"Bad Dogs" or "Bad Owners"

[angusW]

As a boy I had a paper route and found the smaller dogs bite the most. Especially this one white poodle. I ended up swatting it the last week that I had the route. I grew up with a Malamute Husky so dogs don't frighten me. There was a German Sheppard on my route that ran out onto the sidewalk where I was and bit my pant leg. I immediately jumped off my bike, threw down my bag and walked towards it yelling "NO". Thing ran away like a little sissy.

It is pretty hard to gauge what dogs are the most violent as the people who get the "nicer" dogs usually are not punks. We've all seen the db with the rottweiler or similar canine walking down the street taking up the whole sidewalk. This gives an unfair representation to people who own rottweilers and the like. I've met a few really sweet rottweilers in my time. Their owners were really good people. Quite a while ago I heard that Cocker Spaniels are the most violent.

To sum it up it is the owner who generally makes or breaks a dog. Even nice people have bad dogs due to lousy training and letting them sit chained up all day. I don't think breed has all that much to do with violent dogs.

[Nonprophet]

The dog with all the wrinkles is a Shar-pei.

Oops.... you're right and it is also the dog I'm talking about but the chow was A similar breed used for pulling and as a guard dog. Sorry, I got them confused but the chow is still basically the same and the larger issue with the can be inbreeding to get the right standard. I feel silly getting the two mixed up.... :eek:

[Nonprophet]

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I guess dog behaviour is as hard to explain as human behaviour.

Jack

Best explanation that exists.

[Nonprophet]

I've been fortunate to have owned, and worked with dogs most all of my life. This includes some very large, and powerful breeds. I've got a few feelings about the subject.

The very base of any successful relationship between a dog and a human is based on trust, security, and yes, a basic knowledge of dog language, needs, and understanding of the pack dynamic.

Dog etiquette, if you will.

Dogs need leaders. They want leadership and if you aren't capable in their eyes , for the security of the family unit they will attempt to take control if they are assertive, or withdraw and become insecure if they aren't. Dogs are not well equipped to be leaders in this world, and trouble follows. Likewise, insecurity makes them prone to another sort of problem. Neither is acceptable in an environment that has them around people or animals outside the family unit.

Family members are rarely at risk even from these types, on purpose. The dog method of reprimanding an underling is a snap to the face. Not meant to hurt, but they don't really understand how fragile a 3 year old kid can be.

Good pack leaders can be either large powerful men, or, small older women, or anything in between. You don't need a forceful personality if you know what you are doing. You should never need physical force, or you are doing something wrong.

Some breeds do need stronger leadership, just like some breeds might need special grooming, or more exercise.

Yes, this does mean that certain people are incompatible with certain types of animals. Bad dogs? Not really, IMO.

+1 this!

[The Mastiff]

just like people, the dog world has its share of bad individuals. Like humans, some of those are the product of bad breeding, some the product of bad upbringing, and some are just born evil for no discernible reason.

Again, just as with people, whether the root cause of the attack is nature or nurture matters not a whit when it is you that's being attacked. I wouldn't care whether a human attacker had been beaten by his dad, forced to wear dresses by his mom, bullied by his classmates, molested by his priest, or just born with a screwed up mind, I'd do my damnedest to stop the attack even if that meant killing him. Same with dogs.

Paul, I'm in complete agreement with you about what you need to do in the face of an attack. Whatever reason the attack happens is irrelevant, it must be dealt with.

Dogs are predators by nature. Not really all that much different than the wolven ancestors we bred them from. We are talking mostly about dogs that are removed from wild packs and are in our family units.

To a predator, a free chicken, or cat from your yard is not a thing to be passed up. Whether dog , or coyote they will smile and wag their tails as they run away with what used to be your cat in it's mouth noting that they found a place to return to as it offers free food.

That's a predator. It's not really evil in the way some people I've had the misfortune of working around.

What's really a learning experience is moving to "prey" animals and working with them. You really learn to watch your own body language and the signals you send. Predators and prey animals both study body language and can tell in an instant all they need to know about a person, or animal. They are looking for different cues though, and respond differently. You can make a deer run from you, or ignore you if you can control your own signals. Likewise you can spur an attack on you from an uncontrolled predator with those same body language signals. Most people don't have any knowledge of this science, or art. They have no idea of the signals they are sending out.

I'd suppose predators can be people too. The street criminal is a quick study maybe without the knowledge of exactly what it is they are doing.

Anyways, whether the threat is a dog, a person, or a country ready to attack yours, it has to be dealt with. The rules are basically the same, the details different.

Edit:
BTW, I'm not suggesting that people bring on, or deserve being attacked or robbed due to their body language by animals or people. Looking back, it kind of sounds like it but that's not my belief. We do have truly evil people in the world, and I've met some. Some that are just plain desperate and not making rational decisions.

My idea is more to suggest that as a dog owner you can be a better pack leader with knowledge of such stuff. If you have a dog, you are responsible for controlling it at all times. I've also learned and seen just how dangerous dogs can be. How useful too in jobs like LE.

A national geo. display of dogs in attack mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZm037jPNgc

Note: The mastiff in this one is about 4 inches shorter, and 60 lbs lighter than Finn, my now old gray haired mastiff. Truly the most stable, gentle animal or person I've ever known.

[*Cho*]

Oops.... you're right and it is also the dog I'm talking about but the chow was A similar breed used for pulling and as a guard dog. Sorry, I got them confused but the chow is still basically the same and the larger issue with the can be inbreeding to get the right standard. I feel silly getting the two mixed up.... :eek:

Not a biggie, like you said they are very similar dogs. I've met more ill-tempered chows than Shar-peis. But both were/are used traditionally for protective measures (guarding and fighting).

And I'm not blaming the breed since I voted for option number 1.

[Nonprophet]

Mastiff....hit it right on the head "A predator has a tendency to chase the prey" Sums it up nicely. Again no one DESERVES to be attacked but by misunderstanding the signals they may be sending with their body language they could initiate an attack unknowingly, much like people on people

[crm7290]

I also grew up in a house without dogs. I think that age and experience is the only way to learn communications with dogs.

[The Mastiff]

I think that age and experience is the only way to learn communications with dogs.

Just like any other skill or vocation.

[jackknifeh]

I also grew up in a house without dogs. I think that age and experience is the only way to learn communications with dogs.

It does take time to learn basic communication and a little time to learn the individual nuances of each animal. When my dog wants something it's one of three things. Food/water, bathroom outside, or play. She will walk up to me and just make eye contact and keep it. If I try to pet her she will either run towards the door or her food bowl or just stand there muscles rigid. Door means she has to pee, food bowl means she's hungry, standing there tense means she wants to play so I have to get on the floor and we chase each other around the pool table. She hates being in my lap which is nice since she weighs just over 60 lbs. :) She is much better than any cat in our house and there are several. BTW, spring will bring the concern about fleas (at least in FL). Here is my suggestion for dogs: Buy Revolution or (there's another one I like) flea drops and apply them to your dog. That is a lifesaver for fleas in a home. Cats are different. If you see a flea on a cat shoot the flea with a shotgun! :) :D Just kidding, I swear! The drops work on cats also. Drops kill all fleas on the animal in 2 hours and are supposed to last 30 days but I re-treat after 21 days. I HATE fleas. Fleas spend more time off the animal but have to jump on them to eat and then they are gonners. If you have a room that has gotten infested just treat your dog and lock her in the room for a couple of days with the doors shut. Problem solved. Flea powder should take care of the eggs later (or lock your dog in solitary in about 2 weeks). Some vets require an office visit (just to get your money) to get the drops but you can buy it on the inet. The cheap stuff at stores DOESN'T WORK! DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! I have a favorite pet site and I'll give it to you for $100. Or you can find one yourself. They are probably all the same. :) Sorry, I got off the subject and long winded. Coffee kicking in.

Jack

[SMI]

Best explanation that exists.

I don't buy that. After breeding and being around dogs for my whole life they are very predictable. It is just that most people have no idea the true signs of what they are trying to convey. Nor do they really know how to interact with dogs. Just look at the first thing most people do when they first meet a dog, they pet.

Human behavior is much more unpredictable, humans live in the past, present and future. Many variables influence their behaviors. Dogs live in the present, you can figure out exactly what they are thinking by their energy and body language. It comes with time, but after a while you'll find out that dogs are easy to read. I've rehabbed a few extremely skiddish pits that have killed other dogs and even those give you plenty of warning if you're taking the wrong actions.

[Nonprophet]

I guess when I said that what I meant was that when a dog "goes off the reservation" and brutally attacks and mauls a person even when it seemed like such a nice dog, there's always a reason and when it seems so out of character for a dog then it can usually be traced back to some problem in the dog's past (we're obviously ruling out behavioral mistakes my people that may unintentionally provoke such attacks) and those reasons can be as various as they are in people. Each such problem can have a different cause or a dog who reacts differently or shows different signs than what a person is used to. That's more what I was referring to than just "when a dog attacks it's for a lot of reasons" for the most part I agree that animals are predictable and normally give warning. It's those senational cases I am speaking of.