Hello Forum!
I've never been involved in sports, and never really took any Martial Arts. I say "never really" because I had a friend who as a Jeet Kune Do instructor, but after a couple of months (once a week) meetings, he had to give it up for some personal family reasons and I never pursued anything else. Free is easy, not free takes more commitment!
I'm 38, in okay shape (a little overweight), but my blood pressure is perfect and I've got no injuries that haunt me, and pretty good stamina for exercise.
My question to you self defense and martial arts experts: Which Martial Art would you recommend that would be a good mix of 1) whole body fitness and 2) basic self defense?
I don't want to do one of those "for fitness only" type things, I want to get some skill out of it. But I'm not planning on any kind of competition or military level expertise. Working with weapons at a later time would be of interest, but is not a necessary component.
Any thoughts are most helpful. I'd go back to JKD if I lived in the same town as my buddy, and he had time... but that's not an option.
I'm intrigued by Krav Maga, but admittedly I have no idea whatsoever what one art offers over another.
Thanks!
Help: Which Martial Art?
Help: Which Martial Art?
Mike :cool:
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1 Peter 3:15
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Winston Churchill
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Fisher Space Pen
<><
1 Peter 3:15
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity;
an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
Winston Churchill
EDC
Spyderco Meerkat Sprint
HDS Systems EDC Executive 140W
Fisher Space Pen
I studied aikido for a couple years. I'm definitely NOT a martial arts expert. I've attended a few judo classes when I visit friends in Hawaii. I found it was a pretty good work out. Aikido kept me limber, but with my instructor, we didn't use a lot of big muscles, so it wasn't much of a work out. Maybe some of the experts could comment on Judo and self-defense?
I'd focus on non-sport arts that focus on technique you will be able to do later in life as well.
After spending 6 years in a very non traditional Tae Kwon Do school this is what I learned:
* Even our idea of "non traditional" wasn't extremely practical/well-rounded for defense (or even fitness)
* High kicks look great but generally are crap
* Hard arts *can* wreak damage on your joints over time
Doing it again I would focus on reality based or more combative martial arts (Chinese/FMA) that focus less on beauty and religion and more on practical defense. The less fluff the better. You can burn calories without doing spin kicks and focus on building the body rather than scoring points in a very unrealistic world. I see quite a few 60+ year old people training in these arts that are in great shape, lucid and still quite deadly.
I would honestly rather do boxing than most arts. At least you train footwork, timing, and punching at/getting punched at.
There are combat systems like Krav Maga that are quick to learn and can be devastatingly effective. While they may make you do rolls and gun retention training it's in my mind better than testing for belts and memorizing kata.
Really it's a matter of finding what you like the look/feel of and then finding the right teacher. There are amazing and crappy teachers for everything and likewise their students range in skill. Youtube is a great place to hunt and watch. You can jump on the martial arts forums and ask, "Where is a good place in ____ to find a good teacher of ____" and they are usually very helpful.
At some point if you spend years on an art and realize later your teacher was sending you down a bunny trail it's very frustrating. Likewise training at a testosterone swill boot-camp like the Cobra Kai (Karate Kid), would get old regardless of the results.
Edit: Try to find something with a window of training where 2-3 years would generate an impressive level of skill. Something you would enjoy doing as well. It's a very valid question and not unrealistic for many arts/systems.
After spending 6 years in a very non traditional Tae Kwon Do school this is what I learned:
* Even our idea of "non traditional" wasn't extremely practical/well-rounded for defense (or even fitness)
* High kicks look great but generally are crap
* Hard arts *can* wreak damage on your joints over time
Doing it again I would focus on reality based or more combative martial arts (Chinese/FMA) that focus less on beauty and religion and more on practical defense. The less fluff the better. You can burn calories without doing spin kicks and focus on building the body rather than scoring points in a very unrealistic world. I see quite a few 60+ year old people training in these arts that are in great shape, lucid and still quite deadly.
I would honestly rather do boxing than most arts. At least you train footwork, timing, and punching at/getting punched at.
There are combat systems like Krav Maga that are quick to learn and can be devastatingly effective. While they may make you do rolls and gun retention training it's in my mind better than testing for belts and memorizing kata.
Really it's a matter of finding what you like the look/feel of and then finding the right teacher. There are amazing and crappy teachers for everything and likewise their students range in skill. Youtube is a great place to hunt and watch. You can jump on the martial arts forums and ask, "Where is a good place in ____ to find a good teacher of ____" and they are usually very helpful.
At some point if you spend years on an art and realize later your teacher was sending you down a bunny trail it's very frustrating. Likewise training at a testosterone swill boot-camp like the Cobra Kai (Karate Kid), would get old regardless of the results.
Edit: Try to find something with a window of training where 2-3 years would generate an impressive level of skill. Something you would enjoy doing as well. It's a very valid question and not unrealistic for many arts/systems.
Based on what you seem to be looking for... I'd definitely throw in a recommendation for Judo. I started a few years ago with some classes at a community college, and it's become a serious hobby. It is easy to learn, places a beginner in very little danger of serious harm, and has definite applications on the "street" (to borrow a phrase :-P). I fall back on my judo frequently during combatives practice and training at work, even. Make no mistake... it is a sporting martial art rather than a combative one. However, it is a sport that is derived from portions of various Bushido disciplines. If you are interested, I'd suggest you pick up a copy of Jigoro (sp?) Kano's Kodokan Judo and read through it. That is pretty much the definitive manual on the martial art. It should tell you whether or not that is what you are looking for.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
- Theodore Roosevelt
"I twisted the knife until I heard his heart-strings sing."
- Jim Bowie concerning Maj. Norris Wright
- Theodore Roosevelt
"I twisted the knife until I heard his heart-strings sing."
- Jim Bowie concerning Maj. Norris Wright
I doubt anyone would call me a SD or martial arts 'expert' but I've taken a little more than a passing interest in the matter throughout my life. Admittedly, I'm partial to Krav, but have seen value in many schools of thought. I've distilled what I've learned throughout my eclectic journey through various SD forms to say this: While there is much to be said about taking up one style and developing your abilities therein, there is also a common denominator amongst many styles and that is a through understanding of how your own body moves and operates, and how an opponent's body moves and operates. The ability to apply, evade, or redirect your force or an opposing force is, in my view, the key component of any effective SD form. Because, without that, you may as well go to aerobics or a spin class if you are 'just' looking for fitness. You, obviously, are not just looking for that.
I could advise to go to this school, or go to that one, , , but in the end maybe you would do well to go to a number of schools and see which one (or two, or three) fit you both physically and emotionally. Would you buy a car without test driving a few? Probably not. Conversely, maybe you are attracted to a particular style for whatever reason (kind of like being attracted to a 69 Mustang, etc.) and just want to take that direction and study it for years to come; and that's fine too, , , but only if you enjoy it and feel you are getting something out of it. Question is, what do you want out of it in the 1st place? And it sounds like you've already put some thought into that already.
I could advise to go to this school, or go to that one, , , but in the end maybe you would do well to go to a number of schools and see which one (or two, or three) fit you both physically and emotionally. Would you buy a car without test driving a few? Probably not. Conversely, maybe you are attracted to a particular style for whatever reason (kind of like being attracted to a 69 Mustang, etc.) and just want to take that direction and study it for years to come; and that's fine too, , , but only if you enjoy it and feel you are getting something out of it. Question is, what do you want out of it in the 1st place? And it sounds like you've already put some thought into that already.
^-- great advice
If you like the school you will go back. You will be comfortable and train your butt off!
Of the "sports" ones like Judo/Sambo at least have more to do with street combatives. Take a little boxing on the side and you will have a solid striking foundation and also be able to avoid/toss someone who catches you off-guard.
Avoid places that teach punching air in my opinion.
If you like the school you will go back. You will be comfortable and train your butt off!
Of the "sports" ones like Judo/Sambo at least have more to do with street combatives. Take a little boxing on the side and you will have a solid striking foundation and also be able to avoid/toss someone who catches you off-guard.
Avoid places that teach punching air in my opinion.
If you're looking for street practicality, I highly suggest getting back into JKD. (I assume by saying it wasn't an option you meant that training with that particular person again wasn't an option.) I could write for days about why I advocate JKD, but I'll try to be brief and answer your two main points first:
1) You mentioned whole body fitness... Training in JKD, you will learn elements of Boxing, Muay Thai, Kali, Silat, Savate, BJJ, Wing Chung, Shoot Wrestling, and more, covering everything from grappling to long range striking. Working every range of combat will ensure that you get a workout that works your entire body.
2) You asked about basic self defense.... JKD is based completely and entirely on street practicality. Everything you learn is meant to be the most direct, simple, and effective means of taking care of business. A major concept in JKD is creating an effective fighter quickly. You won't have to wait months or years for your abilities to become practical and effective.
As far as weapons, the Kali/Silat elements of JKD will train you in the use of a knife, stick, and any other weapon (even improvised) that you may end up having to use. If you have any interest in MBC, the knife techniques are consistent, as much of MBC is derived from Kali/Silat.
I've never trained in Krav, but it shares with JKD the same concepts of simplicity and devastating effectiveness. I actually almost went to Krav (I started as a boxer), but found that JKD was more down my alley and conducive to the skill set I already had. If you're looking for effective and realistic self defense, I don't think you could go wrong with either one.
You could look for a local school and start training more seriously in a system that you've already had a taste of. I'm sure your friend could point in a good direction as far as finding a school/trainer, but ideally you want to find someone affiliated with Dan Inosanto, preferably a "full instructor," though there are only a very small handful in the world. More likely, you may find a school led by a certified instructor under Dan Inosanto. I'm lucky enough to train at a gym with a full instructor and three certified instructors under Inosanto, which is almost unheard of at one school. Not to say those not certified are a waste of your time, but you definitely want to look into the lineage of a school/instructor to make sure you're getting real JKD training and not a random mix of arts with a few Bruce Lee quotes thrown in.
Sorry for being long winded, but I am very passionate about advocating JKD as I've found it to be consistent with my ideas of personal protection, and I've learned so much from its philosophies and concepts. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have or elaborate on anything I said here. Good luck in your search and let us know what you decide!
1) You mentioned whole body fitness... Training in JKD, you will learn elements of Boxing, Muay Thai, Kali, Silat, Savate, BJJ, Wing Chung, Shoot Wrestling, and more, covering everything from grappling to long range striking. Working every range of combat will ensure that you get a workout that works your entire body.
2) You asked about basic self defense.... JKD is based completely and entirely on street practicality. Everything you learn is meant to be the most direct, simple, and effective means of taking care of business. A major concept in JKD is creating an effective fighter quickly. You won't have to wait months or years for your abilities to become practical and effective.
As far as weapons, the Kali/Silat elements of JKD will train you in the use of a knife, stick, and any other weapon (even improvised) that you may end up having to use. If you have any interest in MBC, the knife techniques are consistent, as much of MBC is derived from Kali/Silat.
I've never trained in Krav, but it shares with JKD the same concepts of simplicity and devastating effectiveness. I actually almost went to Krav (I started as a boxer), but found that JKD was more down my alley and conducive to the skill set I already had. If you're looking for effective and realistic self defense, I don't think you could go wrong with either one.
You could look for a local school and start training more seriously in a system that you've already had a taste of. I'm sure your friend could point in a good direction as far as finding a school/trainer, but ideally you want to find someone affiliated with Dan Inosanto, preferably a "full instructor," though there are only a very small handful in the world. More likely, you may find a school led by a certified instructor under Dan Inosanto. I'm lucky enough to train at a gym with a full instructor and three certified instructors under Inosanto, which is almost unheard of at one school. Not to say those not certified are a waste of your time, but you definitely want to look into the lineage of a school/instructor to make sure you're getting real JKD training and not a random mix of arts with a few Bruce Lee quotes thrown in.
Sorry for being long winded, but I am very passionate about advocating JKD as I've found it to be consistent with my ideas of personal protection, and I've learned so much from its philosophies and concepts. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have or elaborate on anything I said here. Good luck in your search and let us know what you decide!
"You could have opened that with your hands." "Ya, but this knife cost me $60...the hands were free.":spyder:
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czechinthepipes
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My backround in Martial arts/self defense is based on taking a few years in karate (mixed with some ju jitsu and aikido) and a big interest in reading and teaching myself in various other types; specifically Krav Maga.
Overall it is up to you. From what you seem to want I would suggest Krav Maga, Kali or Jeet Kune Do (since you have experience with it).
Krav maga is a mixed/hybrid style made up of strikes/blocks of Karate, kickboxing (specifically Muay Tai), boxing and basic kung fu; Basic Ju jitsu and judo as well. It is well rounded and instead of learning forms or Kata's you learn various techniques and learn how to use them in certain situations.
It is great because it is very simplistic, yet based on very devastating counter attacks. It's techniques are based off of practical hand to hand combat and street fighting techniques. Add in that the classes are very intense you will get a great workout. The important thing to watch out for is that they are teaching/part of the International Krav Maga Association. There are some places that focus on the exercise part, instead of the defense/fighting part. I would like to add that krav Maga is one of the biggest self defense programs being taught to police, federal, military and special forces units in the world.
Jeet Kune Do is really similar to Krav Maga on its simplicity yet devastating attacks/counter attacks. It focuses on self defense rather than nice cool looking kicks and jumps etc. I have heard that it too is very intense; I would read/take a lot of what people here are saying about it; I only have limited knowledge of it.
Kali is great because it is very brutal and intense as the above, but focuses on stick and knife fighting. It does focus on hand manipulation or trapping which is nice but the basic strikes are pretty standard.
Links of info:
Krav Maga
Jeet Kune Do
Kali,Eskrima, Arnis
Overall, I suggest that you look for a style and place that you will like and that focus' on self defense while offering a great workout; it will be beneficial for you.
Good luck.
Overall it is up to you. From what you seem to want I would suggest Krav Maga, Kali or Jeet Kune Do (since you have experience with it).
Krav maga is a mixed/hybrid style made up of strikes/blocks of Karate, kickboxing (specifically Muay Tai), boxing and basic kung fu; Basic Ju jitsu and judo as well. It is well rounded and instead of learning forms or Kata's you learn various techniques and learn how to use them in certain situations.
It is great because it is very simplistic, yet based on very devastating counter attacks. It's techniques are based off of practical hand to hand combat and street fighting techniques. Add in that the classes are very intense you will get a great workout. The important thing to watch out for is that they are teaching/part of the International Krav Maga Association. There are some places that focus on the exercise part, instead of the defense/fighting part. I would like to add that krav Maga is one of the biggest self defense programs being taught to police, federal, military and special forces units in the world.
Jeet Kune Do is really similar to Krav Maga on its simplicity yet devastating attacks/counter attacks. It focuses on self defense rather than nice cool looking kicks and jumps etc. I have heard that it too is very intense; I would read/take a lot of what people here are saying about it; I only have limited knowledge of it.
Kali is great because it is very brutal and intense as the above, but focuses on stick and knife fighting. It does focus on hand manipulation or trapping which is nice but the basic strikes are pretty standard.
Links of info:
Krav Maga
Jeet Kune Do
Kali,Eskrima, Arnis
Overall, I suggest that you look for a style and place that you will like and that focus' on self defense while offering a great workout; it will be beneficial for you.
Good luck.
Spyderco FFG Delica 4 Grey
--------
-"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
-"Speak softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt
--------
-"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
-"Speak softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt
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Dr. Snubnose
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Well some would call me a Martial Arts or Self-Defense expert of sorts...I have been involved in all different types of martial arts for 54 years now.....(gee I'm one of those people that Blerv described when he said, "I see quite a few 60+ year old people training in these arts that are in great shape, lucid and still quite deadly." just not quite 60 yet..LOL) I have been teaching various martial arts now for 46 years...so I guess that qualifies me as knowing a thing or two.
In reading through the OP's post and various responses, the response that impressed me the most was Blerv's original response suggesting the Chinese Martial Arts and or FMA. I have to agree that this is the way I would go, for what the OP is looking for. I find some of the sport arts to be good but lacking in the concentration of combative practicality. I find some of the quick study arts (you know the one's I'm talking about) will give you a quick fix for Self-Defense, without a real foundation to make it work effectively when SHTF.
That's if you can even remember all the stuff they throw at you that looks good. Understand this, the criminal element doesn't have time or the inclination to develop themselves as weapons....they just go out and buy one. There is no magic pill, or quick method of learning and gaining instant effectiveness in a serious Martial Art, whichever it might be. It takes perseverance, patience, and intestinal fortitude to Master any Martial Art. Then again I just gave you the basic prescription to master anything in life, not only a martial art. My suggestion, look around, do some research, set some goals, talk with some instructors, see what looks right and feel right to you. If you can't find it....buy a weapon. (But make sure you get some training on how to use it)....Doc :D
In reading through the OP's post and various responses, the response that impressed me the most was Blerv's original response suggesting the Chinese Martial Arts and or FMA. I have to agree that this is the way I would go, for what the OP is looking for. I find some of the sport arts to be good but lacking in the concentration of combative practicality. I find some of the quick study arts (you know the one's I'm talking about) will give you a quick fix for Self-Defense, without a real foundation to make it work effectively when SHTF.
That's if you can even remember all the stuff they throw at you that looks good. Understand this, the criminal element doesn't have time or the inclination to develop themselves as weapons....they just go out and buy one. There is no magic pill, or quick method of learning and gaining instant effectiveness in a serious Martial Art, whichever it might be. It takes perseverance, patience, and intestinal fortitude to Master any Martial Art. Then again I just gave you the basic prescription to master anything in life, not only a martial art. My suggestion, look around, do some research, set some goals, talk with some instructors, see what looks right and feel right to you. If you can't find it....buy a weapon. (But make sure you get some training on how to use it)....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"
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I definitely agree with Doc here. That's why I added the part about finding a legitimate instructor/school in my post. I've seen people without the credentials to be teaching JKD (or other arts, including Krav) try to teach it as a "quick study, quick fix" art to turn a "quick profit." A good system, taught effectively, should begin to establish a SHTF base right away, and drive long term development with this practical base the focus throughout. Anything else may just end up causing a placebo effect that will get you hurt.Dr. Snubnose wrote: I find some of the quick study arts (you know the one's I'm talking about) will give you a quick fix for Self-Defense, without a real foundation to make it work effectively when SHTF.
"You could have opened that with your hands." "Ya, but this knife cost me $60...the hands were free.":spyder:
Thanks Doc :)
As he said some of the more simplistic systems offer a tool for a problem but often run-dry for something as a hobby or art. Humans often have a need for the art side of life and something utilitarian works but doesn't meet you on every peg of Maslow's Pyramid of Needs. A box cutter in some ways is far superior to a Spyderco...but let's NOT go there! :p
I like Krav's approach and the intent. I took a few classes with a local Systema school which was very interesting. Both systems will have you wearing camo pants, rolling around, and talking about field scenarios (eg: gun control, etc). While I hate the belt-system of the arts wearing fatigues is a little too campy for me personally.
As a side-note the Chinese arts, FMA and a few odd-ducks like Systema have VERY advanced body mechanic systems. You could classify many of these as "soft" styles.
The "hard" styles have very impressive strikes and brutal kicks, however, some of the advanced elements are left out. These also don't translate quite as well to weapons such as the knife. It's fairly obvious why these are more popular by mainstream society.
Frankly I don't know how to classify JKD because of my own lack of eduction. I've always seen it as Wing Chun with brutal kicks and a focus on burst-speed. I would highly recommend a school of pedigree if you go that route as lineage seems the name of the game. As mentioned by Jab it seems a style that has a very broad scope of perfection with a quick learning curve...big thumbs up in my book. :) It also seems devoid of fluffy high kicks and little dragon classes, Lol.
Later you will figure out if it has gaps that need polish (eg: knife, grappling, flow, etc). Don't feel stuck in a particular style. It's your journey and money.
As he said some of the more simplistic systems offer a tool for a problem but often run-dry for something as a hobby or art. Humans often have a need for the art side of life and something utilitarian works but doesn't meet you on every peg of Maslow's Pyramid of Needs. A box cutter in some ways is far superior to a Spyderco...but let's NOT go there! :p
I like Krav's approach and the intent. I took a few classes with a local Systema school which was very interesting. Both systems will have you wearing camo pants, rolling around, and talking about field scenarios (eg: gun control, etc). While I hate the belt-system of the arts wearing fatigues is a little too campy for me personally.
As a side-note the Chinese arts, FMA and a few odd-ducks like Systema have VERY advanced body mechanic systems. You could classify many of these as "soft" styles.
The "hard" styles have very impressive strikes and brutal kicks, however, some of the advanced elements are left out. These also don't translate quite as well to weapons such as the knife. It's fairly obvious why these are more popular by mainstream society.
Frankly I don't know how to classify JKD because of my own lack of eduction. I've always seen it as Wing Chun with brutal kicks and a focus on burst-speed. I would highly recommend a school of pedigree if you go that route as lineage seems the name of the game. As mentioned by Jab it seems a style that has a very broad scope of perfection with a quick learning curve...big thumbs up in my book. :) It also seems devoid of fluffy high kicks and little dragon classes, Lol.
Later you will figure out if it has gaps that need polish (eg: knife, grappling, flow, etc). Don't feel stuck in a particular style. It's your journey and money.
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Joe Talmadge
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The sport-based systems will give you a workout on another level than any other. All you have to do is look at the bodies at an amateur boxing/muayThai smoker or BJJ tournament versus the bodies at (say) a FMA tournament, to see a pretty striking difference.
Self-defense wise, if you want to spin up fast, I have a different perspective than everyone else here -- something like boxing or muay Thai or MMA will give you the basic fighting platform faster than anything else. It will teach you to hit hard, not panic when getting hit, mental toughness, etc., the basic fundamentals you must have to be effective at anything else. Yes, there are big things you'll miss self-defense-wise in a sporting art, but if you start there then switch a couple years down the line, you'll end up way ahead of the game.
So my suggestion: find a good MMA or muay Thai class, that will be the best workout by far and will build a fighting platform faster than anything else, and if you're still training a few years down the line, consider supplementing with FMA or the like.
Joe
Self-defense wise, if you want to spin up fast, I have a different perspective than everyone else here -- something like boxing or muay Thai or MMA will give you the basic fighting platform faster than anything else. It will teach you to hit hard, not panic when getting hit, mental toughness, etc., the basic fundamentals you must have to be effective at anything else. Yes, there are big things you'll miss self-defense-wise in a sporting art, but if you start there then switch a couple years down the line, you'll end up way ahead of the game.
So my suggestion: find a good MMA or muay Thai class, that will be the best workout by far and will build a fighting platform faster than anything else, and if you're still training a few years down the line, consider supplementing with FMA or the like.
Joe
Fitness is Fitness and SD is SD. If the SD training advances your fitness, that's a plus, but approaching SD just to learn the basics would be a waste, in my opinion. By what you've mentioned, you know the basics already; what you want to do is drill muscle memory, fast twitch response time, and all required footwork after running away has failed!
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Joe Talmadge
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This is a can't-miss strategy. I had a friend who did this for years, and now he's actually a ninja. I haven't seen him in years. Any time I"m about to catch up with him, he blows powder in my eyes and climbs the walls to escape.SQSAR wrote:Lot of good points guys, but on a less serious note: One option would be to run on a treadmill while watching old Kung-Fu and Ninja movies. As long as your power doesn't go out, you will be a bad-as_ in no time. :D
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czechinthepipes
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Wow,any chance the guy in this video is him? Lol :eek:Joe Talmadge wrote:This is a can't-miss strategy. I had a friend who did this for years, and now he's actually a ninja. I haven't seen him in years. Any time I"m about to catch up with him, he blows powder in my eyes and climbs the walls to escape.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1llLXY/ww ... Y5rUNnYFq8
Spyderco FFG Delica 4 Grey
--------
-"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
-"Speak softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt
--------
-"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke
-"Speak softly and carry a big stick". Theodore Roosevelt