Rather than answer the actual questions I posed you go off into a speculative fantasy land. No to all the above.The Deacon wrote:I suspect that, if we're celebrating at all, most Americans are celebrating the deed, not the man, so what he did before and after are of little import to us.
As for the rest, are you saying we should change the name of the holiday to something more touchy-feely and politically correct like "Discovery Day" or drop it altogether? If the latter, is because it offends your personal sensibilities that Columbus was a miserable bastard? Or is it, as some of your comments suggest, because you harbor anti-Catholic sentiments and dislike the idea that making the anniversary of his landing in the new world a holiday in the US was promoted by Catholics and that passing the law was most likely done to curry favor with Catholic voters?
Those who made this point might want to reread my post. I did not judge him by today's standards, although I don't think that is necessarily a bad approach; evil is evil whenever it occurs. Instead I pointed out that Columbus was imprisoned for widespread torture and murder. He was judged according to the moral/legal code of his own day. I then reminded the reader that, a decade into the Spanish Inquisition, the fact that Columbus' acts were seen as extreme and heinous speaks for itself.rosconey wrote:you cant put 1492 in todays perspective- just cant-
luckily man evolves his society for the better-
just think-it could all still be the same just with todays technology -thats scarey
Many of you know that I am Jewish and the history of Catholic Jewish relations has not always been a happy one. Never-the-less I have never had a negative attitude towards the RCC, critical on specific issues but never dismissive. Two of my sisters married Catholic men and my beloved nieces and nephews were brought up in the church. I have had endless and marvelous discussions about Western History with my two Catholic brothers-in-law who are hard core history buffs. The last time I regularly attended a church it was a Catholic church. I got a call from an old friend that they needed a drummer for their contemporary mass and during the months I played I also thoroughly enjoyed the sermons.Or is it, as some of your comments suggest, because you harbor anti-Catholic sentiments
Which question?Sequimite wrote:Rather than answer the actual questions I posed you go off into a speculative fantasy land. No to all the above.
On the other thread I was simply musing that it seemed an unlikely holiday, since Columbus never landed on North American soil and denied to the end of his life that he had done anything other than find a new route to India; as well as being a convicted mass murderer.
In this thread I am asking why people took such personal offense to my post on that thread.
Good point. Look at the last 50 years alone in the USA (and some others) in regards to human rights pertaining to gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. Likewise some countries currently have leaders and citizens performing cruelty at least on par.jzmtl wrote:You can't judge any historical figure with today's standard, too much has changed in our value, in his day pillage and murder in the name of king and country is perfectly honorable. If you do every one of them can be made out to be some sort of sociopath/psychopath. 200 years from now people will probably look at the wars US made in the past 10 years same way you look at Columbus today.
The syphilis claim is definitely false. Franklin died at 84 and had a number of health issues but did not exhibit the symptoms of syphilis. Adams spread many false rumors about Franklin supposedly being promiscuous in France when we was so ill with gout that he had trouble getting out of bed. Maybe Adams started that rumor too.Dr. Snubnose wrote:Ben Franklin, accused and imprisoned child molester who died of Syphilis
It's been a while since I've read about Columbus, but from what I remember this pretty much sums up what he did. It's not political, just a small part of our Earth's history that is not pretty as is much of it but is not talked about in "polite" company. Many people cannot handle the truth no matter the evidence presented in front of them.Sequimite wrote:Canadian Thanksgiving and US Columbus Day being on the same day I made a comment about my preference for the Canadian holiday over the US one, writing that Columbus was a mass murderer, robber and slaver. gull wing wrote that he was offended by my "political" post.
I'd like to know why so I'm breaking this into a separate thread. I'll just note that during the time that the Spanish Inquisition was torturing and murdering Jews by the thousand, the torture and murders that Columbus was engaged in on the island of Hispaniola was thought to be so extreme that Spain put him in prison.
Columbus insisted to the end of his life that he had reached India. The fact that native Americans are called Indians is about the only influence that Columbus had on history. He increased interest in exploring and colonizing the Americas, but so did hundreds of other explorers. He seems like an unlikely person to have a federal holiday for.
There are records from different physicians of Franklin's health. The British had a team of spies dedicated to finding out everything there was to know about him and those records still exist. Because Franklin was one of the most famous persons of his time there are many records of his activities and medical problems. He did not have syphilis. If you have evidence to the contrary tell us what it is.Dr. Snubnose wrote:I see you need to read more and I didn't know you were Ben's Physician....you need to chill man...not everyone here is trying to attack you....lighten up a bit...geesh.............Doc
Sequimite wrote:There are records from different physicians of Franklin's health. The British had a team of spies dedicated to finding out everything there was to know about him and those records still exist. Because Franklin was one of the most famous persons of his time there are many records of his activities and medical problems. He did not have syphilis. If you have evidence to the contrary tell us what it is.
Why is asking for the reasoning or evidence behind a conclusion seen as offensive?
So in your mind, my pointing out actual undisputed (other than the suggestion that Columbus' imprisonment might have had other motivations) historical facts about Columbus is political brainwashing while your unsupported slurs against Franklin, that he was imprisoned, a child molester and died of syphilis are reasoned debate? Certainly something as tangible as his imprisonment would have some shred of evidence to support it? But apparently asking for that evidence is condescending.Dr. Snubnose wrote:[/B]
Maybe it's the high and mighty condescending manner in which you ask... Maybe you didn't read all that I wrote and only have selective reading skills...Do you own research, Iv'e not the time for a thread that wreaks of attitude and well give me bad feelings to read cause you are having a slow night bored sitting around thinking how can I create some fever for political debate and politcal brainwashing. Of the sequimite variety...I've nothing more to say on this topic, but I woudn't be suprised if this thread is soon closed, mind you nothing I plan on doing......spyderco doesn't pay me to scoop the poop.....later...Doc
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