4 more years of "dubya"

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AllenETreat
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Vote or shut up

Postby AllenETreat » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:03 am

So, good forum-ites, if i don't vote, my opinion doesn't count?

Some of you obviously don't remember the fight Japan & Germany
gave us in the seond world war when we invaded their countries
( justified or not ) Hell, we hadda use the a-bomb on the Japs!

If this country were invaded, we'd be fighting as hard as the Iraqi's
to protect our backyard.

A soldier interviewed on ABC World News put it best :

"Whoever get's elected this war needs to end now"

We aren't even sufficently equipped & reservists are going without pay.

This is not the way to win a war - BTW - anyone have any
idea when it'll end?

I'm not going to waste any more time trying to present the rationale
General William Tecumseh Sherman did : "War is Hell" because it'll
be lost on "the Bu$h youth"

And while yer all at it, instead of cards, prayers & other non-sense, visit
your local VA and ask the returning soldiers that came back missing pieces
think of the war in Iraq - and the same thing happened in Viet Nam.

Personally I don't see what al qaieda's attack on the WTC & Iraq have to
do with each other - may as well ask the Pres.

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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Postby thombrogan » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:50 am

Allen's certainly entitled to complain. He's doing it right now. :)
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Luvbug
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Postby Luvbug » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:04 am

AllenETreat wrote:Personally I don't see what al qaieda's attack on the WTC & Iraq have to do with each other - may as well ask the Pres.
There is little or no proven connection.

The US invasion of Iraq has less to do with Al-Qaeda than it does with the "War on Terror". Iraq is strategically vital in the WOT. By invading and overthrowing Saddam's government, the US can position materiale in the heart of the Middle East. This provides for an optimum staging base for any further military action that may take place in the Middle East.

The cultural war of Western democracy versus Islamic Wahhabism is central to the WOT. If, as an added benefit, democracy can take root in the heart of the Middle East, it would be tantamount to a decisive battleground victory in the cultural war.

Of course, one could also argue that Saddam and French President Jacques Chirac's desire to change the standard of oil trading in US dollars to Euros. This argument places a premium on the "follow the money" principle, which I find to be very useful in answering many "why did they do that?" questions.

Just my 2 cents.

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Postby Matt Studabaker » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:25 am

Originally posted by OutofGum
I can comment for sure on Bush's past as he admitted that he used cocaine during college.


Lol, OutofGum, I concede on this point.

Originally posted by OutofGum
Drinking socially (even binging on occasion) is quite different from alcoholism.


I must concede on this as well, but is there verification that Bush was indeed an alcoholic?

Good discussion everyone.

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king-of-mars
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Postby king-of-mars » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:02 am

History does seem to repeat itself, going around imposing your will on others who don't think alike or worship the same God kind of reeks of the 11th Century Crusades, it didn't work then and it won't work now.

There will never be an end to the War on Terror if everyone goes around killing each other for their beliefs over the beliefs of other cultures. No one wins in an argument about religion or politics.

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hrdwrguy
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Postby hrdwrguy » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:08 pm

I would agree that the war was planned poorly. However that does not by itself mean that the results that can be achieved are somehow deminished. I was never completely sure about wmds argument at the time it was bought out it seem to me atleast to be the wrong argument to use, but there was no reason to think they weren't or are not there. The arguments that try to say the weapons were never there should look to Iraqs recent history and explain why a change could have taken place, particularly with the corruption of the oil for food program inside the un.

The argument that should have been used was simply that Saddam is bad, has had his chance and warnings and has not taken up his end of the bargain (neither did some of our 'allies' apparently but I won't go down that road). Iraq could be a better, a safer, a free place, and it is undeniable that its peole wanted the chance to have that. We could put an end to torture and rape rooms, butchery and a big threat to stability in the middle east. Without him in power we could scale back our military resources in the area (patroling the no-fly zone etc...) and the spending and wear and tear on our troops and friends in the area that went along with it.

I believe this war is just on the grounds that the middle east wil be a better place by a long shot without Saddam, that the possability of a democracy in the heart of the mid east is too good to pass up, that the people of Iraq under Saddam had no future but now have the oppurtunity to work to build themselves one. My friends (just two of them) who have come back from tours there have said in a nut shell: The Iraqi people thank us for coming, that we shouldn't stay, but we shouldn't leave just yet either.

I'll take their word for it.

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Postby Sword and Shield » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:47 pm

AllenETreat wrote:So, good forum-ites, if i don't vote, my opinion doesn't count?
In short, yes. Either play a role in choosing your leader and your nation's course of action, or shut up when things don't go your way.
I'm not going to waste any more time trying to present the rationale
General William Tecumseh Sherman did : "War is Hell" because it'll
be lost on "the Bu$h youth"
"Bu$h youth"? Pardon me? What makes you think that we can't comprehend that war is a negative? Let me tell you a story. Last summer, when I was visiting my grandparents, I happened upon this odd dagger in the old cedar chest. Looked like blood on the blade. It was. My great-uncle Delmar took that knife from a German and killed him with it, back in '45. Delmar caught a round in the knee that day, walked with crutches until the day he died. Don't even think that we can't know war's cost.

Yeah, war is hell. However, as R. E. Lee once said, "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." War isn't like the movies. The blond-haired All-American sometimes dies. The J.D. from the old neighborhood sometimes does, too. The line between good and evil is very thin.
I am a man. But I can change. If I have to. I guess...-- The Man's Prayer, Possum Lodge #11.

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Postby Civilian » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:11 pm

Kerry would have been great for this country, for one day then the next day when he changed his mind he would've been horrible. And who knows after that not even him!
I have a friend flying F-14's over there right know. He sent me an email a couple of weeks ago about buying a rug. The guy was very nice, taking him to his wherehouse and his brothers store to find the right rug. The Iraqi people deffinatly appreaciate our troops.
MAT :spyder: TER
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spyderknut
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Tired of the whining!

Postby spyderknut » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:41 pm

Enough already. Kerry LOST. The majority voted for Bush and he is OUR president for the next four years. To those of you who are upset with Bush's victory: PLEASE get a life! If you feel you need to, get active and fight for what you believe in. Protest your heart out. Support your candidate of choice next time with your money, labor or word of mouth. Have at it.

Who will the DNC offer up next? Kerry again? Hillary? Dean? If you believe they will make this country better for all of us, AT LEAST vote for your choice! If you don't the rest of us will be glad to make your mind up for you :p . Bush will not be back to run for a 3rd term so we'll have to wait to see who the republicans can come up with for '08. In the meantime go back to your life and enjoy it the best you can. Listen to Al Franken (is he still on the air even?). Buy Bruce Springstein CDs. Eat lots of Heinz catsup. Better yet, grow up.

I'll bet I'm not the only one tired of the sniveling. At least we all agree on one thing: :spyder: :)

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garrett
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Well as we yell at each other

Postby garrett » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:18 pm

I will digress from my fight with Allen by commenting on some of the things I have read since my last post.

1. This war was not well thought out. I disagree. The war was very well thought out. The operations following the war were not.

2. Not enough equipment and gear, and reservists without pay. I don’t know why reservists aren't being paid, but I am sure it was a mistake at some disbursing office that forgot to note these service members were deployed.

Lets talk about gear. I red and hear so much about body armor and armored HUMVEE's and I don’t think the whole story is out there. The plates that go in our body armor are available, just not in the exact numbers we would like. The body armor that we use is relatively new, as are the plates that go in them. It takes two plates to complete the system, and most of the Marines I know that went to Iraq had at least one, if not two. Every Marine I see going to Iraq or Afghanistan has always recieved two plates for his vest. I knw there are service members over there who dont have them, but I would wager there are people over ther who have them, that dont really need them, i.e. camp personel who are nt in convoys etc.

I also read about all these servicemen who go over having to buy their own gear. HELL YES they do. I barely use the gear I am issued, because it doesn’t do what I personally need it to do. So I bring my own. Almost every person I talk to, regardless of service, does the same thing. This has gone on for years. This is not new. And you can thank the Clinton administration for strapping us for cash so we couldn’t buy the gear we need now.

Armored Humvees? I heard Kerry mention this during the last debate. Until now, there really wasn’t a need for armored humvees. We are getting as many as we can right now. We didn’t need them during Desert Storm, but now we do, so we are jumping thru our A$$ to get them. GIVE THE MILITARY THEM MONEY IT NEEDS TO WIN WARS INSTEAD OF CUTTING OUR BUDGETS!!!!

War is hell, and for everyone service member that talks out against it, there are about five who would talk about how they don’t want to leave until the jobs done, or who are trying to get over there to do their part.

The media, controlled by the left, doesn’t tell you about the Iraqis who want us over there, who are happy about out being there. I hear stories all the time about Iraqs who are happy to see us there, putting a stop to the old regime and its EVIL ways. You wont hear about those on Comrade Turners news agencies.

and I agree with Spydernut, its over. Bush won. Deal with it. Why is it that when the Dems lose, they cry? Did Bush Sr and the RNC cry about Clinton winning? no. Sorry we are still in charge, so next time, just do yourself the favor and exercise your right to make a change.

Not really on the original subject, just my two cents

Garrett

Have a nice weekend!!!
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Postby Concord_Bob » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:56 pm

king-of-mars wrote:History does seem to repeat itself, going around imposing your will on others who don't think alike or worship the same God kind of reeks of the 11th Century Crusades, it didn't work then and it won't work now.
Actualy the Crusades did work. They were started by Muslum s invading Europe. The Crusaders removed them.

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king-of-mars
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Postby king-of-mars » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:21 am

Here's a link you might be interested in if you want to learn about the Crusades.

The Crusades

dyad
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Postby dyad » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:00 pm

AllenETreat....You got my vote.
" Out the Gate in 08 ".

Put your sign in my yard anytime !!!

Whoever controls Iraq..controls the Oil !!!
Dyad

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Postby dyad » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:19 pm

1. This war was not well thought out. I disagree. The war was very well thought out. The operations following the war were not.garret
After I watched the "Rumsfield Wars" on Frontline..the war was not well thought out.
Correct ..."Rumsfield had no exit plans".
And you can thank the Clinton administration for strapping us for cash so we couldn’t buy the gear we need now.garret
"Total agreement.This is what happens when we have iept politicians w/o military experience making Military Decisions !"

"Politicians do what's best for politicians !!!"
BTW I'd still vote for ya AllenETreat...!! vbg.
Dyad

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AllenETreat
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The only thing I gotta say is...

Postby AllenETreat » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:55 pm

...let's see if this "war" has ended in four years ( un-likely - the mideast
is BIG )

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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java
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In case of battle plan failure, exits are not clearly marked.

Postby java » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:27 pm

dyad wrote:After I watched the "Rumsfield Wars" on Frontline..the war was not well thought out.
Correct ..."Rumsfield had no exit plans"
What Secretary of Defense, Secretary of War, or President ever really has??? Want to read some scary crap pick up a copy of Richard Frank's Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire. How does 1,000,000 additional American casualties to take the Japanese mainland sound. Our intelligence seriously underestimated the Japanese defensive forces on the southern island of Kyushu where the intial thrust of Operation Olympic was to begin. But that was the plan. No exit paln there either.

We can all arm-chair QB and point fingers - it makes for good political ad hominim attacks on the incumbent. The truth is, anyone in Rumsfields, Cheney's or GWB's poistion could be accused of the same thing. War is fluid and changing. Threats adapt. We adapt. With all this adapting and changing maybe the plans are always changing, eh? Perhaps it is also best to understand that the exit plan is like the battle plan - one of the first casualties of war.

Allen, my friend,
I love ya like a brother but ya sure lost points on the sincerity and believability scale when you failed to vote. As an old dogfaced 11-Bravo, you above all should know how much precious blood has flowed for that right. Man you can be a cynical and cantankerous ol' geezer sometimes. ;)
When I said that mercy stood
Within the border of the wood
I meant the lenient beast with claws
And bloody swift dispatching jaws.


Death Before Decaf!
!
:spyder:

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Mancer
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Postby Mancer » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:48 pm

You can bee from the USA, South Africa or hell, lets be blunt.
You can elect who you want, I really doubt your life is going to be made any easier.
This is the age of greed, there are benefits of been the "most powerful man on earth" dont you know.
We are mear ants to be stepped on, thats the way goverment works.
Is it not strange that people that have so much, are the ones always caught out doing illegal activities to better their own lifestyle.
What about the poor shmuck working his *** off everyday, who has enough moral values not to steep to the rank of a goverment official.

Lets be straight, its not about the oil, its not about the welfare of your great country....Its all about the money.
After all, what talks and what walks?

Cheers

Sheldon
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum

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AllenETreat
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Out go da' lights!

Postby AllenETreat » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:55 pm

Mancer wrote:You can bee from the USA, South Africa or hell, lets be blunt.
You can elect who you want, I really doubt your life is going to be made any easier.
This is the age of greed, there are benefits of been the "most powerful man on earth" dont you know.
We are mear ants to be stepped on, thats the way goverment works.
Is it not strange that people that have so much, are the ones always caught out doing illegal activities to better their own lifestyle.
What about the poor shmuck working his *** off everyday, who has enough moral values not to steep to the rank of a goverment official.

Lets be straight, its not about the oil, its not about the welfare of your great country....Its all about the money.
After all, what talks and what walks?

Cheers

Sheldon
MaNcEr -

Let's kick @$$ & chew bubble gum! **** straight! It doesn't mean a ****
thing lately what schmuck sit's in the White House ( actually I believe the
"music died" when Abe Lincoln took that shot to the head :( ) Andrew Jackson was more of a
"warrior's warrior" when it came to being pulled off
his would-be assassin by all those senators! Just think - these shmoes
of now-a-days can zap out civilization with the push of a button! ( nuclear,
not nooculer, as the schrub say's - capability by the U.S. alone is
some frightening firepower :eek: )

BANG! Nobody to "talk" or "debate" about anything!

AET
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All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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sod
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Postby sod » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:17 pm

AET, you must not believe in anything to strongly, or you would have gotten off the couch to post a ballot.

No whining from non voters!!!

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AllenETreat
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Lissen sodbuster...

Postby AllenETreat » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:12 pm

Voting in the country is a right, but it's also an option -
this is not some dictatorship-of-the-proletariat that make's voting
a must. If you ask me, I think both parties pushed to get
the usually desulatory voting populace out there...and suceeded.

AFAIC, the last eligible candidate was George Bu$h, Sr. - he knew
better than to try and conquer any country the had the backing
of other's ( very few mideast state's condone the U.S. occupation of
Iraq ) - and at least extended the un-employment for worker's to 55wks
back when I was on it in 91'. Did we elect him again? No, "Slick Willie"
Clinton got it, IMO, because of his age and not experience in politics.

Never trust anyone under 60. ;)

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence


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