I am going to Germany for a 4 days workshop, and I would like to bring a knife with me. I was thinking about my Cara-cara, since is the cheapest one I have and I would not like to leave an expensive one alone in my luggage... Does anyone knows if it is legal to carry such a "not so small" knife in Germany?
thank you.
fede.
Anyone knows what's the Germany knives law?
Cara-Cara is not the best idea. You are a visitor in a foreign country and respect the local laws, do you?
Take a slipjoint with you ... it's allowed folder. For a locking knife as EDC indepentend of the size you need a legal reason for carrying.
Have a nice trip :)
Take a slipjoint with you ... it's allowed folder. For a locking knife as EDC indepentend of the size you need a legal reason for carrying.
Have a nice trip :)
Peter - founding member of Spydiewiki.com
"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"
Spyderco's company motto
"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"
Spyderco's company motto
Sorry, Peter, your statement is a little short and the last sentence probably is wrong. I wanted to write the following in an earlier thread but never did. Now I have completed it and think this is a suitable current thread for it.
The German Weapon Law is a little more complex concerning knives than what has been written yet in this thread. Especially after the last amending law that has brought § 42a WaffG (WaffG = Waffengesetz, what is the German Weapon Law) with it, it has become much harder (if not even impossible) to tell what is wrong or right in the sense of the law.
There are different categories of edged items one should know.
1. The forbidden weapons: In short, weapons which are listed in the law as forbidden to possess, because they are too dangerous in the eyes of the lawmakers. Examples are fistknives (blade 90 degrees to the handle), butterfly knives, gravity knives (knives which after releasing a lock! can be opened by gravity. without a locked! closed position it´s no gravity knife). Also all OTF autoknives are forbidden to possess (exept one special rescue model with a dull tip).
Other autoknives are forbidden to possess if their blades are longer than 8,5 cm or have 2 sharp edges. Also forbidden to possess are knives which simulate to be another object, e.g. a swordcane or a knife which seems to be a belt buckle. Which knife/object exactly is and which knife/object is not considered to be a forbidden weapon is sometimes impossible to tell until the BKA, which is the federal police headquarter in Germany, has decided about it.
To possess a not allowed weapon can cause a sentence up to 3 years jail.
2. The (allowed) weapons: In short, weapons which are allowed to possess, but underlie severe restrictions in carry. Examples are fixed blades with blade length over 12 cm, daggers (even under 12 cm blade, but 2 sharp edges) and (allowed) auto knives.
Since the new law the most problematic point in my book is which knife is a weapon and which is not in the sense of the law. This is important to know because of the differences in culpability for violations. To carry an (allowed to possess) knife which is not allowed to carry is an infraction (Ordnungswidrigkeit) that could cost you up to 10.000 Euro, probably it´s much less in the first case. To carry an (allowed to possess) weapon to a public event or gathering (§ 2 III VersG = versammlungsgesetz, what is the law about gatherings) is a misdemeanor and can bring you up to 3 years to jail. This probably also will only cause a fine, but it could be rather high and the hole thing is risky.
It seems the BKA is not in charge of decisions about weapons character but only about if a weapon is prohibited or not. The decision about weapons character seems to be solely the business of courts.
3. The non weapon knives: In short, knives which are not built for attack or defense against humans. Again problematic is, the new law has restricted not only the carry of allowed to possess weapons but also of some former non weapon knives, namely one-hand lockable in position folding knives and fixed blades with blade length over 12 cm. This is especially problematic because one doesn´t know, if they are now also weapons or not. Argument for seeing them as non weapons is, in § 42a WaffG they are listed parallel to (other?) weapons knives. But argument for their weapons character is, § 1 WaffG says, this hole weapon law is about weapons (only). so if they are listed in an article of the law they have to be weapons.
I know, it´s complicated and sounds crazy but this is how our politicians work in Germany, in the heart of Europe, not in Banana Republic.
Thus the safest would be to carry knives which are no one-hand lockable folders or slip joints or fixed blades with up to 12 cm blade length. Plus they should not be weapons. I for myself am not sure if e.g. a Spyderco Ronin would be considered to be no weapon. It probably might be, but I´m really not sure about it. Again, one edged folders should be ok to carry if they are two-hand openers with lock or non locking like the UKPK. This should make Spyderco folders with Spyderholes legal to carry if they would have only very small holes without one-hand function and no cobra hood or wave which could be used to open one-handed too.
I don´t believe methods like the spyderdrop or flicking after releasing the lock would be included as one-hand opening in the sense of the law. These methods require artistic skill, are not practicable from everyone and not in every situation, e.g. not in a small distance with little room to swing. But as far as I know no court has decided or even written about this yet.
Plus first persons who (pre)juge about knives would be police officers. Due to named reasons they are often no experts in knife law and I guess they often would confiscate a doubtful knife to let an attorney decide about it. This surely would also depend on the situation.
A few more things one should know about the new law. It says one is allowed to carry one-hand lockable in postion folders and fixed blades over 12 cm blade length even if they are allowed weapons if one has a legitimate interest to carry them. The law names 3 reasons that are accepted as legitimate interest, which are occupation, sports and generally accepted purpose. What the defintion of generally accepted purpose is, no one knows yet.
Most important is, to carry a knife for self defense according to our authorities is no "generally accepted purpose" and therefore is no legitimate interest in Germany. For example, if one would carry a karambit or hawkbill like fixed blade, chances are that it would be considered to be a "weapon". But it could be an allowed mushroom knife. Boker has one with a hawkbill blade for mushrooms. One could e.g. carry a Street Beat, which probably is not a "weapon" in Germany despite its roots (e.g. rather similiar German knickers are no "weapons"), if it officially would be for e.g. small snacks (Vesper, Vespermesser) or for rescue purposes (according to our Secretary of the Interior it would be even allowed to carry a one-hand knife for rescue purposes, BUT I would NOT count on that).
This is not a complete statement about the German weapons law. This is not legal advice in the sense of the German law. This is only a general explanation about some aspects and the complexity of our weapons law without engagement.
Have fun visiting Germany and stay safe.
JB
The German Weapon Law is a little more complex concerning knives than what has been written yet in this thread. Especially after the last amending law that has brought § 42a WaffG (WaffG = Waffengesetz, what is the German Weapon Law) with it, it has become much harder (if not even impossible) to tell what is wrong or right in the sense of the law.
There are different categories of edged items one should know.
1. The forbidden weapons: In short, weapons which are listed in the law as forbidden to possess, because they are too dangerous in the eyes of the lawmakers. Examples are fistknives (blade 90 degrees to the handle), butterfly knives, gravity knives (knives which after releasing a lock! can be opened by gravity. without a locked! closed position it´s no gravity knife). Also all OTF autoknives are forbidden to possess (exept one special rescue model with a dull tip).
Other autoknives are forbidden to possess if their blades are longer than 8,5 cm or have 2 sharp edges. Also forbidden to possess are knives which simulate to be another object, e.g. a swordcane or a knife which seems to be a belt buckle. Which knife/object exactly is and which knife/object is not considered to be a forbidden weapon is sometimes impossible to tell until the BKA, which is the federal police headquarter in Germany, has decided about it.
To possess a not allowed weapon can cause a sentence up to 3 years jail.
2. The (allowed) weapons: In short, weapons which are allowed to possess, but underlie severe restrictions in carry. Examples are fixed blades with blade length over 12 cm, daggers (even under 12 cm blade, but 2 sharp edges) and (allowed) auto knives.
Since the new law the most problematic point in my book is which knife is a weapon and which is not in the sense of the law. This is important to know because of the differences in culpability for violations. To carry an (allowed to possess) knife which is not allowed to carry is an infraction (Ordnungswidrigkeit) that could cost you up to 10.000 Euro, probably it´s much less in the first case. To carry an (allowed to possess) weapon to a public event or gathering (§ 2 III VersG = versammlungsgesetz, what is the law about gatherings) is a misdemeanor and can bring you up to 3 years to jail. This probably also will only cause a fine, but it could be rather high and the hole thing is risky.
It seems the BKA is not in charge of decisions about weapons character but only about if a weapon is prohibited or not. The decision about weapons character seems to be solely the business of courts.
3. The non weapon knives: In short, knives which are not built for attack or defense against humans. Again problematic is, the new law has restricted not only the carry of allowed to possess weapons but also of some former non weapon knives, namely one-hand lockable in position folding knives and fixed blades with blade length over 12 cm. This is especially problematic because one doesn´t know, if they are now also weapons or not. Argument for seeing them as non weapons is, in § 42a WaffG they are listed parallel to (other?) weapons knives. But argument for their weapons character is, § 1 WaffG says, this hole weapon law is about weapons (only). so if they are listed in an article of the law they have to be weapons.
I know, it´s complicated and sounds crazy but this is how our politicians work in Germany, in the heart of Europe, not in Banana Republic.
Thus the safest would be to carry knives which are no one-hand lockable folders or slip joints or fixed blades with up to 12 cm blade length. Plus they should not be weapons. I for myself am not sure if e.g. a Spyderco Ronin would be considered to be no weapon. It probably might be, but I´m really not sure about it. Again, one edged folders should be ok to carry if they are two-hand openers with lock or non locking like the UKPK. This should make Spyderco folders with Spyderholes legal to carry if they would have only very small holes without one-hand function and no cobra hood or wave which could be used to open one-handed too.
I don´t believe methods like the spyderdrop or flicking after releasing the lock would be included as one-hand opening in the sense of the law. These methods require artistic skill, are not practicable from everyone and not in every situation, e.g. not in a small distance with little room to swing. But as far as I know no court has decided or even written about this yet.
Plus first persons who (pre)juge about knives would be police officers. Due to named reasons they are often no experts in knife law and I guess they often would confiscate a doubtful knife to let an attorney decide about it. This surely would also depend on the situation.
A few more things one should know about the new law. It says one is allowed to carry one-hand lockable in postion folders and fixed blades over 12 cm blade length even if they are allowed weapons if one has a legitimate interest to carry them. The law names 3 reasons that are accepted as legitimate interest, which are occupation, sports and generally accepted purpose. What the defintion of generally accepted purpose is, no one knows yet.
Most important is, to carry a knife for self defense according to our authorities is no "generally accepted purpose" and therefore is no legitimate interest in Germany. For example, if one would carry a karambit or hawkbill like fixed blade, chances are that it would be considered to be a "weapon". But it could be an allowed mushroom knife. Boker has one with a hawkbill blade for mushrooms. One could e.g. carry a Street Beat, which probably is not a "weapon" in Germany despite its roots (e.g. rather similiar German knickers are no "weapons"), if it officially would be for e.g. small snacks (Vesper, Vespermesser) or for rescue purposes (according to our Secretary of the Interior it would be even allowed to carry a one-hand knife for rescue purposes, BUT I would NOT count on that).
This is not a complete statement about the German weapons law. This is not legal advice in the sense of the German law. This is only a general explanation about some aspects and the complexity of our weapons law without engagement.
Have fun visiting Germany and stay safe.
JB
We need locking :spyder: folders, at least a D4, with very small :spyder:holes (no one-hand function, only trademark) for legal carry in Germany!
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
The whole thing in short;
It's allowed to carry; (regarding folders)
1.) One-Hand folding knives without locking machanism ( i.e. UKPK)
2.) Two-Hand folders with a locking machanism ´( i.e. Fällkniven U2)
3.) Only with legal reason; One-Hand folder WITH locking mechanism
Since it's not so sure yet what this "reagal reason" acutally is i would advise you to take option 1 or 2.
Have a nice trip.
It's allowed to carry; (regarding folders)
1.) One-Hand folding knives without locking machanism ( i.e. UKPK)
2.) Two-Hand folders with a locking machanism ´( i.e. Fällkniven U2)
3.) Only with legal reason; One-Hand folder WITH locking mechanism
Since it's not so sure yet what this "reagal reason" acutally is i would advise you to take option 1 or 2.
Have a nice trip.
Yep Sir, I tend to short posts. Thanks for your correction and your post in detail.J.B wrote:Sorry, Peter, your statement is a little short and the last sentence probably is wrong.
I forgot to include an important thing - the :spyder: :
For a locking :spyder: -knife as EDC indepentend of the size you need a legal reason for carrying.
Peter - founding member of Spydiewiki.com
"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"
Spyderco's company motto
"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"
Spyderco's company motto
Peter, you are welcome. I´m glad if it would be helpful. Small bug, big meaning 
JB
JB
We need locking :spyder: folders, at least a D4, with very small :spyder:holes (no one-hand function, only trademark) for legal carry in Germany!
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
-
silverback
- Member
- Posts: 1117
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Cologne, Germany
Hi, let me elaborate the point a little bit.
The law is not intended to forbid socially adequate reasons for knife carry. Exceptions for carrying locking one-hand folders are if you need it for work, hunting, fishing, everyday tasks etc.
So, in the unlikely case you are questioned by the police, you'll just need a good explanation like: "It's a tool, I use it for cutting boxes and making sandwiches." or even "I am a collector.". (This was paraphrased from the german Messermagazin)
Since you'll carry a slipjoint it won't be a problem anyway, but I just thought I'd complete the thread for future reference.
The law is not intended to forbid socially adequate reasons for knife carry. Exceptions for carrying locking one-hand folders are if you need it for work, hunting, fishing, everyday tasks etc.
So, in the unlikely case you are questioned by the police, you'll just need a good explanation like: "It's a tool, I use it for cutting boxes and making sandwiches." or even "I am a collector.". (This was paraphrased from the german Messermagazin)
Since you'll carry a slipjoint it won't be a problem anyway, but I just thought I'd complete the thread for future reference.
Few people think more than two or three times a year; I have made an international reputation for myself by thinking once or twice a week. -George Bernard Shaw
Go is a pursuit of such value that one can devote a lifetime to it and have nothing to regret. Why not, then, challenge the limit of your powers. -Toshiro Kageyama 7-Dan
Go is a pursuit of such value that one can devote a lifetime to it and have nothing to regret. Why not, then, challenge the limit of your powers. -Toshiro Kageyama 7-Dan
Silverback, if you carry a knife for which "you'll just need a good explanation" (socially adequate reason, the law says: generally accepted purpose) the question is, whether a police officer believes the explanation or not.
Even if the explanation would later be accepted by a judge, you probably would have a lot of trouble beforehand. Your knive could be conviscated and you could have to deal with the police department and the district attorney's office. A lot of talking and wating for their decissions and maybe a trial would be involved. Who would want that?
But to complete the thread further, there is a specialty in the city of Hamburg. Since 2007 they have established ban areas, as far as I know 3 of them around the Reeperbahn, which must not be entered while carring the objects shown on the prohibition signs. They started with guns, all knives (even slipjoints), sticks, baseball bats and some sprays for self defense (exception self defense sprays for women, if they are BKA approved). Now they want to expand it to glas bottles. Friday 22.00 til sunday 06.00 it should be not allowed to carry glas bottles.
What comes next? Ligthers (with or without flammable liquid or substance), belts, shoelaces, dog leashs, wire, screwdrivers? How long does it take them to treat all citizens on the streets like they were in prison?
JB
Even if the explanation would later be accepted by a judge, you probably would have a lot of trouble beforehand. Your knive could be conviscated and you could have to deal with the police department and the district attorney's office. A lot of talking and wating for their decissions and maybe a trial would be involved. Who would want that?
But to complete the thread further, there is a specialty in the city of Hamburg. Since 2007 they have established ban areas, as far as I know 3 of them around the Reeperbahn, which must not be entered while carring the objects shown on the prohibition signs. They started with guns, all knives (even slipjoints), sticks, baseball bats and some sprays for self defense (exception self defense sprays for women, if they are BKA approved). Now they want to expand it to glas bottles. Friday 22.00 til sunday 06.00 it should be not allowed to carry glas bottles.
What comes next? Ligthers (with or without flammable liquid or substance), belts, shoelaces, dog leashs, wire, screwdrivers? How long does it take them to treat all citizens on the streets like they were in prison?
JB
We need locking :spyder: folders, at least a D4, with very small :spyder:holes (no one-hand function, only trademark) for legal carry in Germany!
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)
If I could only keep one of all my knives, it probably would be a D4.
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter.
Try again, fail again, fail better.
(Samuel Beckett)