Vegans and Vegetarianism and the Animal Rights Issue

[kbuzbee]

Respecting others choices and freedoms doesn't come naturally to you does it?

I'm not sure that was where he was going, Joe. While we surely don't need any more government interference than we already have, I do believe that we've become completely alienated from where our food comes from. To our detriment.

Food comes from plants and animals, not Safeway. I think we'd all be better off with a healthier respect for that fact.

sausage/pepperoni pizza,

Whoa, wait... What? :o No, no, no, no, no.......... Don't disrespect the Pan, man!



Ken

[kbuzbee]

To bad we can't get into a full blown discussion of Genesis. It's a fascinating topic.

Can we start with Revelations, and work backward? (if there's time )

Ken

[araneae]

As with any life choice, there are extremists. I have been a vegetarian since 1998. Around that time, I started reading/researching the factory farming/food industry and decided to go Vegetarian. I also recently greatly reduced my dairy consumption. I believe I am healthier for it and don't feel like I am missing out on anything.

I do not chastise anyone for eating meat, but I can tell you that I have someone question my dietary choices, taunt or "jokingly" offer me meat several times a month. If someone asks why I am a vegetarian I answer their questions and offer advice if that is what they are looking for. I can recommend some books to anyone interested in learning more about the meat/food industry or healthier eating. I am 100% certain that if people had to watch their dinner raised and processed before they ate it, there would be a LOT more vegetarians/vegans in the world. Ignorance is bliss.

If you do eat meat, I encourage you to source from local, family farms and look into their practices. Try to eat organic, sometimes it is not that much more expensive. That old adage that you are what you eat is true. Eat healthy, be healthier.

[The Mastiff]

I'm not sure that was where he was going, Joe. While we surely don't need any more government interference than we already have, I do believe that we've become completely alienated from where our food comes from. To our detriment.

Food comes from plants and animals, not Safeway. I think we'd all be better off with a healthier respect for that fact.

Actually I'm hoping he is realizing I'm not serious Ken. He's a good guy or I wouldn't try joking around with him. I'm just (wrongly) applying a stereotype to him about Liberals only being considerate of the rights and privileges they agree with.

To be honest He's not really all that liberal. He just plays one on TV sometimes. :)

Oh, and stereotypes don't work in real life either. Humans have a way of just being like that no matter how much we try to throw labels around.

I'm not a classic conservative either, come to think of it. ****, I probably should go back and delete it before he thinks I'm serious. :)

Now the OP is trying to create disharmony or something here. It won't work though. :D

Joe

[araneae]

I would like to address these 2 statements directly.

I point out to them that even the most vegan person in some way consumes products that in some form benefit from animal use and animal death, such as fertilizers and pesticides.

Please expand on how the use of fertilizer equates directly to animal use/death? Also, if a person's lifestyle choice is mostly positive, but has a small drawback or area of inconsistency, does that negate/invalidate the overall result of their life choice?

It is the hunters and fishermen and other sportsmen and sportswomen who do more to help and conserve nature than the animal rights vegan crowd. Am I right about this everyone?

As someone who works in the conservation/natural resource field, I can say that this is not necessarily the case. Certainly there are sporting organizations that are helpful to conservation efforts, but there are also organizations that exist only to provide a place to hunt/fish and have little care for the health of those natural systems or their proper management. There are lots of sportsmen out there who have little knowledge of the natural world other than the fact that this is where they hunt, there are also some that are very educated in the topic. In general, some revenue from sales of hunting licenses and tags certainly ends up returning to state efforts at natural resource management. In this respect, your statement has merit.

Making blanket statements such as you have done, requires providing the proper facts or life experiences to qualify them.

[Holland]

I will support anyone fighting for animal rights, as far as treating them better before they're slaughtered. Better living conditions, etc. However, I fully believe that humans are top of the food chain and have every right to eat any animal on Earth. I don't support mass slaughter and near extinction of animals, and I don't support things like shark fin soup where the shark is left to die after getting its fins cut off. I believe if you're going to kill an animal for food you need to process the entire animal and use everything you can for food and not let it go to waste. The food processing industry is an evil thing, but it's a necessary evil thing. I would love it if we could all go out and hunt and provide for ourselves, but lifestyles just don't allow it, not to mention we would quickly extinguish deer populations if the however many billion people in America all started hunting at the same time.

This has always been my mindset as well. i looked up some shark fin articles and that is pretty sick tbh

[angusW]

Two of my nieces, both 26, are vegans. They both started when they were in university. My wife and myself have noticed that over the last 6 or 7 years that they have been vegan that their physical appearance has changed significantly in that they are both very skinny and seem unhealthy. I'm not saying they are unhealthy, they just appear so. When they come to dinner at my house with other family my wife prepares a meal with numerous meat dishes as well as vegetables. Neither of them complain about the meat dishes and I caught the one eating some fish the last time they were here.

One of my nieces had a house warming party a few years ago. My wife, daughter and I attended. Most of my nieces' friends were also vegans and I found them to be quite rude and viscous people. My niece really is a nice and respectful person but I really did not enjoy being around her friends and told her so a few days later.

I'm sure it's not 100% of the time but I've noticed with the vegans that I've met that they are not Christians but tend to lean more towards a mother earth/gaia belief system. Being a Christian myself I know that animals are to be treated well but eating them is not going against the word of Jesus so there is no moral issue with the consumption of meat. As a Christian I also know that factory farming is not the right way to do it. The "Get big or get out" motto that the giants believe in will result in our food being corrupted more and more. Funny thing is that also aligns with the mother earth/vegan types though most of them don't realize that God had said to leave a field fallow.

[kbuzbee]

Actually I'm hoping he is realizing I'm not serious Ken. He's a good guy or I wouldn't try joking around with him. I'm just (wrongly) applying a stereotype to him about Liberals only being considerate of the rights and privileges they agree with.

To be honest He's not really all that liberal. He just plays one on TV sometimes. :)

Thanks for bringing me up to speed, Joe. I WAS getting a little worried there for a second. I'm feeling MUCH better, now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHs ... ata_player

Ken

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I would like to address these 2 statements directly.



Please expand on how the use of fertilizer equates directly to animal use/death? Also, if a person's lifestyle choice is mostly positive, but has a small drawback or area of inconsistency, does that negate/invalidate the overall result of their life choice?

for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_meal Bone meal from animals is used in fertilizer and animal products break down in soil and so vegans and vegetarians are eating materials that in assorted ways benefit from animal products.

As someone who works in the conservation/natural resource field, I can say that this is not necessarily the case. Certainly there are sporting organizations that are helpful to conservation efforts, but there are also organizations that exist only to provide a place to hunt/fish and have little care for the health of those natural systems or their proper management. There are lots of sportsmen out there who have little knowledge of the natural world other than the fact that this is where they hunt, there are also some that are very educated in the topic. In general, some revenue from sales of hunting licenses and tags certainly ends up returning to state efforts at natural resource management. In this respect, your statement has merit.

Making blanket statements such as you have done, requires providing the proper facts or life experiences to qualify them.

This is from the fish and wildlife service site directly:

" What do hunters do for conservation?

A lot. The sale of hunting licenses, tags, and stamps is the primary source of funding for most state wildlife conservation efforts.

By respecting seasons and limits, purchasing all required licences, and paying federal excise taxes on hunting equipment and ammunition, individual hunters make a big contribution towards ensuring the future of many species of wildlife and habitat for the future. By paying the Federal excise tax on hunting equipment, hunters are contributing hundreds of millions of dollars for conservation programs that benefit many wildlife species, both hunted and non- hunted.

Each year, nearly $200 million in hunters' federal excise taxes are distributed to State agencies to support wildlife management programs, the purchase of lands open to hunters, and hunter education and safety classes. Proceeds from the Federal Duck Stamp, a required purchase for migratory waterfowl hunters, have purchased more than five million acres of habitat for the refuge system (2005 statistics only); lands that support waterfowl and many other wildlife species, and are usually open to hunting.

Local hunting clubs and national conservation organizations work to protect the future of wildlife by setting aside thousands of acres of habitat and speaking up for conservation in our national and state capitals. "

http://www.fws.gov/hunting/whatdo.html

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Amen, brother. I have found the same thing.

[SolidState]

Actually I'm hoping he is realizing I'm not serious Ken. He's a good guy or I wouldn't try joking around with him. I'm just (wrongly) applying a stereotype to him about Liberals only being considerate of the rights and privileges they agree with.

To be honest He's not really all that liberal. He just plays one on TV sometimes. :)

Joe

I get Joe's humor, and like it a lot. I'm not easily offended, but I'm religious enough to believe in a god that's not too into the meat thing.

[SolidState]

Have to get a license to eat whatever animal you want to eat huh?

Respecting others choices and freedoms doesn't come naturally to you does it? Please no " Cost to society" lectures. :) .

Joe

Hey Joe, I think it is really strange that people give their freedom to kill and eat certain species like fish, deer, and other wild harvests up to licensure but all of a sudden cows, pigs and chickens are free to be treated as garbage animals that don't deserve the respect of a respectable habitat. Every animal that I've had to get a license to hunt, process and eat has given me a respect for their natural habitat, life cycle, anatomy and unique flavor profile based upon those last three aspects. My environmentalism only comes from my interest in good food for me, my kids, grandkids and their grandkids. I think a lot about our food industry would change immediately if middle schoolers and high schoolers had to tour the places where their meat was coming from and participate in the slaughter of their food.

It's not too far off from what my grandpa and father had to do, or what hunters do while they inculcate children. If anything, I suspect it would destroy a lot of the snobbery about food and the underlying pontification so readily available from hippies and yippies who vote.

[SolidState]

Also, araneae,

Fertilizer is a huge issue with waterways due to the nitrate content. In Wisconsin, where I come from, farm runoff is so bad that it chokes out lake fish in the summer. There is very noticeable difference in ice-fished and summer-fished meats. One of my friends actually just started a company that makes sensors for farmers to use so that they know when to stop fertilizing fields, and the company has won national awards in its first year because the invention is so necessary.

It's not just animals that overfertilization harms, it's dams and waterways as well. The microbiology is way off and you end up with extremely anoxic water. It's bad.

[araneae]

Also, araneae,

Fertilizer is a huge issue with waterways due to the nitrate content. In Wisconsin, where I come from, farm runoff is so bad that it chokes out lake fish in the summer. There is very noticeable difference in ice-fished and summer-fished meats. One of my friends actually just started a company that makes sensors for farmers to use so that they know when to stop fertilizing fields, and the company has won national awards in its first year because the invention is so necessary.

It's not just animals that overfertilization harms, it's dams and waterways as well. The microbiology is way off and you end up with extremely anoxic water. It's bad.

I am very aware of that, I was more interested in whether the OP knew that or was just looking to sling accusations without backing them up with the information.

[SolidState]

I am very aware of that, I was more interested in whether the OP knew that or was just looking to sling accusations without backing them up with the information.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to disarm the trap on you. Oops

[The Deacon]

So, let's see.

I have the animal rights crowd telling me I should feel guilty for eating meat because of the way farm animals are treated, for eating fish because of the poor sea creatures that are sometimes the "collateral damage" of commercial fishing, and for hunting because they were traumatized by Bambi when they were kids.

I have the human rights crowd telling me I should feel guilty about eating most fruits and vegetables because of the way migrant workers are treated, for eating just about anything that's imported because of the way farm workers in other countries are treated, and for eating anything at all because someone, somewhere, is starving.

I have the eco-conscious crowd telling me I should use less energy, and the healthy foods crowd telling me I should eat brown rice which takes 40 minutes to cook, rather that white rice which takes 20.

Preparing a dish for a community function where everyone is asked to bring something has become as much fun as walking through a minefield because, in addition to the above, there are all the potential food allergies, religious proscriptions and the possibility of exacerbating somebody's high blood pressure or their kid's ADD to consider. Not to mention having to worry that whatever you choose may wind up on next week's product recall list. This week's features chunky chocolate chip cookie dough, a few weeks back it was some kind of tofu product.

If that wasn't enough, as a dog owner, I have one bunch of people telling me I should feel guilty for keeping Bear in captivity, and another group telling me I should feel guilty because he's better fed, better housed, drinks cleaner water, and gets better medical care than the average child in some countries.

Good thing for me that I have a thick skin and a really dark sense of humor.

[chuck_roxas45]

So, let's see.

I have the animal rights crowd telling me I should feel guilty for eating meat because of the way farm animals are treated, for eating fish because of the poor sea creatures that are sometimes the "collateral damage" of commercial fishing, and for hunting because they were traumatized by Bambi when they were kids.

I have the human rights crowd telling me I should feel guilty about eating most fruits and vegetables because of the way migrant workers are treated, for eating just about anything that's imported because of the way farm workers in other countries are treated, and for eating anything at all because someone, somewhere, is starving.

I have the eco-conscious crowd telling me I should use less energy, and the healthy foods crowd telling me I should eat brown rice which takes 40 minutes to cook, rather that white rice which takes 20.

Preparing a dish for a community function where everyone is asked to bring something has become as much fun as walking through a minefield because, in addition to the above, there are all the potential food allergies, religious proscriptions and the possibility of exacerbating somebody's high blood pressure or their kid's ADD to consider. Not to mention having to worry that whatever you choose may wind up on next week's product recall list. This week's features chunky chocolate chip cookie dough, a few weeks back it was some kind of tofu product.

If that wasn't enough, as a dog owner, I have one bunch of people telling me I should feel guilty for keeping Bear in captivity, and another group telling me I should feel guilty because he's better fed, better housed, drinks cleaner water, and gets better medical care than the average child in some countries.

Good thing for me that I have a thick skin and a really dark sense of humor.

I didn't know you had one Paul. :D

[vampyrewolf]

Good thing for me that I have a thick skin and a really dark sense of humor.

You've got a sense of humor? :eek:

I'm bored and have another 4hrs to kill tonight, may as well put in my 2 cents...

Not sure how many vegetarians this forum has. Personally I changed most of my meals over about 4 years ago when I had high blood pressure and had to lose weight. I still go out for a burger or steak about once a week, I have both fish and chicken in my freezer, and eggs in my fridge. You'll note I said most meals. I've got a fridge and counter full of fruit and veggies, and the only meat I purchased this last week was a salami for snacking on at work (only because it's better for me than a bag of chips) and a couple burgers on the way back out the door for cadets.

The choice for most of us comes down to exactly that. Choice.

When I do buy meat, it's from a local butcher and not the supermarket. I can get smaller packages, which means it's fresher in my fridge too. With the supersized northamerican diet, when's the last time you got a 1/2lbs of ground beef from the grocery store, or a package of 2 chicken breasts? I know what's in my food, even if I don't know exactly how it was raised... no organically / free range stickers at the butcher. I don't support animal cruelty, I save that for humans.

While some cultures and religions worldwide do dicate what thier members and followers eat. For most of us, religion and family ties do not dicate what culture or religion to belong to (or not belong to as the case may be). In fact, religion has been the cause of more strife throughout human history than any other cause.

[The Deacon]

With the supersized northamerican diet, when's the last time you got a 1/2lbs of ground beef from the grocery store, or a package of 2 chicken breasts?

About two weeks ago when I got a craving for a hamburger.

One supermarket here offers senior discounts on Wednesdays and puts out smaller packages of meat as well. Half pound of ground beef or ground turkey, two thin pork chops or one thick one, half a chicken, etc. and I'm sure the butcher there would accommodate any customer requesting small portions on other days. Otherwise, I'll buy a larger package if it's on sale, weigh out 8oz for a burger, then cook the rest up and freeze it for later use in dirty rice and other dishes. Chicken I mostly buy larger packages of either breast strips or boneless breasts which I cut into strips myself, season them, grill them, have a couple that night for dinner and freeze the rest for later use.

EDITED TO ADD: As for humor, I've been know to wear this shirt to stores frequented by PETAphiles. You'll either get a chuckle out of it, or not...

[CENTER][/CENTER]

[angusW]

That's an awesome shirt. Only thing it needs is spotted owl :D