Dr. Snubnose wrote:Police: Lighter blocks bullet in Hempstead shooting
Channel 12 News, Long Island NY
Police: Lighter blocks bullet in Hempstead shooting
(11/01/11) HEMPSTEAD - Police say a young man was shot in Hempstead last night during a robbery attempt, but the lighter in his pocket blocked the bullet from reaching its target.
According to investigators, a 22-year-old busboy was on his way home at 9:20 p.m. when three men held him up at Morrell Avenue and Morton Street.
The suspects demanded money from the victim, and when he backed away, one of them shot the 22-year-old in the leg at close range. However, the victim got away with only a slight bruise because a lighter in his pocket blocked the bullet, police say.
After the 22-year-old escaped and called 911, he reached into his pocket and pulled out not only his broken BIC lighter, but also a 9mm bullet.
Police say the gunmen didn't steal any of the victim's money or valuables.
Doc :D
Doc,
There's something wrong with that story. How does a plastic container of flammable gas stop a bullet? Perhaps we should find out what gun the assailant had and avoid it.
I've been doing a lot of web research based on the suggestions in this thread. Good stuff.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
JLS wrote:I don't want to come off as a "pro-P7" attack dog, but I do tire of hearing the same anecdotal, usually baseless, stories that get circulated about it. I always hear the same stories over and over, but they never seem to have a real origin.
+1...and it's always hearsay BS.
I've had the pleasure of handling several P7s (P7/P7M8/P7M10/P7M13) on the range a number of times when I was considering the purchase. I had no problems transitioning from my SigSauer P22X and Beretta 92F to the P7 on the range. I held off on the purchase because at the time I couldn't get over the look. But years later I came to appreciate its foward thinking engineering and wonderful aesthetics, and I kick myself for passing on the beautiful selections I had available to me twenty some years ago.
Well, no crying over missed opportunities. A P7 will be in my future :)
Ayoob's article states basic information covering ANY weapons systems and I TOTALLY AGREE: "Know thy Arms". It's one of the first things they train us at the academy..."Manual of Arms". Also, every and any weapon system can fail if it is not properly maintained or subjected to conditions for which it is not designed. Also, Ayoob's assertions is not heresay as weapons failures in situations he describes are well documented and authenticated.
I'm merely agreeing with JLS and referring to heresay specifically about the FTF rate of the HK P7. Personally, after running 700 rounds of various makes through the HK P7 I've found the FTF rate no greater than any Sig, Beretta, or Glock I've tried.
P.S. I do see I read into JLS' comment a bit and went off on FTF rates which a lot of the heresay I encountered refers to. I do agree the P7 operates differently. But failures resulting from not being familiar with your weapon isn't the problem of the weapon if it is well designed like the P7.
I've never fired a P7. Frankly, I don't think I've ever even seen one in real life. And yet, I know it was a pretty decent pistol. My reasoning? They manufactured it for like 3 decades. I am gonna go out on a limb and assume H&K is a for-profit institution, and that such an organization would not do such a thing to a failure prone and difficult to use firearm :p . That said, it certainly has an unusual method of operation, I could see getting hung up on that in a high stress situation. After all, IMHO the most telling story in Mr. Ayoob's article was the one about the police officer that jammed up his own glock when he reverted to his revolver-based training. If you spend a long time training with one type of weapon, you can't reasonably expect yourself to develop a new set of reflexes overnight.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
- Theodore Roosevelt
"I twisted the knife until I heard his heart-strings sing."
So, Doc, lots of pockets containing lots of hard goods would give one a better chance against random gunfire? at least not to the head? I assume a .30-06 would be different, but would this stop most handgun calibers?
Don't shoot the messenger....I have nothing against H&K's P7 or any other variant they make, I was just answering the question of why they are not as popular as other semi-autos. It has been in my experience, training people and Law Enforcement Officers in the use of various firearms, that I can safely say...When SHTF, you will automatically do, how you were trained to do. When SHTF you will fall back on your training. That's is why I am often hauled in court after a shooting to describe to those involved how that officer was trained, and then the lawyers can pick it all apart and see if they did the right thing or not, and make judgments from there. While it might be easy to transition without a hitch from a P7 to a Sig, then move onto a Glock and Colt, when shooting at paper targets, it's another story when the targets are shooting back at you...And unless you can tell me that you have experienced that first hand like I have...I can't and won't put much stock in what you say. Sorry my life might depend on it! I'll tell you this as an example..If you carry say a S&W Revolver, the cylinder rotates in a certain direction, if every other day you carry say a Colt Detective Special, guess what the cylinder rotates in the opposite direction of the Smiths..Lets say for example you are right in the middle of one of those SHTF situations and you shoot you firearm dry and you wish to do a tactical reload from behind cover but only have a limited time to do, or maybe you can't reach your speedloader for a full reload, so now you might have to only insert one or two bullets into the cylinder. Owning and carrying these two guns regularly you now have to (under stress) stop and think, should I put that one bullet in the 1 o'clock position or should I put it at 11 o'clock...If you make a mistake, that mistake could be fatal...I use this as an example (1) to get everyone off the case that the P7 is not be trusted, 2) Unfamiliarity with the operations of your firearm can be fatal and 3) Switching between firearms which operate differently from one another can be a detriment)
So I have no problems with a P7...you like it train with it, get good with it, feel confident that you will be able to deal with whatever occurs during a lethal confrontation. But I will say this, if I loved the P7 so much...it would be the only gun that I would trust myself to EDC. The last thing I want to do when SHTF is to start figuring out how come the firearm I carried yesterday is not working the same way as the one I am carrying today...That's all I'm saying....Doc :)
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
To answer the other question brought up by a few...I think there is definitely more to the Bic lighter stops the 9mm round story, that the police are not saying...The round may have very well been defective from the start. It would be my only explanation. That being said I have read to many reports, witnessed accounts and know of too many incidents where the 9mm round regardless of the firearm use, failed to stopped a violent attacker. Sometimes individuals have soaked up 10 to 14 of these 9mm rounds and were able to continued their assault. That is not to say that this doesn't happen with other calibers, because there is more to a shooting then just the caliber used. There can be the mind set of the attacker to account for. The threshold of pain for the attacker who might be high on drugs is different from that of a sober person. Bullet placement is another issue to considered, where did the bullet hit and how much damage did it create and we can go on and on. Bottom line is this...Handguns in any Caliber are poor man-stoppers. The reason they are involved in so many shootings is they are easy to carry and conceal. If I knew I was going to be in a gun fight...the last thing I would want is a Handgun....most times people don't have the luxury to choose their weapons before the fight...you use what you got....and hope for the best...Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
Jordan wrote:A guy in my unit swears up and down that his iPod stopped an AK round from 50 or so meters. So... maybe? :)
I would like to call that guys bluff, as I have seen 7.62 rounds zip through steel plate, and multiple cinderblock walls. . having destroyed one with a hammer, I can tell you there is nothing inside that should slow any rifle bullet down. An Ak is my chosen wrecking ball when I want to utterly destroy something. If an Ipod stopped a round, that round had to be severely under charged.
For me I shoot competitively in IPSC so I can only speak from that point of view. I find it very well balanced and very accurate. However, should there be a zombie invasion I'd probably reach for the G17 due to it's many other differing properties to the CZ (polymer, will shoot just about any ammo and probably even rocks, lighter, easier to strip etc)
This one here is shown with the CZ 75 Kadet which is a 22LR pistol. It shares the same holster etc so is great for cheap training.
Maybe, maybe not. Not hearsay if you believe what Massad Ayoob writes in this article.
Plus, nobody said not to get one, just pointing out potential issues,...
That's a great article by Massad Ayoob. Everyone should read it. Not as an indictment against any one particular weapon, but as a reminder of what can happen, even to the most seasoned pro.
Practice, practice, practice. If anyone ever questions you about why you carry a gun or knife tell them to stick it. Stick a gun in THEIR POCKET I mean.
DCDesigns wrote:I would like to call that guys bluff, as I have seen 7.62 rounds zip through steel plate, and multiple cinderblock walls. . having destroyed one with a hammer, I can tell you there is nothing inside that should slow any rifle bullet down. An Ak is my chosen wrecking ball when I want to utterly destroy something. If an Ipod stopped a round, that round had to be severely under charged.
Well, I suppose you can put that down to experiences differing. I would say that the 7.62x39 round is inherently under charged. I've seen drywall stop the things. They don't even scratch off the CARC paint on our vehicles most of the time :p . It is certainly the weakest .30 cal rifle round of which I am aware. If you want a wrecking ball... go with the M1A. 7.62x51 at least has some umph behind it. Or, if you insist on sticking with the russian stuff... get an SVT-40, nobody calls 7.62 Dragunov underpowered :) . Or, of course... one could subscribe to the "go big or go home theory" applied to .30 cal rounds and jump straight to the big fellas. 30-06 and .300 Win mag. Course, it's getting harder and harder to find semi auto battle rifles chambered in the last two (unless you can get your hands on a Garand), but it's a softer world than it used to be... what are you gonna do. :p .
Honestly, I kinda want to call the guys bluff too though... so I know what you mean. There are rank related issues preventing me from doing so, sadly :p .
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
- Theodore Roosevelt
"I twisted the knife until I heard his heart-strings sing."
This link by Rob Pincus, one of the most highly regarded firearms and tactical instructors in the world, gives some well written reasons as to why I have preferred the 9mm to other calibers in the "service pistol" power range for self defense for several years now.
Personally - I've found that grip tape on the front strap is the most critical, followed by the backstrap. I will take the most aggressive 360* texture on the grip that I can get on a pistol though.
Grip tape is cheap and easy to replace and it is wonderful when new for shooting. If you carry with one - make sure you use an undershirt. It'll wear your side raw otherwise.
2cha wrote:Beautiful!! I got my shipping notice from CZ custom shop yesterday. Which grips do you prefer, the aluminum checkered or aluminum grip tape?
Got my shipping notice from CZ custom shop yesterday!
Hey mate,
I prefer the aluminium checkered and I have just received an even more aggressive checkered one from CZ-USA/ CZ-Custom. When it's hot, humid and sweaty the confidence of the grip biting into your palms is very reassuring. Front strap grip tape as jeep45238 says is important. I took my backstrap grip tape off as it was interfering a bit, but the front ones I have left on. The grip tapes on the front and back straps tend to melt and move a bit when it's a really hot day so be aware of that.
Let me begin with the fact I don't have any guns, thanks to German restrictions. My knowledge of handguns is therefore very limited and purely theoretical.
However, I do remember there were several accidental discharges of P7 police handguns held by police officers with fatal results to the person in front of the handgun, many years ago. I distinctly remember reading this in several German newspapers, at the time.
So per the suggestion for me to go out and start renting various pistols, I have an update. This morning I went to the range and got to shoot the following 9mm's:
Beretta PX4
S&W M&P
HK P30L
The HK was probably my favorite of the 3, but it is out of my price range. It was my first time firing a SA/DA, and I really enjoyed it. I also enjoyed the Beretta as well. It's action was very smooth. However, I really didn't like the M&P. I didn't care for the way it shot nor the feel of the handle in my hand. It was just a little wide for my taste.
Again, just an update. The Nation's Gun Show is coming to Dulles Expo Center in a couple weeks (I live in Northern VA outside DC), so I'm trying to figure out what I'm looking for by then.
