(Emphasis Mine) But do the mentally ill guys get that message? Going in and physically dealing with the offender is part of the rules (written or unwritten) but do prisoners who are really insane understand that?The Deacon wrote:Hope the CO is ok Jim. As for the inmate, sometimes, the only way to open their minds is by cracking their skulls.
If you read Jim's post, the inmate was in the mental heath unit of the prison. Am sure it depends on the state, but here in New York, as a general rule, that's where you'd wind up if you were tried, and convicted, then became insane. If you were declared unfit to stand trial, or judged "not guilty due to major mental illness" you'd wind up in a forensic hospital. But in either prison or hospital, the possibility of attacks on staff exists, and have to be dealt with.gac wrote:(Emphasis Mine) But do the mentally ill guys get that message? Going in and physically dealing with the offender is part of the rules (written or unwritten) but do prisoners who are really insane understand that?
How far gone are these guys? Would they be in a psych. hospital/prison if the option were available?
Hope you weren't the one who gave Adam Berwid his day pass.Dr. Snubnose wrote:Hope the officers heals up quickly Jim....When I worked at the State Hospital here in NY, I worked on the unit for the criminally insane...most of the time they end up hurting themselves...but the risk of attack is always there...all you can do is restrain and wait for help or back-up....there is no amount of reasoning that can be done in these situations when dealing with the insane....there is an old Chinese expression that goes something like this...." In order to speak convincingly of peace it must be done from a position of power"....Doc
It sounds like a bad situation all the way around. COs already get attacked by the non-insane but at least those guys (presumably) understand they will get punished and may be deterred. But, a validly insane guy cannot understand what is going on and may see anything as a threat. COs are not social workers or psychologists but deal with people who seem to really need that care. That care could result in safer work for the staff.The Deacon wrote: Do they "get the message"? Probably only to the point of becoming momentarily passive due to pain, fear, or unconsciousness. But, you can't "reason" with crazy people and, not only can't you just declare them useless and dangerous and euthanize them, you actually have to make at least some feeble attempts at preventing them from killing themselves. In New York (and I'm guessing in most other states) you can't keep them in physical restraints all the time or use chemical restraint without their consent. What else is there?
Again, I can't speak for PA, and even my direct knowledge of the NYS system is somewhat out of date, but prisons here with mental heath units have psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental heath personnel on staff, and the COs who work those units normally receive at least some of the same training as SHTA's (Secure Hospital Treatment Assistants), who are the direct care staff at forensic hospitals. And, even though the staff to client ratio is higher in the hospitals, there are more assaults on and injuries to staff there. You are dealing with people who are insane or MICA and who, unlike the majority of the mentally ill, have a proclivity to violent behavior. As with the "sane" inmates, not all of them are particularly dangerous to staff, but some are very much so.gac wrote:It sounds like a bad situation all the way around. COs already get attacked by the non-insane but at least those guys (presumably) understand they will get punished and may be deterred. But, a validly insane guy cannot understand what is going on and may see anything as a threat. COs are not social workers or psychologists but deal with people who seem to really need that care. That care could result in safer work for the staff.
Judging from Jim's previous posts I guess that kind of support won't happen from the state or the administration for a long, long time.
Coupla points.tac wrote:It's a shame those individuals aren't simply kept tranquilized to the point they're not a threat to the good guys.
I can't speak for New York, or any state for that matter, but in Canada if someone is clinically mentally ill and on a mental health ward/unit they are usually pink slipped. Pink slipped means they have been committed by physicians because two or more doctors have decided this person is no longer able to appreciate reality and have become a danger to oneself or others.The Deacon wrote: you can't keep them in physical restraints all the time or use chemical restraint without their consent. What else is there?
This pretty much sums up my views on the subject.2cha wrote:Coupla points.
First, easy to say "those individuals," but what if that "them" is someone close to you? I have two sons who have a greatly increased genetic risk of mental illness, so "those individuals" you refer to could be my kids someday. Plus, about 1% of the population in general has schizophrenia--so chances are that someone you know has a family member who is seriously ill. Flippantly suggesting chemical restraint when you have little or no experience with the disease is pretty insensitive to put it as mildly as I can.
Second, the people in the MH units, unlike many people in prison, quite simply don't have the same capacity for choice as the rest of us. While I'm truly sorry the officer was injured, it's simply not the same thing as an assault in the general population.
Third, while it may be true that the people in the MH unit were found fit for trial, that doesn't mean they weren't sick before their conviction--in all likelihood, they were sick and either hadn't yet manifested their symptoms, weren't so sick that they couldn't stand trial or be convicted, or had poor representation. The rate of major psychosis among the prison population is about 3x that of psychosis in the general population.
Fourth, imagine having your mind tell you that the world is out to get you, and then finding yourself locked in a cell. Sounds like hell on earth. Try having some compassion.
To me, assuming Jimd wasn't be facetious, it sounds like the COs acted appropriately and compassionately even after injury to one of their own. That takes balls and heart. Kudos.
As an aside, I spent 5 years of my life at about 60 hrs. a week working with chronically mentally ill adults and another 6 months with dually diagnosed and/or multi-handicapped youth (I couldn't take it, we did lots of physical restraints) in unlocked facilities. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
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