MBC info

[2edgesword]

When being attacked with a knife the main consideration is what is the quickest way to stop the attack. Is it a slash to the throat, stomach, stab to the heart, etc.

It can be argued (with some research to back it up) that even if you are successful with a slash/stab to the throat, stomach, heart it may take a certain amount of time for there to be enough blood loss to cause the person to go into shock and rendered unconscience or seriously disabled. I've heard statistics on the amount of blood loss required before an individual passes out and it could range from as little as 10 seconds to over a minute depending on their weight and the extend of the damage (example: a totally or partically severed carotid). During that 10 seconds to a minute they can still do a considerable amount of damage with the knife they still hold in their hand.

Bio-mechanical cutting isn't magic but if your initial cut is to the flexor tendons, bicep or tricep it's going to have an immediate affect on the individuals ability to weld a knife. It may not be a total disarm but you've compromised to some extend the use of their knife welding arm which is a good thing.

In addition no one says that every cut has to be a "defang the snake" slash/stab to the arm/hand. It could be slash to the forearm, punyo to the face, slash to the bicep, stab to the liver, cut to the quadricep, stab to the kidney, etc.

I understand the chaos of a fight (I probably was involved in 20 or so street fights in my late teens and early twenties). I've never been in a knife fight but I've had knives and guns pulled on me in the street (still hear to talking about it so the outcome was good). I understand that your precision in targeting a particular spot is going to be compromised to some extent during that 10 seconds of chaos. But training to attack the forearm, bicep, tricep, quadricep along with other slashes, stabs and strikes with the knife is IMHO a viable training method in preparation for ending a knife attack in the shortest amount of time while the bottomline is you take the attack to the target that is most available at that instant in time.

[Michael Janich]

Once again, thanks to everyone for a cool thread.

While I appreciate the significance of the quote from Carl Cestari and the spirit behind it, my primary concern is self-protection. I understand and accept that real fights are 90% mindset and 10% technique; but take a closer look at this excerpt:

[Begin quote] NOTHING is going to stand in your way. NOTHING! You are going to
DESTROY whatever DOES attempt to thwart your murderous assault. You
will attack repeatedly with ALL the strength, speed, and brutality you
are capable of. And THAT will be heightened even MORE by rage and
adrenalin.

You KNOW that you MUST get this over with QUICKLY. Your attack will be
a frenzy of hate, rage and murderous INTENT.

You WON'T "feint" with your blade, you WON'T "spar" with your blade,
you WON'T "half-step" with your blade.

You WILL attack with brutal and ruthless rage. You WILL punch, kick,
bite, gouge, butt, and do ANY and EVERYTHING that will accomplish you
GOAL in as ferocious a manner as inhumanly possible.

Unless YOU are killed outright, NO injury will dissuade you from
KILLING your mark. In FACT, anything LESS than your death, will ONLY
add MORE FUEL to YOUR FIRE. NOTHING, short of your immediate demise
CAN stop you. Rage, hate, murderous intent and adrenalin are fueling
you to an almost superhuman state of FRENZY and FEROCITY!

Even when your man goes down, and DOWN you are determined to put him,
YOU still continue the assault. You stab and stab and stab. You kick
and stomp OVER and OVER and OVER again.

You DON'T even begin to "disengage" until your "blood" lust has been
quenched, and your mark taken off the count. [End quote]

Note the underlined portions -- not the kind of stuff I'd want to go on record with if I was trying to justify ANY kind of action taken in self-defense.

As Mike Cook pointed out, in my training we do analyze videos of actual knife attacks, both as a reality check for counter-knife tactics and as a means of determining the effectiveness of knives as a means of stopping an attack. My favorite is a stabbing in a bar in LA where a guy gets stuck in the neck on the first shot, severing his carotid artery. He is then stabbed at least 20 more times in the torso. He still stays upright and mobile for a full 45 seconds before collapsing.

Another favorite was a legal case for which I served as an expert consultant. The defender used a full-sized fixed blade to stab and slash his attacker more than 40 times, primarily in the torso and neck. The fight still lasted several minutes.

Neither of those qualify as effective stopping power in my book.

I recently had the opportunity to work with a Denver-area police officer who has done extensive research into knife wounds and the effects of exsanguination. Based on scientific data from medical examiners, he quantified the amount of blood that actually passes through the major arteries of the body and related it to the amount of blood loss necessary to produce shock, unconsciousness, and death. He not only determined that Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death" is B.S., he established that, short of severing the aorta, nothing that you do to punch holes in someone is guaranteed to make them stop in less than 30 seconds. That's a long time in a fight.

Structural stopping/biomechanical cutting does not require surgical precision as some folks claimed. When you consider that the entire arm and the lower thigh are both valid stopping targets, the surface area they offer is considerable. When you consider the fact that your attacker will be extending these targets toward you as he attacks, your job gets even easier.

But let's say you don't believe in that at all. As Joe T. rightfully points out, Filipino martial arts styles include both structural stopping/biomechanical cutting and tactics that bypass the limbs to go for shots that are more likely to be lethal. However, even the latter approach requires some kind of technique to control the attacker's weapon-wielding limb while you attack his body. Otherwise, the best you can hope for is a mutual slaying.

Just because you don't believe in structural stopping doesn't mean that going apeshit with a knife is a better solution, regardless of how cool some people try to make it sound.

Stay safe,

[ghostrider]

This is such a great thread. I haven't chimed in because it really "isn't my area", but I have been listening to what everyone has said. I think Irish Lager should be commended for bringing us this thread. He initially pulled it, then later re-submitted it, and I for one am glad he did. Thanks J., and all who have contributed. Keep it up, I'm still reading.

[argyll]

Once again, thanks to everyone for a cool thread.

While I appreciate the significance of the quote from Carl Cestari and the spirit behind it, my primary concern is self-protection . . . snip . . .

Note the underlined portions -- not the kind of stuff I'd want to go on record with if I was trying to justify ANY kind of action taken in self-defense.

. . . snip . . .

Just because you don't believe in structural stopping doesn't mean that going apeshit with a knife is a better solution, regardless of how cool some people try to make it sound.

Greetings Mike,

As always its great to have your valuable input on this forum. I can't speak for Carl, indeed I've never met him, but I think his main point is that if you're facing a blade wielding assailant who is out to kill you, its not going to be like it is in some martial arts classes, where a training partner makes a few tentative slashes or thrusts, and you perform a neat counter, be it empty handed or with a blade.

So in this particular essay at least, I don't think he was advocating self defense with a blade be done with murderous intent. (Having seen some of his empty hand videos, however, I think its fair to say that he does believe that a good offense is the best, or maybe even only defense.)

Thanks for all the updated info the real world effects of edged weapons. I always learn something from your posts.

Best regards,

Argyll

[Joe Talmadge]

Mike, always enjoy your clear-headed read on things!

Some important points:

Once again, thanks to everyone for a cool thread.

While I appreciate the significance of the quote from Carl Cestari and the spirit behind it, my primary concern is self-protection. I understand and accept that real fights are 90% mindset and 10% technique]

One of the most important sentences in that quote from Cestari:

Let us assume the "role" of the attacker, instead of the "defender".

Cestari's treatise is written from the point of view of the bad guy. I would argue that he's probably correctly captured it. He's not arguing explicitly that you have to become a murdering lunatic yourself, but asking:

Are you REALLY preparing to DEAL with THAT?

I think what makes the Cestari quote so clarifying for me is that it helps me re-focus on what a real knife assault would be like. Very unlikely he's standing 3 feet away letting me snipe at his hands; very likely his mindset is exactly like Cestari described. In other words, Knife dueling helps with attributes, but drills where the guy playing the bad guy is crashing in with power and intent are more realistic. My experience in my short time training in this is that once the crashing in starts -- even in knife duels, much less combative drills -- the defender's accuracy goes out the window, and there's an almost primal instinct to thrust that's very difficult to control. I note that my various sparring partners, many of whom like slashing and are plenty experienced, end up thrusting while in close range.

Which isn't to argue with your point that wildly flailing around isn't the answer either...

Joe

[Dr. Snubnose]

I have also found what Joe T. says to be very true....the closer one's opponent gets the more likely chances are that you will begin thrusting....and it does seem somewhat instinctual...I can appreciate the Bio-Mechanical techniques at the distancing they can be effective, and I will use them at that distance...but when my opponent rushes in I can't help myself...I have to begin thrusting...I don't think it's a bad thing either...it is my experience that It can be most effective. Pikal Grip and other FMA techniques lend themselves quite well to such tactics....Doc :D

[2edgesword]

"Very unlikely he's standing 3 feet away letting me snipe at his hands; very likely his mindset is exactly like Cestari described."

That 3 feet can make all the difference in the world with respect to what options you have available to you in an attack. It also is the reason situational awareness is a critical key in self-defense. I don't care what type of training you have it takes a certain amount of time to go from condition white to red and it's usually a longer period of time then it takes for an attacker to negotiate that three feet. (excuse me for stating what is obvious to most of you)

Most of the altercations I've been involved in have been preceded by some type of verbal or physical signals that the attack is coming. It's during that period of time when you should be getting yourself positioned (physically and mentally) in preparation for what may be coming. If you stand there like a dunce not doing anything to prepare for what might be coming (something as subtle as shifting body weight, turning 45°, getting your hands out of your pocket, etc.) you're asking to be pummeled.

Again, getting sucker punched out of nowhere is possible, especially in a prison dorm environment where you've got inmates all around you. Actually calling it a sucker punch in that situation isn't justified. You've only got two eyes and in that type of environment you're seriously outnumbered.

[Michael Janich]

Thanks, Joe, for keeping the perspective of Carl's comments clear. In the overall context of his comments, I stand corrected. However, there are still a lot of folks who embrace that approach and try to use it as a basis for righteous self-defense. The intent of my excerpts was to dissuade good people from doing that. Again, thanks for setting me straight.

One thing I would like to add is that biomechanical cutting is NOT limited to standing at a distance and sniping at an attacker. Many of the techniques in the system I teach involve achieving some kind of control over the attacker's weapon-wielding limb to create an opening for a pressure cut -- or a thrust and cut -- to biomechanical targets. Although we practice flow drills, we also incorporate hardcore "crash, bash, and slash" into our training as well.

Seeing videos and researching incidents in which people were actually stabbed repeatedly and DID NOT STOP is what made me look for a better solution. Researching anatomy and validating biomechanical cutting by discussing it at length with paramedics, doctors, orthopedic surgeons, physical therapists, and people who have suffered biomechanical injuries has given me an even better feeling about the scientific validity of my approach.

No matter what tactics you choose, understanding how to really STOP someone with a knife is the key to keeping you safe. If they ultimately die, but manage to kill or cripple you before they do, that's not good enough.

Stay safe,

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: No self-protection system is complete if it doesn't address the question of an attacker "crashing the lines". The answer, of course, is footwork. :spyder:

[Dr. Snubnose]

BioMechanical cutting can be and is very effective in my opinion when using short bladed knives...as far as the stab goes...the blade size seems to make a big difference...I knew an individual who took over 45 stabs in the neck, head/face area and back and survived to tell her story... her attacker was using a folder with a 2 3/4" blade...doctors at the time reported that if a 4-6" blade had been used there would have been a different result in the outcome...so one must understand there is never one right solution to every problem and there are a lot of letters between A and Z...many other things need to be considered before one decides which methods one will use to defend him/her self when the need arises, whichever you choose be assured that practice practice and more practice is the main key here...slipping a knife into you pocket and never training with it is the same as putting a gun in your dresser draw and never taking it to the range...both will give you a false sense of security...Doc :D

[DAYWALKER]

BioMechanical cutting can be and is very effective in my opinion when using short bladed knives...as far as the stab goes...the blade size seems to make a big difference...I knew an individual who took over 45 stabs in the neck, head/face area and back and survived to tell her story... her attacker was using a folder with a 2 3/4" blade...doctors at the time reported that if a 4-6" blade had been used there would have been a different result in the outcome...so one must understand there is never one right solution to every problem and there are a lot of letters between A and Z...many other things need to be considered before one decides which methods one will use to defend him/her self when the need arises, whichever you choose be assured that practice practice and more practice is the main key here...slipping a knife into you pocket and never training with it is the same as putting a gun in your dresser draw and never taking it to the range...both will give you a false sense of security...Doc :D

Aloha Doc,

My friend...you do not know how many staff members I work with do just that: NOTHING. I mean, I have addressed this before, but they have an arsenal and several gunsafes, knives galore...but do they train? NOPE. They think that just by having the latest gun or a buncha knives they'll be ready for "it" should it come.
*Gimme a friggin' break*!!! :mad:

As you have stated accurately, practice is the key. If I practice with my old trusty rusty M590A and I meet up with some dude with a Benelli Semi Auto who doesn't train in cornering, cover, shooting from all positions, reloading, etc. and just keeps it in his safe "for that day", I *will* kick his arse! :mad:

I don't care what latest assited opener one of "these types" carry. If they don't train in drawing under pressure, on the ground, securing upon draw, whatever, I *will* kick his arse! :mad:

Sorry for the "tone" here...I been around folks like this *TOO* long and they can be dangerous to not only themsleves, but to the innocent. Also, it gets old hearing all their BS stories of what they " would or could do". :mad:

God bless :cool:

*breath in....breath out......breath in...breath out...... :o

[Michael Cook]

Also, it gets old hearing all their BS stories of what they " would or could do". :mad:

:spyder: My favorite BS line is "I'd just take that knife away and kick their arse!" :rolleyes: Yeah, show me... :spyder:

[DAYWALKER]

:spyder: My favorite BS line is "I'd just take that knife away and kick their arse!" :rolleyes: Yeah, show me... :spyder:

Aloha michael...

I have heard THAT one. The current one here is, "Brah, they wouldn't even have a chance to do that to me." OR "Good! Bring a knife. I'll bring my gun!"

Cripes...it is sad actually...

One guy I know was so sure he could do the elbow break on an extended punch...I mean, he was SUPER sure. Well, I told him to try it on me, and he was reluctant at first, as he did not want to break my arm, so i told him to hit behind my elbow then. (I never under-estimate no one, so just in case he could do it, I didn't want my arm broken either! :rolleyes: )

I ask him, which hand? He says any one. Ready????????

IN and OUT. He grazed my arm with one hand on my retraction. After a few tries, he's all like, "Oh, but that's 'cause you're fast...any "normal" (?) guy, I'd bust his arm big time." :eek: :eek: :eek: I believe he's trained too long with "punch and freeze" partners...

God bless :cool:

[Michael Cook]

IN and OUT. He grazed my arm with one hand on my retraction. After a few tries, he's all like, "Oh, but that's 'cause you're fast...any "normal" (?) guy, I'd bust his arm big time." :eek: :eek: :eek: I believe he's trained too long with "punch and freeze" partners...

God bless :cool:

:spyder: In Aikido we call that the "Uke effect" I know many martial artists who have many false hopes of doing silly things in the moment of attack, many things involving very fine and precise motor functions. I hope they never get attacked. Of course I hope I never get attacked :spyder:

[Dr. Snubnose]

I have been attacked one too many times (guess cause of my small structure I look like easy prey)...Too many Martial Artists look for that one right perfect technique that can be applied to every situation out there...without years of training...that technique just doesn't exist...You need a whole tool box worth of tools, It was the Psychologist Abe Maslow who said, "If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem begins to look like a Nail"....Doc :D

[Irish Lager]

Again, some interesting points made by all, its amazing how much information is right in front of you, and how you would never know unless someone opened their mouth.
Thanks again for all the advise
J

[Joe Talmadge]

:spyder: No self-protection system is complete if it doesn't address the question of an attacker "crashing the lines". The answer, of course, is footwork. :spyder:

Taking us off topic a bit, for me personally, footwork isn't the answer to this particular problem. Or at least, not the primary answer. If someone is crashing in on me from a long range, and they telegraph it, then yeah, easy enough to zone out. But start the action a little closer (more realistically) and make the crash a bit more explosive, and for me, at least, footwork is too slow. When it's coming in like this, I block or parry the primary attack (if he gets off first) and then follow the strategy that has worked for me against bigger guys in general, which is, get his face pointed at the ceiling. In this case, once I block the primary attack I try to really explode a full-power thrust to his face. Forget what the stab would do -- the transfer of kinetic energy tilts his head up, and this usually stalls or slows the forward drive for a tiny slice of time. Then, if appropriate, I zone out and/or counter.

I started working this out against a big guy who was just getting in on me too hard. Often I had no time to zone at all, and if I did, he just followed me and "killed" me on the next strike. Sometimes he hit so hard I had to block the initial strike with both arms, but a split second later comes the explosive counter-stab to the head and the moment I need. Of course, now he's gotten nailed in the face enough that he doesn't crash in anymore, so I have to keep rotating to new big partners. Anyway, in some ways this is just an extension of what I've found to work against big guys with empty hands -- zone if you can, but explosively stall his forward drive (and best way is to snap his head back somehow) if you can't.

Joe

[ghostrider]

Taking us off topic a bit, for me personally, footwork isn't the answer to this particular problem. Or at least, not the primary answer. If someone is crashing in on me from a long range, and they telegraph it, then yeah, easy enough to zone out. But start the action a little closer (more realistically) and make the crash a bit more explosive, and for me, at least, footwork is too slow. When it's coming in like this, I block or parry the primary attack (if he gets off first) and then follow the strategy that has worked for me against bigger guys in general, which is, get his face pointed at the ceiling. In this case, once I block the primary attack I try to really explode a full-power thrust to his face. Forget what the stab would do -- the transfer of kinetic energy tilts his head up, and this usually stalls or slows the forward drive for a tiny slice of time. Then, if appropriate, I zone out and/or counter.

I started working this out against a big guy who was just getting in on me too hard. Often I had no time to zone at all, and if I did, he just followed me and "killed" me on the next strike. Sometimes he hit so hard I had to block the initial strike with both arms, but a split second later comes the explosive counter-stab to the head and the moment I need. Of course, now he's gotten nailed in the face enough that he doesn't crash in anymore, so I have to keep rotating to new big partners. Anyway, in some ways this is just an extension of what I've found to work against big guys with empty hands -- zone if you can, but explosively stall his forward drive (and best way is to snap his head back somehow) if you can't.

Joe

Interesting. While SD is not exactly my area of expertise, I have learned that it is often the case that if you control your opponents head or hips, you do, to a certain extent, control thier body.

[2edgesword]

JOeT

Good point regarding the head. Where the head goes the body follows. Control the head and you've got a fair amount of control over the body.

If you can move, great. If you can get off that blast to the head, great. If you make that strike and add some movement in the process even better.

The bottomline is the more time you have to react the better. If all the time you have to react is the two tenths of a second just before that punch hits you on the chin your options and opportunities for realizing a successful outcome are severely diminished.

This is self-defense 101 and one of the first things I drill into my students. If you let someone that is displaying an aggressive attitude get inside your personal space (this isn't address at the CO's that are surround by inmates in a dorm) you deserve what you get if they crash in on you and the next thing you remember is waking up in the hospital.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: It's interesting how differant the various perspectives are around here.
I prefer Koshi nage throws over projection throws. Hip throws tend to work better when the attacker is rushing in with powerful momentum. To me it is a great gift when an attacker charges full bore.
I have a hard time describing technique based situations such as "if he does this then I do this and if he does this then I counter with this and then do that." To me this kind of thinking (which can lead to the trap of the kata) never works since the reality of the combative moment never jives with my shiny plan.
I try to train towards internalizing principles more than memorizing techniques.
Of course, that's what the dojo is for :spyder: