Vegans and Vegetarianism and the Animal Rights Issue

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bh49
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Postby bh49 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:53 am

I am little surprise that this thread still goes.
My point of view is fairly simple: to everybody - eat whatever you like and let me do the same. No cruelty to animals - this is not human. I do not love animals more than humans. But I love dogs as much as people, may be a little more. Cruelty against dogs deserve jail time. I never had a dog and have no plans to get one, probably my feelings are on genetic level. I have few friends and relatives, who have dogs and I am enjoying time, which I spend with them. My boss bringing to work his great Dane and couple Ducksons every day and we are good friends. I never completely understood hunting. I can be wrong, but if somebody needs adrenalin rush, just go to visit any gangland.
I do not like moles and racoons :( . Bad experience.
jackknifeh wrote: Even the millionairs who pay $100,000 for a coat. This is not an animal rights issue. This is a purely STUPIDITY issue IMO.
Jack
Jack as much as I agree with you on most of what you said and with a lot what your wife feels, I cannot agree on this one. There are number of people, who thinking that spending $100 on a pocket knife is stupid as well. What about millions of dollars for paintings or just a fragment of broken Greek vase, which is 3-5 thousand yeas old.
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Raylas
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Postby Raylas » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:39 am

If I may interject for a moment, I believe I have a unique angle on this topic. I have Crohn's Disease, and as a result, several people have suggested veganism as a possible treatment for my ailment. While I do appreciate the sentiment, I do not think that would be a good idea for me. I've found that due to my body's instability, I need LOTS of protein, and the quickest ready source is meat. So while eating meat might be a choice for some people, I don't get a say in the matter. I TRIED cutting meat from my diet and using supplements. I lost 30 pounds in under a month, and suffered other highly unpleasant side effects.

As for my thoughts on animal welfare: I do indeed think that animals should live happily and be killed humanely, and I will support those causes though organizations that are moderate and civil.

BAL
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Postby BAL » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:55 pm

Monocrom wrote:And yet, I've known many vegetarians who have been hospitalized or have had to go back to eating meat because their bodies weren't getting the proteins needed. Known others who needed to take special supplements. When you have to do that, the terms "unnatural," "necessary," and "requirement;" fits.
Thats a great point, there are many more cases of vegetarians being hospitalized due
to poor health than non vegetarians having heart attacks due to abusing their dietary
choice.

I don't care what a person eats or doesn't eat, but trying to make a claim that
a person that chooses to be a vegetarian is a health risk is a huge jump.
I would venture to say that most vegetarians are more health conscious that their
counterparts.

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Monocrom
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Postby Monocrom » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:22 pm

BAL wrote: I would venture to say that most vegetarians are more health conscious that their
counterparts.
Based on? . . .

My point is, a person who has a balanced diet that includes meat is going to do better than someone who ignores the fact that God, Nature, Evolution, or whatever Deity one believes in; clearly intended human beings to eat meat as part of their diet. If one wishes not to eat meat, then one must find substitutes for what the body got from consuming meat. If that isn't done, don't be surprised if health issues (yes even serious ones) develop. I've met and spoken with vegetarians. Literally ALL of the ones who were successful at it for several years admitted that they had to find substitutes or use supplements. The ones who failed at it were the ones who thought that eliminating meat and simply eating more vegetables was all that was required. That's my main point.
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Evil D
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Postby Evil D » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:23 pm

I have a vegan coworker who recently made the change to eating some dairy products because he broke his collar bone and it took about 6 months to heal. His doctor said it was because he was basically malnourished because of his diet. I think at some point there's a line that's crossed for the sake of being vegan and it goes beyond what is best for your body. I know quite a few vegan folks and most all of them have the mindset that they do it for the sake of animal cruelty/treatment/rights and not so much for what's most healthy for their body. Moderation in all things is the key. If we were meant to eat nothing but veggies we wouldn't have canine teeth.
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araneae
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Postby araneae » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:16 pm

Evil D wrote:I have a vegan coworker who recently made the change to eating some dairy products because he broke his collar bone and it took about 6 months to heal. His doctor said it was because he was basically malnourished because of his diet. I think at some point there's a line that's crossed for the sake of being vegan and it goes beyond what is best for your body. I know quite a few vegan folks and most all of them have the mindset that they do it for the sake of animal cruelty/treatment/rights and not so much for what's most healthy for their body. Moderation in all things is the key. If we were meant to eat nothing but veggies we wouldn't have canine teeth.
There are ways of easily meeting dietary requirements for calcium without consuming dairy. Most alternative milks (almond, soy, rice, coconut) now have a great deal more calcium than cow milk. Dark leafy greens, tofu and beans are also good sources of calcium. Anyone making a decision to alter their diet should be certain that they are educated on their bodies' needs.

Studies in the last few years have found up to 75% of Americans are calcium deficient. In 2012 about 5% percent of the population identified as vegetarian, and only 2% identified as vegan. That leaves a lot of meat eating, dairy consuming Americans with calcium deficiency. Just sayin.
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BAL
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Postby BAL » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:12 am

There may be some vegetarians that lack protein, but most that I know are aware
that you need to supplement with another source of protein, that's Food 101. Of
course there are people with a lack of common sense that decide to go vegan and
don't supplement. Some may just want to be part of the "in crowd" and be different
and not think things out completely. In my experiences though, most that are
vegetarian maintain a proper balance with other sources of protein.

However, I also know many, many meat eating people that lack in veggie intake,
and I am sure they would be considered defient in those areas.

Hey Monocrom, I just wanted to point out that I am not "arguing" with you or anyone
else for that matter, I sometime enjoy a good discussion on certain topics. This happens
to be one. My brothers and other family members have argued the same points that you
have made, using lets say the un-censored version.

I just feel like a person can do whatever they feel is right for them as long as their actions
don't affect others. Sometimes that's a thin line between right and wrong, legal and non-legal.

Anyway, take care.....and eat your veggies.

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Evil D
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Postby Evil D » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:16 am

araneae wrote:There are ways of easily meeting dietary requirements for calcium without consuming dairy. Most alternative milks (almond, soy, rice, coconut) now have a great deal more calcium than cow milk. Dark leafy greens, tofu and beans are also good sources of calcium. Anyone making a decision to alter their diet should be certain that they are educated on their bodies' needs.

Studies in the last few years have found up to 75% of Americans are calcium deficient. In 2012 about 5% percent of the population identified as vegetarian, and only 2% identified as vegan. That leaves a lot of meat eating, dairy consuming Americans with calcium deficiency. Just sayin.
No idea man...just going by what an actual vegan told me that his doctor told him. We've talked quite a bit about his diet and from what he says he's pretty informed on all this stuff.
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The Deacon
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Postby The Deacon » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:25 pm

The way I see it, common sense is not all that common. I seriously doubt the percentage of those who have common sense is much different among those who voluntarily restrict their diet in some manner than in those who are totally omnivorous. But even for those who are heath conscious, whether vegetarian or omnivorous, "nutritional science" seems more aptly called "nutritional magic 8 ball". The list of foods that are "good for you" and those that are "bad for you" changes from year to year, so knowing what you should and shouldn't eat and drink to stay healthy is something of a guessing game. I'm also inclined to believe that our individual "death clock" was set a birth. Accidents and poor choices can speed it up, but nothing can slow it down. Deciding to eliminate animal products from one's diet can accelerate it if that decision is based primarily on feelings about unrelated issues like animal rights or global warming rather than on a genuine interest in one's own health. I think it's fair to say that there are some in the vegan community who see themselves as martyrs for a cause rather than folks trying to live healthier lives.
SolidState wrote:You're still missing the point which is not uncommon. My argument didn't hinge on the numbers of people involved in a religion, it relied on the fact that there are people with completely legitimate deities and practices who follow gods that command vegetarianism. I'm fine with conceding the numbers point, look above. It is relatively inconsequential to my argument, and the only part of my argument you can shred. Enjoy shredding what's already been shredded, it is not the point, nor does it negate the basis of my argument. I don't care if there are three thousand or three billion people with a god demanding vegetarianism, they can believe in their god just as much as any Christian believes in his or hers.

While we're being nitpicky about satellite issues: FYI Deacon, it's spelled 'Muslims' these days, and for good reason: http://hnn.us/articles/524.html
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/janq82y1.htm I suppose I won't expect to be trusted on demographic information, just as I won't be approaching you for cultural sensitivity seminars any time soon.
I'm most definitely not the poster boy for cultural sensitivity. Borderline misanthrope is more like it. OTOH, the only folks I'm intentionally insensitive toward are those who have done something to earn my disrespect. Otherwise, I couldn't care less about What any group requires of its members, or how they deal with members who have strayed from the fold. Generally, I can even manage to listen politely while they explain their philosophy, even if deep inside I just want to burst out laughing. But, when one of their members tries to shove his views down my throat or call me names for not joining their little circle, I reserve the right to tell him exactly how ridiculous I find it and if I see a pattern of similar behavior from multiple members of that group then the whole group becomes fair game for ridicule. Likewise, if it becomes obvious that violence toward "non-believers" is acceptable to a group, any shred of tolerance I might have felt toward them goes straight out the window and I will treat each and every member of that group with the same degree of caution I use when encountering certain breeds of dogs.

As for missing the point, your initial argument was posted in rebuttal to a post that never claimed that the God of the Bible was the only god, or that there might not be other deities with different views on the consumption of meat and/or "reverence for life". It was, in fact, a rather well constructed IF A AND B THEN C conditional statement. Your interpretation of that post not only missed the point, it tells me that your cultural sensitivity, like mine, is somewhat selective.

In regard to your other pointless point, I can't say I'm the least bit surprised that some segment of a community that can be outraged to the point of organized violence and vandalism on an international scale by a cartoon or a movie would invent one more reason to take offense. It also appears the rationale for avoiding that spelling is less than universally accepted and seems to hinge on the way one pronounces the s which both spellings contain.

We do, however, appear to agree on one important point. Namely that everyone has a right to decide, for whatever reasons, what they will and won't consume but they do not have the right to attempt to impose their culinary choices, or their rationale for those choices, on others.
Paul
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chuck_roxas45
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:12 pm

bh49 wrote:I am little surprise that this thread still goes.
My point of view is fairly simple: to everybody - eat whatever you like and let me do the same. No cruelty to animals - this is not human. I do not love animals more than humans. But I love dogs as much as people, may be a little more. Cruelty against dogs deserve jail time. I never had a dog and have no plans to get one, probably my feelings are on genetic level. I have few friends and relatives, who have dogs and I am enjoying time, which I spend with them. My boss bringing to work his great Dane and couple Ducksons every day and we are good friends. I never completely understood hunting. I can be wrong, but if somebody needs adrenalin rush, just go to visit any gangland.
I do not like moles and racoons :( . Bad experience.

Jack as much as I agree with you on most of what you said and with a lot what your wife feels, I cannot agree on this one. There are number of people, who thinking that spending $100 on a pocket knife is stupid as well. What about millions of dollars for paintings or just a fragment of broken Greek vase, which is 3-5 thousand yeas old.
I like dogs more, than some people. :D

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Postby BAL » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:24 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:I like dogs more, than some people. :D
... and I like dogs more, than MOST people. :rolleyes:

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Postby jzmtl » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:01 pm

Evil D wrote:I have a vegan coworker who recently made the change to eating some dairy products because he broke his collar bone and it took about 6 months to heal. His doctor said it was because he was basically malnourished because of his diet. I think at some point there's a line that's crossed for the sake of being vegan and it goes beyond what is best for your body. I know quite a few vegan folks and most all of them have the mindset that they do it for the sake of animal cruelty/treatment/rights and not so much for what's most healthy for their body. Moderation in all things is the key. If we were meant to eat nothing but veggies we wouldn't have canine teeth.
Not so much as malnourished but unbalanced diet. Meat has everything we need, any one vegetable doesn't. It's perfectly possible to be healthy as vegetarian but one needs to be aware of what vegetable has what and complement them to get full range of nutrients. Unfortunately many vegetarians are unaware of this.

As far as animal rights, like many other issues, a good intention ruined by extremists.


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