4 more years of "dubya"

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AllenETreat
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4 more years of "dubya"

Postby AllenETreat » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:56 am

Ah, well, we can't be winners all the time, can we?

After all, he is the Commander-in-Chief, who, all you
un-informed voters hails from Massachuesetts, the "family" settled
in Greenwich, CT. More a "Connecitcut Yankee" than a good-ol-American
"heartlander" if ya' ask me!

But I don't think anyone could've gotten this Iraq mess straightened
out, do you?

I myself never voted ( no, once in the 2000 vote when dubya ran ) as,
dear citizenry, when I worked ( 13yrs - not much ) I didn't notice any
changes in taxes, no better lifestyle, just a 40hr a week "grind". :(

Fact is, the vote benefit's the "downtrodden" and very wealthy no matter
who get's in!

Ask yourself the "Reagan question" : Are you any better now than you were
four years ago?

Probably not.

FDR where are you now when we need a real leader?

I think I'll join the Air National Guard & become president!

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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Ray.Hood
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Sorry you're unhappy.

Postby Ray.Hood » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:39 am

Dubya as you call him, hmm. He brought our country out of the grip of a fear of terror, you weren't here?No, Iraq was not about oil, terror maybe.
John Kerry, weiner. Point-blank. There is a monument to Kerry in N. Vietnam!!!
Sorry you're unhappy, but a lot of us are. :D

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Ray.Hood
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Sorry you're unhappy.

Postby Ray.Hood » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:40 am

Dubya as you call him, hmm. He brought our country out of the grip of a fear of terror, you weren't here?No, Iraq was not about oil, terror maybe.
John Kerry, weiner. Point-blank. There is a monument to Kerry in N. Vietnam!!!
Sorry you're unhappy, but a lot of us are happy with our choice. :D

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AllenETreat
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Politics 101

Postby AllenETreat » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:34 pm

Ray.Hood -

Ever hear of the Carlise group? How about Halliburton?
And wasn't OBL supposed to be in Afghanistan?

Quite frankly, neither was much of a choice...

How about George H.W. Bush? He knew enough not to invade
a country that we couldn't possibly win, and we made fun of him for
vomiting at a Japanese banquet...

...and then elected "Slick Willie"

And the worst part, "Slick Willie" lasted two terms!

How soon we forget!

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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garrett
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Postby garrett » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:26 pm

You can't compare President Bush to Clinton. One was an adulterer and liar, the other led this country during one of its most trying times. How can you complain if you don’t vote? That’s just plain hypocritical. If you at least voted, you would have something to complain about.

I have a bunch of friends, both in the military and out, who voted for Kerry. I don't agree with them, but at least they voted. They made an attempt to exact a change. You yourself said that you don’t like Bush, but you didn’t vote. I don’t get it.

Iraq may be a difficult time for the USA, but no one cried when we invaded Afghanistan! And if you even try to tell me that the world would be better off with Saddam where he was, then you need to look at the history of appeasement during WW2, and tell me in Germany would be better off if no one had stopped Hitler. And yes, they are the same thing in the big picture, so please don’t get wrapped up in the smaller details that make Iraq unique.

Haliburton and the rest of the contractors in Iraq? Well the reigning regime ALWAYS gives kick backs to its friends, look at all the presidential pardons Clinton signed on his way out the door.

Are we better off then we were fours yours ago? I am. Antiquated tax laws that took money from me for being married are modified, employment is UP overall and the country is safer than it has been in a long time.

Just my two cents
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Ray.Hood
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Hooyah Gunny!

Postby Ray.Hood » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:40 pm

Outstanding debate gentleman. To each his or her own. we'll have to continue this tomorrow. Drive on Mr. Garret, you have my respect as a gentleman and a soldier.

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Postby OutofGum » Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:54 pm

garrett wrote:You can't compare President Bush to Clinton. One was an adulterer and liar, the other led this country during one of its most trying times. How can you complain if you don’t vote? That’s just plain hypocritical. If you at least voted, you would have something to complain about.

I have a bunch of friends, both in the military and out, who voted for Kerry. I don't agree with them, but at least they voted. They made an attempt to exact a change. You yourself said that you don’t like Bush, but you didn’t vote. I don’t get it.

Iraq may be a difficult time for the USA, but no one cried when we invaded Afghanistan! And if you even try to tell me that the world would be better off with Saddam where he was, then you need to look at the history of appeasement during WW2, and tell me in Germany would be better off if no one had stopped Hitler. And yes, they are the same thing in the big picture, so please don’t get wrapped up in the smaller details that make Iraq unique.

Haliburton and the rest of the contractors in Iraq? Well the reigning regime ALWAYS gives kick backs to its friends, look at all the presidential pardons Clinton signed on his way out the door.

Are we better off then we were fours yours ago? I am. Antiquated tax laws that took money from me for being married are modified, employment is UP overall and the country is safer than it has been in a long time.

Just my two cents
I have to respond to that. Bush was a coke addict and an alcoholic. Not to mention a below average student with a suspicious national guard record.
Comparing Iraq to Germany is ridiculous. Germany was absorbing nations (Sudetenland) and it was allowed out of fear of war. At no time were concessions being made to Iraq out of fear they would strike out. There is no big picture that is the same, the situation is different on a fundamental level.
Employment is DOWN overall from where it was 4 years ago, and whether the country is safer or not is debatable.
To the pessimist the glass is half empty, to the optimist the glass is half full, to the engineer its twice as big as it needs to be.

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AllenETreat
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We do have an electoral college, BTW

Postby AllenETreat » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:38 pm

garret -

When I did vote ( in the 2000 election ) dubya won anyways -
did my vote count? I think the electoral colleges vote counted more.

I met alot of people who wanted Bu$h out this term and yet here he is ( again! )

I'm sorry, dubya will not out do his daddy.

Oh, did you hear the one how Joe Kennedy "bought" Illinois for his
son John Kennedy? When the presidency's up for sale we're like Rome
in the 3rd century ( Comodus was killed & the crown sold to the highest
bidder - forget that crap you saw in Gladiator )

AET
All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds, awake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it reality.

T.E. Lawrence

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Postby hrdwrguy » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:57 pm

I always cringe a bit at topics like these but I must give this forum credit for being as calm about these as it is. It is so tiring to read a violent argument between a couple of people on a forum who usually resort to name calling.
That said I would like to add my two cents :D . First if you don't vote you don't get to complain. I don't care if you think the system is unfair or if the vote always goes the say way, drag yourself out there and pull the lever, punch the card or whatever, it's no that hard and it does count at least a little. If you don't try, don't put out the effort to read a little on the issues and vote your opinion is worth nothing (since you don't vote).
Beyond that I always try to be careful of getting tunnel vision on issues, it doesn't always work but I make the effort and admit my failure at being perfect. For instance Haliburton may have screwed the pentagon on some contracts but they are the only people who do what they do, and they did the same work for the Clinton admin for very similar amounts of money on net. Tell me with a strait face that it didn't happen then or that the Dems would have made a stink to thier guy if it did.
My issue book covers both parties: I'm small business and a student, I like stem cell research and am pro-choice, I think the primary role of the Fed is security (I felt the ground shake and could smell the burned Pentagon for weeks after 9/11) and not social issues, I want my social security invested by me not paid out in a pyramid scheme.
Well sorry to ramble or rant there just my two cents (one vote) for what they are worth. Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers.

Mike

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garrett
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Postby garrett » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:35 pm

OutofGum wrote:I have to respond to that. Bush was a coke addict and an alcoholic. Not to mention a below average student with a suspicious national guard record.
And Kerry doesnt have a checkered past? Dont even get me started about HIS military career. Bush may have had some issues in the past, but who hasn't? Come on, show me a completely faultless person, and I will shake hands with Jesus himself.
OutofGum wrote:Comparing Iraq to Germany is ridiculous. Germany was absorbing nations (Sudetenland) and it was allowed out of fear of war. At no time were concessions being made to Iraq out of fear they would strike out. There is no big picture that is the same, the situation is different on a fundamental level.
And Saddam hasn't been appeased out of fear of looking bad in the world forum? Or out of fear of war with the Middle east? Iraq is a signatory on several treaties that outlaw the prodution, proliferation, and employment of Chemical Weapons, which, as you will remember he did on the Iranians and HIS OWN PEOPLE. What did the UN or the world do? NOTHING. Appeasement is appeasement.

He has blown off the world (the UN) since Desert Storm and no one hs done a thing to lift a finger. WMD aside, he was Iraq has been proven time and again to be a terrorist safe haven and training base. Remember Saddam's promise to pay the families of suicide bombers if they struck in Israel? How do you define striking out against the US or our allies? 9/11 reminds me of Pearl Harbor. What about the whole Oil for Food debacle?
OutofGum wrote:Employment is DOWN overall from where it was 4 years ago, and whether the country is safer or not is debatable.
Employment is not a function of the president in the first place, it is a function of the economy. And depending on what poll you read, and where the demographic was pulled for that poll, your statistics can be skewed. I wont fight you on that issue.

As far as the country being safe? Tell me how thats debatable. Terrorist cells and plots have been foiled and stopped sinec 9/11? I would agree that taking away knitting needles and the liberties taken by the TSA nazis are ridiculous.

Garrett
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Postby garrett » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:40 pm

AllenETreat wrote:garret -

When I did vote ( in the 2000 election ) dubya won anyways -
did my vote count? I think the electoral colleges vote counted more.

I met alot of people who wanted Bu$h out this term and yet here he is ( again! )

I'm sorry, dubya will not out do his daddy.

Oh, did you hear the one how Joe Kennedy "bought" Illinois for his
son John Kennedy? When the presidency's up for sale we're like Rome
in the 3rd century ( Comodus was killed & the crown sold to the highest
bidder - forget that crap you saw in Gladiator )

AET
I find it funny that people get so upset about George Bush. "I want him out of office." Why? Has he done such a horrible job? Has he personally reached down and affected your day-to-day life? He has mine, I can promise you that, and I am proud that he has.

You're right, the Electoral College does have more power. Blame the founding fathers on that one, but I as you know, that there are laws that govern how the Electoral College votes. And I know all about the conspiracy theories of the JFK election, so please tell me facts and I will do the same.

Who would you rather have in office? Kerry? Hillary? Nader? You know so many people who say they wanted Bush out, did they vote? How come when the Dem's lose the white house, they cry foul?

I am curious as to hear what you think could be done better, without getting emotional about Iraq or anyone's obvious hatred of the president.


Garrett
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Postby dantecubit » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:08 pm

Allen, glad there's SOMEONE here who agrees with me. W= pawn + murderer

100,000 dead Iraqis (in just this most recent war) for what? Freedom? I'm sorry to say it, but the Iraqi "insurgents" (really patriots if you think about it) have every right to be killing Marines. The war is illegal. The US has invaded a country in violation of international law. That's not to say I support killing Marines, I don't think Iraqis or Americans should have to die, and that is why the Iraq war strikes me as unjust. Bringing Iraqis freedom (not ridding them of WMDs or making America safer, those were LAST week's justifications) by killing thousands of them?

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Postby Spidernoir » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:26 pm

garrett wrote:You can't compare President Bush to Clinton. One was an adulterer and liar, the other led this country during one of its most trying times. How can you complain if you don’t vote? That’s just plain hypocritical. If you at least voted, you would have something to complain about.

I have a bunch of friends, both in the military and out, who voted for Kerry. I don't agree with them, but at least they voted. They made an attempt to exact a change. You yourself said that you don’t like Bush, but you didn’t vote. I don’t get it.

Iraq may be a difficult time for the USA, but no one cried when we invaded Afghanistan! And if you even try to tell me that the world would be better off with Saddam where he was, then you need to look at the history of appeasement during WW2, and tell me in Germany would be better off if no one had stopped Hitler. And yes, they are the same thing in the big picture, so please don’t get wrapped up in the smaller details that make Iraq unique.

Haliburton and the rest of the contractors in Iraq? Well the reigning regime ALWAYS gives kick backs to its friends, look at all the presidential pardons Clinton signed on his way out the door.

Are we better off then we were fours yours ago? I am. Antiquated tax laws that took money from me for being married are modified, employment is UP overall and the country is safer than it has been in a long time.

Just my two cents

Yes, one was an adulterer and liar. The other came to the office with a criminal record. How many DUI's does Dubya have? President Clinton was no saint, but neither is President Bush.

AET. I must concur with my forumites. If you don't vote, you don't complain.

No one cried when we attacked Afghanistan? Thats correct. They attacked us. Iraq didn't.

Better off than four years ago? I'm not. I find myself unemployed for the first time in my life. My job like so many others here in Michigan went south of the border. The President says "Outsourcing is good for America." Who's America? Not mine. The employment figures may be up in your part of the country, but they're way down here.

~Jeff

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Postby OutofGum » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:43 pm

garrett wrote:And Kerry doesnt have a checkered past? Dont even get me started about HIS military career. Bush may have had some issues in the past, but who hasn't? Come on, show me a completely faultless person, and I will shake hands with Jesus himself.
Garrett
I mentioned this because you wrote "the other led this country during one of its most trying times." It seemed that you did not realize he had some issues in the past. Which he does... and Kerry's military career is an issue in contention, while Bush is an admitted coke head alcoholic. Maybe the crack head down the street should run for Senate.
garrett wrote: And Saddam hasn't been appeased out of fear of looking bad in the world forum? Or out of fear of war with the Middle east? Iraq is a signatory on several treaties that outlaw the prodution, proliferation, and employment of Chemical Weapons, which, as you will remember he did on the Iranians and HIS OWN PEOPLE. What did the UN or the world do? NOTHING. Appeasement is appeasement.
Garrett
What does that have to do with the situation 18 months ago?
garrett wrote: He has blown off the world (the UN) since Desert Storm and no one hs done a thing to lift a finger. WMD aside, he was Iraq has been proven time and again to be a terrorist safe haven and training base. Remember Saddam's promise to pay the families of suicide bombers if they struck in Israel? How do you define striking out against the US or our allies? 9/11 reminds me of Pearl Harbor. What about the whole Oil for Food debacle?
Garrett
What exactly is your point? He broke his word? Saddam was not involved in Iraq (edit: substitute Iraq with 9/11), no matter how hard the GOP tried to convince us that he was.
garrett wrote: Employment is not a function of the president in the first place, it is a function of the economy. And depending on what poll you read, and where the demographic was pulled for that poll, your statistics can be skewed. I wont fight you on that issue.
Garrett
Then why did you mention it???? "Antiquated tax laws that took money from me for being married are modified, employment is UP overall and the country is safer than it has been in a long time."
garrett wrote: As far as the country being safe? Tell me how thats debatable. Terrorist cells and plots have been foiled and stopped sinec 9/11? I would agree that taking away knitting needles and the liberties taken by the TSA nazis are ridiculous.
Garrett
There are a hell of a lot more terrorists gunning for us, our borders are porous, there are a ton of chemical weapons missing, and nuclear - excuse me nukler - material seems to be for sale on the black market.
To the pessimist the glass is half empty, to the optimist the glass is half full, to the engineer its twice as big as it needs to be.

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Postby Matt Studabaker » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:00 pm

I think we all need to make sure we discuss this, and not just fight about it.

Dantecubit, I mean no offense by this, but as Americans, I think we have a different outlook on this than you. Yes, we can all agree with or disagree with President Bush, but he's leading our country. Again, no offense meant, just saying, this hits home even more here.

OutofGum, I can't say for sure on Bush's past with alcohol and coke, but 1) Did you ever drink when you were young? and 2) Bush didn't have cameras following him around the Guard base. Kerry's cameras in Vietnam are just a taaaad suspicious.

As to Iraq, while it appears there may not have been WMD, Saddam was ousted, and that's the critical part. When they went through his palace, U.S. troops found LOTS of documents that Saddam's croonies kept. Anyways, those stated that Saddam had plans to either produce or procure WMD as soon as the U.N. weapons inspectors left. Given his history, I wonder if he would have been nice and given those plans up just because the other kids said it wasn't fair for him to have them?

Also, in my opinion, it was time to do something about Saddam. He'd disregarded around 14 U.N. sanctions, what makes you think he would suddenly follow one? The U.N. showed it wasn't gonna back anything up, so the U.S. stepped in and did it for them. And as Garrett said, WWII aside, do you really think that the world would be just as safe if Saddam was still in power? Whether or not he ties to 9-11 is irrelevant, he showed time after time that he would support terrorism, and he did so on many occasions.

And lastly, let's all picture John Kerry on 9-11. Would he have done better than Bush? Worse? Would he have gone after Afghanistan, or would he have made sure the U.N. said it was alright first?

Hmm....

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Postby OutofGum » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:40 pm

Matt Studabaker wrote: OutofGum, I can't say for sure on Bush's past with alcohol and coke, but 1) Did you ever drink when you were young? and 2) Bush didn't have cameras following him around the Guard base. Kerry's cameras in Vietnam are just a taaaad suspicious.
I can comment for sure on Bush's past as he admitted that he used cocaine during college.

Drinking socially (even binging on occasion) is quite different from alcoholism.
To the pessimist the glass is half empty, to the optimist the glass is half full, to the engineer its twice as big as it needs to be.

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Postby garrett » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:51 pm

Spidernoir wrote:.

No one cried when we attacked Afghanistan? Thats correct. They attacked us. Iraq didn't.

Better off than four years ago? I'm not. I find myself unemployed for the first time in my life. My job like so many others here in Michigan went south of the border. The President says "Outsourcing is good for America." Who's America? Not mine. The employment figures may be up in your part of the country, but they're way down here.
Well actually if you look at it, Afghanistan did not attack us. Al Quada did, with the support of the Taliban. We did the exact same thing we did in Iraq and since America's short term memory has kicked in again, we are now an invading power, hell bent on the destruction of the Iraqi people. I will satnd by my statement, Iraq was a terrorist haven that provided support to numerous terrorist organizations around the world. Sounds kind of like the Taliban to me.

I am sorry about your current employment status. I dont really know what to say about that.

Garrett
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Postby garrett » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:03 am

OutofGum wrote:
What does that have to do with the situation 18 months ago?.
All those actions led up to 18 months ago.
OutofGum wrote:What exactly is your point? He broke his word? Saddam was not involved in Iraq, no matter how hard the GOP tried to convince us that he was..
Saddam not involved in Iraq??? He was the reason for the situation there? How can you honestly say that he was not involved there?
OutofGum wrote:Then why did you mention it???? "Antiquated tax laws that took money from me for being married are modified, employment is UP overall and the country is safer than it has been in a long time.".
I mentioned it because across the country, it is up. I know that in certain states, it is down, but across the board its up. I also stated that we are both on a slippery slope argument about statistical data that can be easily adjusted to meet our needs. That is why I wont discuss it.
OutofGum wrote:There are a hell of a lot more terrorists gunning for us, our borders are porous, there are a ton of chemical weapons missing, and nuclear - excuse me nukler - material seems to be for sale on the black market.
And this is GW's fault how? This war on terror is going to be long and protracted. Would you like all the terrorists in the world to be found instantly and spanked and sent on their way. Terrorists have ALWAYS been gunning for us, remember Beirut? WMD aren't just missing from Iraq either. Remember all those Former Soviet Republics with black markets weapons for sale? Face it, you are American, and there are people in the world who hate you for it. I have seen this first hand and it is not pretty, and it is an eye opener. But always remember that you being an American, still have it alot better than most of the world.

Garrett
I actually have all the Spydercos I want. Isn't that wierd? On second though, no I don't...

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Postby OutofGum » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:58 am

garrett wrote: Saddam not involved in Iraq??? He was the reason for the situation there? How can you honestly say that he was not involved there?
Garrett
Slip of the... finger... meant 9/11.
garrett wrote: I mentioned it because across the country, it is up. I know that in certain states, it is down, but across the board its up. Garrett
Across the board it is up from the lows that we have been in.
garrett wrote: I also stated that we are both on a slippery slope argument about statistical data that can be easily adjusted to meet our needs. That is why I wont discuss it.

And this is GW's fault how? This war on terror is going to be long and protracted. Would you like all the terrorists in the world to be found instantly and spanked and sent on their way. Terrorists have ALWAYS been gunning for us, remember Beirut? WMD aren't just missing from Iraq either. Remember all those Former Soviet Republics with black markets weapons for sale? Face it, you are American, and there are people in the world who hate you for it. I have seen this first hand and it is not pretty, and it is an eye opener. But always remember that you being an American, still have it alot better than most of the world.
Garrett
Never said its GW fault, my point was that there is no way of justifying the statement that "the country is safer than it has been in a long time" - it is not. I think that a crucial first step is to secure the material that is in the former soviet republics, something the current adminstation seems to think is unimportant.
To the pessimist the glass is half empty, to the optimist the glass is half full, to the engineer its twice as big as it needs to be.

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Postby dialex » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:46 am

AllenETreat wrote:garret -
When I did vote ( in the 2000 election ) dubya won anyways -
did my vote count? I think the electoral colleges vote counted more.
An old "comrade" (Stalin) used to say to one of his closest friends (Beria): "Tovarisci Beria, it doesn't matter who vote. What matters is who counts the votes." ;)
The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind orders itself and meets resistance.


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