Smaller Knives vs Heavy Clothing- Slash vs Thrust

If your topic has nothing to do with Spyderco, you can post it here.
User avatar
Nonprophet
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:51 pm
Location: southern Iowa

Postby Nonprophet » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:52 am

Well, honestly I don't know the term Mexican feed. Basically what I meant is when you start inside and work out from your own center the movment is faster and less telegraphic, harder for the eye to pick up than if you trace a wide arc from outside to in. Picture a fencers thrust as opposed to a right to left slash by a right hander. Basically anytime you move directly towards the line of sight the harder it is to pick up. If done correctly it can have and arc right at the end of it to make it a slash that comes in like a thrust. Does that make sense cause I'm nearly confusing myself at this point. Now...explain Mexican feed cause it sounds like something that, if I don't know it by another name, I want to know it!
As for my honesty, well I like to try and see things as they are and if that means I'm doing something less than the best way, I have no problem discarding what I have and adopting what is better and I don't really like beating around the bush so I call 'em like I see 'em! I've never been one to hype myself up and it's just nice to be able to have conversations with people who have different training without people having to pull out their pedigree to see whose is bigger. My opinion, the proof is in the application.
‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.":spyder:Robert Heinlein

User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8761
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

Postby Dr. Snubnose » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:49 am

OK NonProphet, I understand what your talking about now....A Mexican feed is simply holding the knife in your hand with the blade pointing "up" and "feeding" the blade point first with an outward rolling motion of the elbow (mostly) and shoulder. It is a short-range tactic aimed at the face/throat region. It is very fast and can be combined with slashes pretty easily. Best use is if you are body to body with your opponent's right arm (normally the weapon-arm) trapped and he is at your mercy....can be done from Hammer, Sabre or Overhand grips...Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

User avatar
Nonprophet
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:51 pm
Location: southern Iowa

Postby Nonprophet » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:06 am

I see. I understand the motion, never heard it called that though. Interesting.
‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.":spyder:Robert Heinlein

User avatar
psychophipps
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Texas, in the RGV

Postby psychophipps » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:10 am

Never heard it called it that either, but it sounds like what I was taught for high-line thrusting with blade-forward, edge-in. Like a boxing hook with a knife, basically. It's good for getting around the arms of someone that uses boxing-type default blocking as you back-cut on the withdrawal to make them earn each block the hard way.

The method of thrusting I was taught was a locked wrist hammer grip largely to the low-line so it's harder to block or see when you're in bad breath range. Centerline thrust in with an upward angle due to your locked wrist and pull straight back to chamber to open the puncture up. Rinse and repeat with plenty of high-low combos, offhand neck hooks, chin jab shoving, and using your leg attacks to keep them unbalanced and backpedaling.

User avatar
Nonprophet
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:51 pm
Location: southern Iowa

Postby Nonprophet » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:51 am

when you say hammer grip do you mean point up or point down? I also really like the idea of retracting to the next chamber. We use that as often as is possible to remove wasted movement and make ourselves faster and less telegraphic.
‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.":spyder:Robert Heinlein

User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8761
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

Postby Dr. Snubnose » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:59 pm

Hammer Point up...Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

User avatar
SolidState
Member
Posts: 1749
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:37 pm
Location: Oregon

Postby SolidState » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:34 pm

Gotta love when Doc pulls out old-school prison lingo.
"Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
Sir Humphry Davy

User avatar
KaliGman
Member
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Motions in Combat

Postby KaliGman » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:05 pm

Dr. Snubnose wrote:Ok...lets step it up a notch a bit....What grip will you be using for your thrusts....Forward Grip for power....Reverse Grip Blade Facing Out, which gives you a weak slashing ability as you kinda push your opponent away from you using this type of slash.....Blade facing in...where you get a good depth on the stab and slash your way out, drawing your opponent into you...but you have to be much closer to your opponent for it to be effective...and lets ask the question...which is right for a folder?....when you stab in normal reverse grip, the angle at which your arm moves, no matter what angle of attack you are using, is an arcing motion... and the way this hits the target, it puts a TON of pressure on the back of the blade, which can cause even the best lock to fail, now flip the knife over, and all that pressure is being put onto the stop pin, and against the edge... safer , and makes a better wound. Wth a fixed blade, the same is true, except the fixed blade cant fold up on you, but you can still get better wounds with a simple in/out stab, because of that arcing movement pressing the edge against the side of the wound, widening it....So what do you think?.....Doc :D
Doc,

I'll have to disagree on a couple of things here. First of all, anyone who has studied a good silat system taught by a competent instructor will be able to use the same body mechanics which power the devastatingly powerful elbow strikes which are hallmarks of good silat to power the reverse grip, edge out cuts. Rather than a "weak slashing ability" one gets very powerful cuts, if the correct methodology is used. I've demonstrated this a time or two in photos for magazine articles, videos, and a few more interesting places. I wrote a whole magazine article on the relationship between reverse grip edge out and elbow strikes in the Albo Kali Silat system. Black Belt magazine accepted the article, but went through a format change and I was told that the article will be published "sometime in the future." As for the reverse grip, edge out cut or slash pushing a target away anymore than a standard, forward or hammer grip slash or cut, I don't see it. The edge is drawn down a target, and with the methodologies I use, the targets that are cut are not pushed any further away than targets cut with a forward grip.

As for not being able to thrust in a straight line in an edge out reverse grip, once again, I'll have to disagree. With proper technique, a bit of wrist articulation, and the three-dimensional rotation of elbow and shoulder joints to provide a bit of power, the arc of elbow and shoulder manipulation does not affect the ability to thrust straight into and retract out of a target, providing the target is not at the absolute limit of effective attack range. I will also say that I have seen many shall we say "technique challenged" individuals use the pakal edge in grip with incorrect body mechanics and put what would be "closing pressure" in a folding knife. With correct training and practice, pakal edge in does not put a lot of closing pressure on a folder, if everything goes right. Based on real world experience in multiple confrontations in my several years of law enforcement, things seldom go right :D . Thrusting with a folder, using coring motions, etc. can all put a lot of pressure on a lock. I recommend that those who carry a folder for defensive purposes honestly assess their skill and level of training, determine how they would put this training and skill to use in a real situation, and determine what lock strength is required for them and what knives fit their "personal usage profile." As for me, I have several different folders that I use and trust, most of them Spydercos, a Cold Steel Espada, an Emerson or two, etc. However, the older I get, the more time I spend either grabbing bad guys or trying to clean up what is left in the aftermath of an attack by the aforementioned evil street goblins, and the more I pressure test my system and spar and train with my students, the more I think that the best knife for most to carry for serious social purposes is a fixed blade.
"There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

"The most pervasive and least condemned form of dishonesty is not doing the best you can." Colonel Jeff Cooper

2edgesword
Member
Posts: 273
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 7:22 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby 2edgesword » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:56 pm

The power of a knife is the sharp edge. I'm all for strong locking technology but proper technique and a sharp edge will go a long way in avoiding undue stress on a locking mechanism.
Certified Instructor - Martial Blade Concepts

"The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men, and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it possible an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin

User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8761
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

Postby Dr. Snubnose » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:02 pm

Ay John, Thanks for jumping into this thread...First off I should have said most of the time...because I can also make linear thrusts from Pikal grip both edge in and out...but I was thinking for the most part how others who are untrained would make those strikes...secondly I agree 100% with the statement that for serious social encounters I would trust mostly the fixed bladed tool.....as far as silat elbows I have little exposure to that art...so I trust your knowledge to say that they will be able to use Pikal grip edge out effectively for slashing, I have no problems making deep slash wound in Pikal Grip blade out, but credit it to my Chinese Kung Fu Training, that said It has been my experience that when people use Pikal grip Edge out and are untrained they have a tendency to push opponents away with the blade and make shallow wound slashes, specially if their target is moving....The only time I have seen them able to make those deep slashing wounds is when they are able to press their opponents into a wall or have their opponents basically standing there and not move...Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

User avatar
KaliGman
Member
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:51 pm
Location: Illinois
Contact:

True

Postby KaliGman » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:16 pm

2edgesword wrote:The power of a knife is the sharp edge. I'm all for strong locking technology but proper technique and a sharp edge will go a long way in avoiding undue stress on a locking mechanism.
This is a true statement. For example, I have done "defensive work" with non-locking folders (like the UK Penknife). I will add a caveat, though. In real life, it is not all proper technique and a sharp edge, it also depends on the ability to remain cool under pressure and apply the proper methodologies. I have seen many who were great in drills and even in sparring who could not perform in the "for real and true" when people were actually trying to kill them. Training and experience do tend to be the best predictors of behavior in real combat, though. I tell my students that training, methodology, and experience are the three parts of the triangle. You can train extensively in poor methodology and be in poor shape to handle a confrontation. You can have great methodology but fail to train adequately in that methodology. You can have a superior level of training in a great methodology and without the experience of actual confrontations always have to wonder whether everything will gel under combat conditions.

Just some thoughts generated by your post. Good post by the way. Take care and train hard.

Jon
"There is no weapon more deadly than the will." Bruce Lee

"The most pervasive and least condemned form of dishonesty is not doing the best you can." Colonel Jeff Cooper

User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8677
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines
Contact:

Postby chuck_roxas45 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:50 pm

Thanks for you very informative contributions to these thread you guys. :D


Very much appreciated.

User avatar
Nonprophet
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:51 pm
Location: southern Iowa

Postby Nonprophet » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:24 pm

, the more I think that the best knife for most to carry for serious social purposes is a fixed blade.


Agree 100% in a perfect world a person would face such confrontations with a fixed blade. Most people don't make a habit of carrying fixed blade knives for EDC. I do, and will but most people will be lucky if they have an old Buck pocket knife in their pocket when the stinky brown stuff hits the redneck air conditioner. Also agree that a well trained person can effect serious cutting and stabbing wounds from any grip in any motion by nature of their better mechanics and on that topic I think everyone who carries a knife should train to use it. As for the Silat elbow generating slashing power in the reverse grip, in our terminology we would say that in that elbow position you are locking the arm and therefore the blade to your center and are actually getting your force from the power of center and the weight behind it instead of just the strength of the arm. It's this same thing I mean when I was talking about the downward slash or strike from a standard grip to cut powerfully to the thigh. Good to have you in this discussion KaliGMan....
‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.":spyder:Robert Heinlein

stonyman
Member
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:05 pm

Postby stonyman » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:12 pm

You know I usually bypass threads like this because it is quite hard to not step on toes or alienate myself from the pack. In numerous incidents observed and participating in my share, kalig hit it with Skill, methodology and experience. The flaws that I see with many who draw inferences on the edge in or out debate walk blindly.

I have learned to laugh because they fail to utilize the strengths of each and pass one off as inferior to the other. The only truth that I am concerned with is going home along with my guys. Knives,guns etc are world changing meetings.......someone should be prepared to stay in this world while your assailant goes to visit another. You cannot stand still,swing your wonderful ideals of bladed combat and wish for the best!!??

Try an ugly rendition of rugby, closing with your enemy and saving your life. Time and time again many of you have heard things usually do not go as planned. You may have to fight your way through a blade to get to one.......it may, just may not be in our preferred grip. Establish your objectives now, seriously and find out what you are willing to base your life upon. I pray that whatever you chose...........Works!

stonyman
Member
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:05 pm

Postby stonyman » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:20 pm

I also have to say that there is no reinventing the wheel here. Man I really like spyderco folders, but a good fixed blade is simplistically perfect! ;)

User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8761
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

Postby Dr. Snubnose » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:24 am

stonyman wrote:You know I usually bypass threads like this because it is quite hard to not step on toes or alienate myself from the pack. In numerous incidents observed and participating in my share, kalig hit it with Skill, methodology and experience. The flaws that I see with many who draw inferences on the edge in or out debate walk blindly.

I have learned to laugh because they fail to utilize the strengths of each and pass one off as inferior to the other. The only truth that I am concerned with is going home along with my guys. Knives,guns etc are world changing meetings.......someone should be prepared to stay in this world while your assailant goes to visit another. You cannot stand still,swing your wonderful ideals of bladed combat and wish for the best!!??

Try an ugly rendition of rugby, closing with your enemy and saving your life. Time and time again many of you have heard things usually do not go as planned. You may have to fight your way through a blade to get to one.......it may, just may not be in our preferred grip. Establish your objectives now, seriously and find out what you are willing to base your life upon. I pray that whatever you chose...........Works!


Come onnn....you just try and step on my toes :mad: ....I might have to stab you with my new Ladybug Salt.....using my favorite RGEI&O Pickle Pikal Mexican Silat Grip :eek: eek:.What have you got against Rugby players anyway.....hmmm... ;) hope he's not wearing body armor :confused: should have brought my fixed blade and prayed that it works!.....Doc :p :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

stonyman
Member
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:05 pm

Postby stonyman » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:21 pm

Sorry knifebro, not your toes. I just see and hear too much misinformation out there. You and kalig and some of you others are not "MERE MORTALS!" Now, ok, back to the thread. If you are caught with small knives only..........a good incision, may just be what the Doc ordered! Hey, stab, to cut and cut to stab..........Win as decisively as possible!.............. Doc if I stubbed your toe, you mean I could not call timeout, jump in my truck and drive away leaving a puff of Chevy smoke? Seriously, your back is covered, bro! Take care all and God Bless!

User avatar
Nonprophet
Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:51 pm
Location: southern Iowa

Postby Nonprophet » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:39 pm

I would echo the sentiment that this is one of the few places I have seen that lacks a lot of "Keyboard Warriors" who know everything and if Dan Inosanto himself told them they were wrong, they would explain how he was too old to know anything. Only reason I participate is the quality of people in these conversations.
‎"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.":spyder:Robert Heinlein

User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8761
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

Postby Dr. Snubnose » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:49 pm

stonyman wrote:Sorry knifebro, not your toes. I just see and hear too much misinformation out there. You and kalig and some of you others are not "MERE MORTALS!" Now, ok, back to the thread. If you are caught with small knives only..........a good incision, may just be what the Doc ordered! Hey, stab, to cut and cut to stab..........Win as decisively as possible!.............. Doc if I stubbed your toe, you mean I could not call timeout, jump in my truck and drive away leaving a puff of Chevy smoke? Seriously, your back is covered, bro! Take care all and God Bless!
Ay Stonyman: I couldn't think of anyone better to watch my back....Doc ;)
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*

User avatar
ceya
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby ceya » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:48 pm

224477 wrote:You have to choose targets more properly in winter, due heavier upper clothing.
Palms, legs, knee tendons, face, neck.. Depends on how serious the 'communication' needs to be.

I agree with this statement.

Focus on where the least clothing and high profile target areas.

We also have to look at what kind of small knife you have with you.

What I can do with a Dragonfly will be different with a Baby Goddard or Ladybug.

Being in the cold also plays a factor in reaction time so high targerted area must be put into play with both knife and empty hand.

S/F,
CEYA!
"Stay in the fight because we are Marines and the mission will be complete regardless of degree of difficulty."

by CEYA!


Return to “Off-Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: murphjd25, TkoK83Spy and 9 guests