time, J. Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar to contemporary .38 Super (dimension-wise). When the Army announced its interest in a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this handgun to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design (with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet), and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation....

...In 1929, Colt also produced a 1911 pistol, based on the new .38 Super cartridge...
The Super was introduced in the late 1920s as a higher pressure loading of the .38 ACP or .38 Auto.

Reference: http://www.m1911.org/history.htm
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Postby xceptnl » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:09 pm

D1omedes,
I agree with the multitude of suggestions above. It is about what fits your hand best and what will give you the most confidence. I probably wouldn't put too much stock into your initial accuracyresults, practice and rounds on target will really tell the truth. I have neither, but have shot both. The same internal struggle troubles me to this day. I have a smaller grip so the G21SF was the only Glock model I ever felt comfortable shooting. The changeable back straps have changed that a lot. I have been leaning towards the M&P, but I need more research as well.

Regarding caliber, it will all depend on what you think is your desired result. Do you want more rounds, or more bullet penetration distance, or possible a larger wound channel. In the real world, with full sized modern firearm consisting of 13+ rounds of ammunition, you should still put lots of holes in unwanted intruders.

On a final note, I would avoid ported barrels and you need a weapon light mount for at least the option to add weapon mounted illumination later.
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Postby D1omedes » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:31 pm

How likely is it that a modern, 9mm hollow point will over penetrate a wall within a home or apartment?

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Postby xceptnl » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:33 pm

D1omedes wrote:How likely is it that a modern, 9mm hollow point will over penetrate a wall within a home or apartment?
Probably very unlikely.

I was speaking more towards your desired amount of penetration into a soft target.
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Postby RanCoWeAla » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:50 pm

In the Glock 17, 19, and 26 all the magazines will fit the 26 up to the 33 round and the 17 mag. will fit the 19 etc. Also the barrel from the 19 will fit and function perfectly in the 26 it just protrudes an inch out the front of the slide. I know this to be a fact because I saw an article on this subject in Guns & Ammo several years ago and tried it myself. It actually looks kinda cool.
As you may have guessed by now I love the Glock 9mm because of all the above and the light recoil since I have bad arthritis. They say the polymer frame actually flexes a tiny bit when you fire and I believe it. A Glock 19 doesn't seem to have much more recoil than a .22


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