jeep45238 wrote:Not relevant given the weight of the projectile. Consider that 9mm ball penetrates a sandbag deeper than 55 or 62 grain 5.56 ball.
Come on!! My neighbors don't have sand bags, what they have is vinyl siding, compressed saw-dust and sheet rock. .223 doesn't penetrate that better than 9mm ball? I just don't believe it. Plus, assuming wrdwright is worried about misses anyway--
9mm 115 gr FMJ at 100 yds: 970 fps 240 ft/lbs of energy (4 in barell)
.223 55 gr at 100 yds: 2800 fps 950 ft/lbs
500 yds: 1270 fps 200 ft/lbs
looks like at 5x the distance, .223 is about as dangerous as 9mm ball, this simply must increase risk to unintended persons and property.
As it happens, I've played with an AR-15 variant or two in my time :p . I know it's been said... but a custom build is your best bet. If price were not an issue for me, I'd get Les Baer to build me an AR. I wouldn't suggest a home build unless you know someone who already knows their stuff or you are willing to pick up some literature and a few tools... in which case that would come in a rather distant second. If you want an off the shelf model that won't break the bank, my personal experience is as follows.
Avoid Olympic Arms, I've never seen one feed 10 consecutive rounds without a stoppage (overstatement... but only just :p ). Their sister companies (DPMS and Bushmaster) are better, but considering that a 25% price jump gets you to a whole new level of quality I'm not sure the savings is really worth it unless you are looking to do some aftermarket customization. I recently played with the new-ish Ruger AR platform and was very impressed, ditto for the S&W and the Sig. I liked the last one so much I sold my frankenstein-esque home build and picked one up, in fact.
For a newbie to the model... I'd suggest you go with a 16-20 inch barrel (14.5s are for mall ninjas and range commandos, IMHO :p ), nice solid single stage trigger, gas impingement system (I'm the last person in the military not convinced that gas piston systems are worth the trouble, you see), and an A2 style stock (unless your friend has really short or really long arms... then you might look into something adjustable). Get on brownells or midway and pick up a few different weights of buffer spring so you can find one you like for the ammo you use (or find the heaviest one that still feeds the cheapest garbage on the market... if you don't have a favorite). Stick with a 1 in 7 spin (most barrels are set up that way anyway... and it'll stabilize pretty much any bullet weight commonly sold). I am a huge fan of the M68 that the Army lets me use (the Aimpoint CompM4 in civilian-speak), but it is pretty pricey... whereas the compM2 is solid but sometimes as low as half the price depending on where you shop. I'd go with something like that if you want a red dot (personal preference of mine, is all). If you are more old school than me... pick up some iron sights. I don't have a lot of insights there, presumably others have more experience. If you want some magnification (for use when the gun is not being used as a home defense weapon), I like the Leupold Rifleman.
Anyhow, that's all I've got :) . The AR is a real fun gun to shoot, and a really effective weapon when it needs to be.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
- Theodore Roosevelt
"I twisted the knife until I heard his heart-strings sing."
2cha wrote:Come on!! My neighbors don't have sand bags, what they have is vinyl siding, compressed saw-dust and sheet rock. .223 doesn't penetrate that better than 9mm ball? I just don't believe it. Plus, assuming wrdwright is worried about misses anyway--
9mm 115 gr FMJ at 100 yds: 970 fps 240 ft/lbs of energy (4 in barell)
.223 55 gr at 100 yds: 2800 fps 950 ft/lbs
500 yds: 1270 fps 200 ft/lbs
looks like at 5x the distance, .223 is about as dangerous as 9mm ball, this simply must increase risk to unintended persons and property.
Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but physics doesn't care if you believe it or not. Believe it or not, I've been through crime scenes with 50 bullet holes, calibers varied from .357 Mag / 20 Gauge to .44 Mag JHP's and 9mm- bullets do some weird things you wouldn't expect in real life.
The 5.56 does not have the momentum to carry itself through barriers like what you're making it out to be. Not to mention that carbines are much easier to be accurate with and lay down volumes of fire and close distances than handguns.
Look at the ballistic gel tests of standard handgun JHP's, and then do the same for 5.56. I'll save you the time.
The faster, and lighter, something is, the faster it sheds it's speed and kinetic energy. Basic physics.
But, of course, ballistics are not the whole of it. Home defense implies tightish quarters. Long guns, unless sawed off (not always legal) can be difficult to bring on target in such spaces. Given its shorter arc, a handgun can be brought to a close-in target, say an intruder in a room of my house, way faster than a long gun.
If I can't dissuade an intruder with .40 S&W 180 grain hollow-points in the time it takes to empty a 14-round magazine, I've probably been dead for several seconds. A long gun's ability to "lay down volumes of fire and close distances" would not have improved my chances. I was already close and had ample volume...
Whatever errant rounds I might shoot at an intruder may well leave the walls of my house, but they will rapidly shed their deadly force, having left the walls unexpanded but at relatively low velocity.
-Marc (pocketing an S30V Military2 today)
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
jeep45238 wrote:Buddy, I hate to break it to you, but physics doesn't care if you believe it or not.
The 5.56 does not have the momentum to carry itself through barriers like what you're making it out to be.
Thanks for making my point for me. According to the info. you provided, 55 gr. JHP .223 penetrates about as far into ballistics gel AFTER going through wallboard as 124gr JHP 9mm does WITHOUT any barrier. Therefore, by any standard, be it logic or physics, other people and property are more at risk if .223 is used for SD. If your closest neighbors as so far away you can't hear their dog barking, there's less worry. At least in my opinion, I have the obligation to minimize risk to others even when defending my own life.
2cha wrote:Thanks for making my point for me. According to the info. you provided, 55 gr. JHP .223 penetrates about as far into ballistics gel AFTER going through wallboard as 124gr JHP 9mm does WITHOUT any barrier. Therefore, by any standard, be it logic or physics, other people and property are more at risk if .223 is used for SD. If your closest neighbors as so far away you can't hear their dog barking, there's less worry. At least in my opinion, I have the obligation to minimize risk to others even when defending my own life.
It's a non-issue for my friend he lives on a ranch with more acres than you care to think about....If I am defending my life and limb in the house I'm not going to use an AR-15 or a 9mm pistol for that matter....The AR-15 will probably stop my assailant, and I don't trust the 9mm to stop even a dog....and if the 9mm passed through my walls and then the house next door walls and hits someone...it would probably bounce off their bodies without penetration...that's if it makes it that far to begin with....That's why I use hand grenades and flame throwers in my house for SD, keeps everything contained to a certain area....Doc :p
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Dr. Snubnose wrote:It's a non-issue for my friend he lives on a ranch with more acres than you care to think about....If I am defending my life and limb in the house I'm not going to use an AR-15 or a 9mm pistol for that matter....The AR-15 will probably stop my assailant, and I don't trust the 9mm to stop even a dog....and if the 9mm passed through my walls and then the house next door walls and hits someone...it would probably bounce off their bodies without penetration...that's if it makes it that far to begin with....That's why I use hand grenades and flame throwers in my house for SD, keeps everything contained to a certain area....Doc :p
Doc, that reminds me of a Mike Royko column from the seventies. He was ranting that the laws against machine guns were blatant discrimination against those with poor aim. He went on to recommend land mine and hand grenades for home defense.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
