Columbus reconsiderd

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Sequimite
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Columbus reconsidered

Postby Sequimite » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:51 pm

Canadian Thanksgiving and US Columbus Day being on the same day I made a comment about my preference for the Canadian holiday over the US one, writing that Columbus was a mass murderer, robber and slaver. gull wing wrote that he was offended by my "political" post.

I'd like to know why so I'm breaking this into a separate thread. I'll just note that during the time that the Spanish Inquisition was torturing and murdering Jews by the thousand, the torture and murders that Columbus was engaged in on the island of Hispaniola was thought to be so extreme that Spain put him in prison.

Columbus insisted to the end of his life that he had reached India. The fact that native Americans are called Indians is about the only influence that Columbus had on history. He increased interest in exploring and colonizing the Americas, but so did hundreds of other explorers. He seems like an unlikely person to have a federal holiday for.
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Postby Pinetreebbs » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:03 pm

From the Forum FAQs:
• In an attempt to respect the extreme diversity of our members, we ask that you do not start or participate in any discussions relating to religion or politics.
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Postby Blerv » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:11 pm

Unless someone has a time machine history can't be fixed. Even if it was with our finite wisdom it would probably spur some other awful event.
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Postby Sequimite » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:15 pm

Pinetreebbs wrote:From the Forum FAQs: In an attempt to respect the extreme diversity of our members, we ask that you do not start or participate in any discussions relating to religion or politics.
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. How does a discussion about a man who died over half a millennium ago violate the rule against discussing religion and politics? We've had other discussions of history and even current economics without crossing that line.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897

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Postby Pinetreebbs » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:26 pm

I respect that this is an important issue for you, but October 8 is a holiday established in Federal law (5 U.S.C. 6103). Changing this holiday requires Congressional or possibly an Executive order, yes, it's political. This Forum belongs to Spyderco and we should respect their wishes.

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Postby Sequimite » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:31 pm

Pinetreebbs wrote:I respect that this is an important issue for you, but October 8 is a holiday established in Federal law (5 U.S.C. 6103). Changing this holiday requires Congressional or possibly an Executive order, yes, it's political. This Forum belongs to Spyderco and we should respect their wishes.

I like knives.
I like knives. I also like "OFF-TOPIC". For the third time, how is this a violation of forum rules?

And if you check you'll see that discussing things which we can't directly change is what the vast majority of threads here do. So, what's the problem?
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897

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Postby thog94 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:43 pm

I wonder what Spyderco Columbus would EDC...any thoughts on that one?

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Postby Blerv » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:49 pm

In general even if not "political" it's extremely heavy. Murder, robbery, slavery, torture, etc.

For the sake of sensitive members it's probably best to just move on to more PG topics. There are countless other topics we can disagree and get all pissed-off about.

Hard use knives
Tactical flicking
Blade steel snobbery
Why flat grinds suck
Why jimping is stupid

That stuff. :)
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Postby Pinetreebbs » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:52 pm

Sequimite wrote:... So, what's the problem?
I can't answer that, you need to ask that fellow you see in the bathroom mirror.
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Postby Sequimite » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:23 pm

Pinetreebbs wrote:I can't answer that, you need to ask that fellow you see in the bathroom mirror.
Ha, I can't believe that in a forum that regularly delights in the the details of how to maim and kill with knives and guns history is too harsh a subject for your dainty sensibilities.

I've seen the light. I am so ashamed of the tens of thousands of hours I've spent studying history now that I see the subject is not fit for polite company.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897

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Postby SolidState » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:26 pm

grumble grumble
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Postby Stuart Ackerman » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:41 pm

History is written by the winners...

Good ole' Chris thought he was doing the right thing...
Some history books say otherwise...

Sequimite, as someone said, you have good intentions, but it is liable to cause a flaming war, as that ain't good for Sal's Lounge...

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Postby Sequimite » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:03 pm

In all seriousness I wanted to know why people were personally offended that a discussion might take place about events 500 years removed. Those who were offended have refused to say why.

solidstate, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Thanks for your contribution. What you call over simplifying I call a concise beginning point for a discussion. I mentioned the specific charges that caused Columbus to be thrown in prison because it seemed likely to me that some thought I was referring to something else when I called him a mass murderer. So if you or zackerty know why this is such a sensitive topic that it could cause a flame war please explain it to me.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897

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True History? Will we ever know?

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:15 pm

Most valid historians agree that Amerigo Vespucci and Leif Erikson both discovered what we know as the North American continent years before Christopher Columbus ever arrived. I had a History professor at a College I attended in the 90s tell me that the continent was actually named after Amerigo Vespucci and I've had 2 other teachers tell me that over the years.

The one brother may indeed have a valid point about Columbus being a meglamaniac..>> actually there are a lot of people that we revere in history but when you pull back the curtain you discover that their lives were anything but decent and good hearted. There are so many examples of that it would truly derail the thread to even name one of them >> however I could name at least a dozen :(

I am an American patriot and I love my country but the history of some of the leaders, presidents and statesmen is truly abysmal even when talking about some of the most revered and respected men who put our country together.

There are many great men and women however that did do a lot to form this great nation and many of them in my opinion deserve the accolades that Mr. Columbus doesn't deserve in my opinion.

But I am very grateful that we can talk freely about issues such as this here in America without fear that some death squad will be looking for us. And I'll just celebrate the fact that we are in a great nation compared to most nations on the planet regardless of who really deserves the credit>> because I believe a lot of true history is buried and hidden for many reasons.
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Postby Sithus1966 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:25 pm

I don't know many that celebrate it. To me it just means the post office people get a day off and I don't get any mail, or knives.
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Postby Stuart Ackerman » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Sequimite

My opinions are just that, opinions...
This is the internet...a little removed from reality...
If you and I were sitting in a quiet place, a single malt or good beer at our lips, we could debate anything under the sun...who knows, maybe some day?

The fact that folk objected to your opinion in the other thread, meant that the same opinions would fly around here in this thread, and the fire would be fed...

I too do not have positive opinions about Columbus, but you and I might still not agree about his intentions, good or bad...he did what he did, and we all live with it in the here and now...even though I am in NZ, in another galaxy...

Like JD said...the true history might be hid for many reasons...

Look at the holiday like this...it IS a day off work, and that means you can chat here in Spyderco Forums to your hearts content...call the day Spyderco Day...all in favour, say "AYE!!!" :)

I, however, am at work... :(

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Postby thog94 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:36 pm

Sithus1966 wrote:I don't know many that celebrate it. To me it just means the post office people get a day off and I don't get any mail, or knives.
I'm enjoying the day off, but would of liked my knife to be delivered today instead of tomorrow. Give and take I guess...

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Postby cubsfan1969 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:27 pm

As a younger cubsfan1969, I was fortunate enough to visit San Salvador on a number of occasions as a dive master working a live aboard dive boat called nekton pilot, a SWATH boat (google). Completely protected from fishing and other human destruction, be it long line, dynamite, or a Zebco, the waters surrounding the island are/were the most beautiful and healthy I ever was able to dive, I had a little over 2000 dives in a good chunk of this planet, and nothing compared. One of the scariest most adrenaline pumping moments was when you arrived at the mooring at night (guests sleeping), you were given a 20lb U bolt shackle that needed to be locked on to the mooring, about 75-100 yards ahead of the bow. You had to jump in at the stern, swim the length of the 110' vessel, then continue to the mooring to secure it. Mind you the waters were pretty abundant with Caribbean reef sharks, we did a shark feed last day of trip, so when they would hear the nekton or any boat for that matter coming in they would get very active, and as you swam to the mooring you could see them below you in the dark, expecting a fishsicle, a huge frozen block of fish that the staff and guests would catch during the trip (in the proper areas) that was tied off at the bottom for the feed. Also the cube jellies come up at night, you really didn't want to hit one. Best **** job I ever had, but I'm glad I'm in healthcare now!

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Postby The Deacon » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:03 am

Sequimite wrote:Canadian Thanksgiving and US Columbus Day being on the same day I made a comment about my preference for the Canadian holiday over the US one, writing that Columbus was a mass murderer, robber and slaver. gull wing wrote that he was offended by my "political" post.

I'd like to know why so I'm breaking this into a separate thread. I'll just note that during the time that the Spanish Inquisition was torturing and murdering Jews by the thousand, the torture and murders that Columbus was engaged in on the island of Hispaniola was thought to be so extreme that Spain put him in prison.

Columbus insisted to the end of his life that he had reached India. The fact that native Americans are called Indians is about the only influence that Columbus had on history. He increased interest in exploring and colonizing the Americas, but so did hundreds of other explorers. He seems like an unlikely person to have a federal holiday for.
I suspect that, if we're celebrating at all, most Americans are celebrating the deed, not the man, so what he did before and after are of little import to us.

As for the rest, are you saying we should change the name of the holiday to something more touchy-feely and politically correct like "Discovery Day" or drop it altogether? If the latter, is because it offends your personal sensibilities that Columbus was a miserable bastard? Or is it, as some of your comments suggest, because you harbor anti-Catholic sentiments and dislike the idea that making the anniversary of his landing in the new world a holiday in the US was promoted by Catholics and that passing the law was most likely done to curry favor with Catholic voters?
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Postby bh49 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:41 am

The Deacon wrote:I suspect that, if we're celebrating at all, most Americans are celebrating the deed, not the man, so what he did before and after are of little import to us.
+1
Also I am not sure that it is correct to judge 500 yeas old event using today's moral point of view. Actions of many great people of the past killed masses of people. Should July, August and October be renamed as well?
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