A big DIS to german customs!!

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toomzz
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A big DIS to german customs!!

Postby toomzz » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:46 am

Any advice of fellow german formites is welcome and highly appreciated.

Sorry guys, I need to let off some steam:

In january I bought myself the Massad Ayoob in the US. All settled, parcel shipped, track and trace send.
In the mean while I followed its route on the website of DHL.de (german post-service). The last action I read is of january the 21st 'parcel being processed'. I waited and waited and finally send DHL the question: Where is my parcel? Last Saturday I received a letter that the parcel had been returned to the sender.

Excuse me? Without noticing me? Hey, who paid for this? Hey, what about consumers-rights?

I gave DHL a call and the reason was that the knife 'was not allowed to enter Germany'.

Excuse me? Tell me the legal reason for this. Who says so?
Massad Ayoob forbidden in Germany, give me the legal reason and I say yes. If not..... :mad:

Now DHL will send me the 'Bescheid' (clarification) why customs sent the knife back. They are not done with me, I can tell you!

Again a BIG DISRESPECT to German customs.

T.
Tom

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bh49
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Postby bh49 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:53 am

Tom,
Really sorry to hear this.
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Postby Azwaiian » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:06 am

That is just awful! Why any country would forbid or outlaw certain types of knives is beyond me. I would think that a grown person, who obeys the law, is never in trouble, should and could be trusted, to own and carry a knife.

I hope a mistake was made and you will eventually receive the Masad Ayoob knife.

Good luck to you.

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ChrisR
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Postby ChrisR » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:13 am

That's really bad ... they should at least have given you the right to appeal while it was held in German Customs. However, over here they will destroy knives that they call illegal and never return them to the sender :( You can appeal but you have to pay for their legal costs if they rule against you.
My spydies: Squeak, Tenacious, Terzuola, D'Allara, UKPK CF peel-ply pre-production, UKPK CF smooth pre-production, UKPK G10 orange leaf-blade, UKPK FRN grey drop-point, UKPK FRN maroon leaf-blade, Bug ... all PE blades :)

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toomzz
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Postby toomzz » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:31 am

ChrisR wrote: You can appeal but you have to pay for their legal costs if they rule against you.
Not if I am legally right and can proove it by law. That is an universal right in most countries of the first world.
Tom

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Postby tonydahose » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:33 am

that sux..hopefully you will eventually get the knife in your hands.
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Postby Sithus1966 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:34 am

Well at least they sent it back rather than confiscated it right? That way you can at least get your money back? I think I would rather be without the knife and have my money back than out both IMO.
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Postby ChrisR » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:38 am

toomzz wrote:Not if I am legally right and can proove it by law. That is an universal right in most countries of the first world.
I agree ... but here I don't know of anyone that has risked a potential bill for £3000 to get back their £100 knife. What annoys me is that the Customs guys know that too and they know that if they just stonewall and refuse to give an item back the importer will eventually give up and they can add it to their "weapon" seizure statistics. They are just using the fact that they are backed by the State to bully importers who might very well be in the right. I know of at least 1 UKPK that was seized and destroyed in a clear breach of the law ... but there is no guarantee that a judge/magistrate will agree with you and when you look at the costs of loosing it isn't surprising that everyone gives up :( It ain't right and I fight it ... but it's David vs Goliath, with Goliath holding all the cards.
My spydies: Squeak, Tenacious, Terzuola, D'Allara, UKPK CF peel-ply pre-production, UKPK CF smooth pre-production, UKPK G10 orange leaf-blade, UKPK FRN grey drop-point, UKPK FRN maroon leaf-blade, Bug ... all PE blades :)

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Postby INFRNL » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:33 am

That really sucks. I guess its hard to be a knife collector over there. I honestly do not know what the big deal is, but its their laws/reasoning. Any knife can be dangerous, but I am sure most use them the way they were intended.

I hope you get somewhere on the issue.
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Postby Cheddarnut » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:47 am

People need to start using other cutlery as weapons, lets see if we can get spoons banned too. Maybe cheese graters.
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Postby araneae » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:55 am

Very sad.
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Postby DeathBySnooSnoo » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:15 am

that is very frustrating. Sorry to hear that. It really is pure stupidity on the part of the governments to not allow knives for general use, regardless of the type or style of knife.
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Postby MachSchnell » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:12 pm

Sorry to hear that, and I just hope the same fate won't happen to United States commerce in the future.

They won't let a locking, single hand opening folder into the country? But I bet you can probably buy any cheap box cutter, folder slip joint, and so on at any local hardware store etc... Honestly, when it comes down to it, a knife is a knife is a knife, and any edged or slightly pointy object/tool has the possibility to become a weapon. I honestly don't understand non-locking blade laws/regulations either.

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Postby Waffle » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:44 pm

Wow.. sounds pretty bogus to me. Was it purchased private party or through ebay or an online merchant? Who was the sender and why did they use DHL? I typically mark things as cutting or hand tools when sending out of country. I sent a knife to Germany not too long ago without any trouble. Seems to me it may be more an issue with DHL. I've never heard good things about DHL. I honestly never even consider sending ANYTHING through DHL. I'd rather pay a little more for a different service. I send through the United States Postal Service out of country more often than not, and again, no issues.

Good luck with the appeal. Seems it's going to be 50/50 considering the fact that they already refused to deliver your knife.
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Postby skatenut » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:26 pm

Sorry to hear that toomzz, FWIW.

That sux in a major way and has never happened to me yet, fortunately, even when having Spyderhawks pass through customs.
I did buy a Civilian from a German dealer, some time ago. It obviously passed through customs, too.

Can you prove that this particular model (Ayoob) is available from German dealers? If you can, that should settle it.

IIRC, I got my Ayoob from Knife Center safely through customs.

Here's a link to Böker, Germany, offering an Ayoob:

http://www.boker.de/taschenmesser/spyderco/01SP725.html

Hope I'm allowed to post the link in this case.

"Not allowed to enter Germany"???
BS, says who? DHL doesn't determine that, imho.

Don't give up and give them hell.

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Postby w3tnz » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:33 pm

Its your responsibility to know the laws and abide by them, customs merely enforce them you will need to do your own reaserch of the law but it is a bit rude they sent it back without notifying you. Here in nz if customs intercept a prohibited item you are sent a very detailed letter outlining the situation, and you are also given the right to appeal within a given time frame, usualy involves getting a permit to import said item from the police arms officer (all of which is supposed to be done before hand). If you are unsucsessful the item is destroyed and legal action can be taken against you.

If you find the knife is legal in your country then you can take it up with customs, but its not likely they got it wrong, my money is on the length of the blade is over the maximum allowed. Good luck to you.

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toomzz
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Postby toomzz » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:24 am

skatenut wrote:Here's a link to Böker, Germany, offering an Ayoob:

http://www.boker.de/taschenmesser/spyderco/01SP725.html

Hope I'm allowed to post the link in this case.

"Not allowed to enter Germany"???
BS, says who? DHL doesn't determine that, imho.

Don't give up and give them hell.
Thanks Skatenut, that was EXACTLY what I was looking for :-)))
Indeed, whose the one to decide. IMHO 'the official with the proper knowledge of the law'. I will give them hell.

For now, I am waiting for the official letter with reason of refusing my Ayoob (I don't know the english word for that: Bescheid/beschikking)
After that I will be their personal PITA by sending in a reply with copies of the Boker-site and my purchase-papers.

If neccessary. After my phonecall last tuesday a new action appeared in my track and trace account: 'your parcel is being transported in its destination country'. I have faint hope that it will finally appear. For now I will stick to the last message 'knife not allowed in Germany'. If not I will follow the explained steps..... Keep you posted.

T.
Tom

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ChrisR
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Postby ChrisR » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:35 am

Be prepared to counter their next argument. Finding a seller in Germany who has this knife in their catalogue doesn't automatically prove that it is legal. For instance the Customs guys might just turn around and say "Well, it is illegal - whether Boker get prosecuted isn't in our jurisdiction - that's down to the police!". The argument is like being stopped by the police for speeding and then trying to get off by saying "Hey, it must be legal because I saw a bunch of other people driving at the same speed and you didn't stop them." ;) They might also say that just because a seller had a knife in their online catalogue doesn't mean that they have actually imported it yet.

Anyway, I wish you well and I really hope you get your knife because we have been having similar problems here in the UK with importing smooth-opening knives and it just really makes me angry to see dumb laws being used badly. If it were me I would first ask them to tell me *exactly* which law it breaks ... then prove that it doesn't and that it must be legal.
My spydies: Squeak, Tenacious, Terzuola, D'Allara, UKPK CF peel-ply pre-production, UKPK CF smooth pre-production, UKPK G10 orange leaf-blade, UKPK FRN grey drop-point, UKPK FRN maroon leaf-blade, Bug ... all PE blades :)

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skatenut
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Postby skatenut » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:50 pm

toomzz wrote:
Thanks Skatenut, that was EXACTLY what I was looking for :-)))
Indeed, whose the one to decide. IMHO 'the official with the proper knowledge of the law'. I will give them hell.

For now, I am waiting for the official letter with reason of refusing my Ayoob (I don't know the english word for that: Bescheid/beschikking)
After that I will be their personal PITA by sending in a reply with copies of the Boker-site and my purchase-papers.
The word for Bescheid is decision, verdict, finding, ruling.

I sincerely hope it turns out all right for you.

The fact that Böker Germany imports the Ayoob into Germany and sells it here, apparently legally, should certainly be in your favour.

Let us know how it plays out, please, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

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toomzz
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Postby toomzz » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:32 am

Well, there is light at the horizon.

Last friday I received another We-are-so-sorry-letter from DHL. Now they told me that there wasn't a proper invoice in or on the parcel so they couldn't determine the taxes to be paid. Not a word about 'not allowed'. As a result they left it in storage for 10 days and then send it back to States. The question that raised immediately was 'Hey, inform and involve me, it's my stuff' so I gave them a call.
The DHL-dude I spoke explained me what, why and how and promised me arrange that DHL pays me for the new-shippingcosts. He admitted that the course action the took wasn't just to me. The will send me a new decision (thank you Skatenut). I hope this settles the case.

I informed my seller in the US to add a complete invoice with all relevant information. Again I am a law-abiding citizen and I expect that from the officials even more. Integrity IS a good thing, not only if I ask for it.
Keep you posted.
Tom


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