Bush vs Kerry ..... The Future

[Ray.Hood]

That is just nasty, Kerry already looks quite the Neanderthal!
Yeeesshh. Servicemen and women, rejoice, Dubya has returned.
Yee-haw.

[Stevie Ray]

Well ...., our boy JFK was recently spotted at the local 7-11 picking up a case of Hamms ... or maybe that was Pabst Blue Ribbon. Seems he spent all our tax dollars during the campaign ...... :mad:

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/7 ... tshirt.jpg' width=500 height=705 >

[Spidernoir]

How so? Have you looked at the unemployment figures lately?

~Jeff

[J Smith]

Not his fault,Cliton just got a free ride from the good times of the 80s by the time he got out of office the econamy was on a big downslide.
I do agree that for it to get any better NAFTA will have to be done away with and imports from China are going to have to be cut way back.Just doing these 2 things would do wonders.

[OutofGum]

I don't understand how Bush can be the person that people want to protect the nation.

The biggest lapse in national security happened on his watch.
Instead of capturing Bin Laden he invades Iraq which had NO weapons of mass destruction, no terrorist camps, and no "nuclur" facilities. He created a place where thousands on new terrorists are being created every day. In addition it has cost thousands of American soldiers their lives. American soldiers who signed up to protect America, not liberate Iraqis.
Thousands of Iraqis are being killed every day. By American troops and by terrorists. Most of you probably see this on the news and have stopped paying attention... just look at the newspaper... oh, you'll have to flip a few pages to find it.

I could go on like this all day but plain fact is that George Bush has, in my opinion, been the worst president in the past 50 years. I live in NYC the city which has been hardest hit by terrorists and the place most in danger... don't you find it curious that I and most other New Yorkers voted for Kerry?

[java]

I don't understand how Bush can be the person that people want to protect the nation.

The biggest lapse in national security happened on his watch.
Instead of capturing Bin Laden he invades Iraq which had NO weapons of mass destruction, no terrorist camps, and no "nuclur" facilities. He created a place where thousands on new terrorists are being created every day. In addition it has cost thousands of American soldiers their lives. American soldiers who signed up to protect America, not liberate Iraqis.
Thousands of Iraqis are being killed every day. By American troops and by terrorists. Most of you probably see this on the news and have stopped paying attention... just look at the newspaper... oh, you'll have to flip a few pages to find it.

I could go on like this all day but plain fact is that George Bush has, in my opinion, been the worst president in the past 50 years. I live in NYC the city which has been hardest hit by terrorists and the place most in danger... don't you find it curious that I and most other New Yorkers voted for Kerry?

The election is over. No need to spout the DNC party line any longer.

As a Vietnam Vet, I couldn't understand how anyone could support JFK2 after checking his voting record, his plan to win the war/peace in Iraq, or living through the crapstorm he created for Viet Vets and the POWS in particular after his return from Southeast Asia.

What happened on GWB's watch is a fairly logical progression from the crap that happened on every presidents term from 1978 on. The warning signs grew ever more apparent under Clinton and his efforts were largely ineffectual in dealing with it. Or did you feel more comfortable after the first WTC bombing (Now what were the actions he took again?) or Khobar towers' or the USS Cole, or Kenya/Nairobi.

Research the facts and you may find that indeed there were training camps under Abu Nidal and others. Saddam had 12 years and numerous Security Council Resolutions to come clean on WMDs. He fired on our aircraft in the No-Fire zones. He played cat and mouse with the UN Inspectors for an unforgivable amount of time. He gambled and lost. With intelligence from our CIA, MI6, and Russia backing the existence of WMDs sounds like a few more people were convinced they existed. The French, Russians and Chinese were busy rebuilding Saddams capabilities under the guise of the Oil for Food program. Read Ken Pollack's The Threatening Storm and maybe you'll see that Gore, Clinton, and more than a few head Dems favored regime change by force toward the end of Clinton's term. I'm sure the Sandy Berger classified document fiasco a few months back had nothing to do with protecting Bill's backside regarding 9-11 and events that led to it either, eh?

There are many other sources regarding Saddam's nuclear program as well. And CBW weapons? He had them. He used them against Iran and his own Kurdish countrymen. Dual use facilities are easily converted and there are still large tonnages of CBW weapons that were inventoried by the UN after the 1991 Gulf War that have not been accounted for. Where do YOU think they went.

Usama?? What? You think because he masterminded the NYC WTC disaster that by capturing him the war is over?? Ever play Wack-a-Mole? That's how the war on terror is going to be for a while. Iraq is now a focus for Al Qaeda and terrorists bent on killing Americans. The good thing is it's over there and we've got the weapons, the backing, and resolve to fight back. GWB has made it more difficult for them to do their work here. We still have a ways to go but since we have been awakened how many home front attacks have you seen here.

Tell me exactly how many "thousands" of American soldiers have lost their lives there. I'll grant you the incidental casualties of war but take a look at Korea, Vietnam, WWII or any major war and see if their combat/civilian death tolls are anywhere close to this war's. The US consciously applies rules of engagement to reduce collateral casualties. Does your enemy???

And thousands of Iraqis everyday??? Please quote a reference here. I myself would raise holy **** if this were the truth and so would most of the civilized world. The UN would be in emergency session right now.

I also could go on like this all day. GWB has been handed a pile of crap and dealt with it. I don't agree with all he's done but he does lead. He has the cajones to take the unpopular stand and the will to see it through. He realizes that "Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" and will commit them to secure our freedoms.

I can't honestly explain why New Yorkers vote as they do. You have some of the strongest gun control in the nation and still have gun violence. You elected Hillary Clinton over what was his name Rick Lazio or something. You read the New York Times and quote it as reliable news. Go figure. It's just one of life's mysteries and your freedom to do so. Celebrate in that and work toward change if you feel that strongly.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government when it deserves it." - Mark Twain

[spyderknut]

:eek: Wow. Like the European papers said, how could so many of us been so stupid? We could have appeased the terrorists by electing in the opposition just like the Spanish did. They have not had a terrorist attack since their election, have they?

I think more there are more relevant questions to ask. How could John Kerry have been the best man for the Dems to put up against W? How could John Kerry have selected a Southern trial lawyer who could not even deliver his own state as a running mate? How could the DNC allow a platform that was a moving target?

The majority in the Blue states just cannot understand the concepts of doing what you say and saying what you mean. They cannot grasp the concept of personal responsiblity. They cannot understand that to lower the deficit you need to stimulate economic growth rather than soak the "rich".

The election is over and W et al will be in office another 4 years whether 48% like it or not. I am personally thankful though not without compromise. While I disagree politically with some family members, coworkers and neighbors we all still live and work together. OutofGum's right to express his view and each of our rights to vote for or against a given candidate or issue are part of what makes this country great.

We will move on together. There are arguments that never end. They just wax and wane in intensity during the course of our brief lives on this earth. Opinions are swayed my maturity and life events and world events over which we are powerless. We adapt and survive or we stew in contempt and perish. Enjoy the moment. Enjoy the argument and the ability to say your mind. But get over it if you don't get your way!

[spyderknut]

Oh, and thanks again Java! :spyder: :)

[java]

Oh, and thanks again Java! :spyder: :)

Thanks for your post above. :D Well said!

[OutofGum]

How many days have we been there?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/ac ... _id=875314

[Senate]

How many days have we been there?
...
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/ac ... _id=875314

Le Monde... Nice dude

[J Smith]

Well posted Java.I am not good at typeing out things like this.
Also IMO the war in Iraq is worth it for no other reason than that Momar Kadafie's(SP?)nukes are now sitting not 30 miles from my house in Oak Ridge.

[thombrogan]

How so? Have you looked at the unemployment figures lately?

I thought that job losses were the result of an employer no longer having a demand for the labor of the person or people whom the employer let go. In turn, that would be because the customer or customers who purchased goods and/or services from the employer had stopped purchasing said goods/services in levels that justified the continued employment. To that end, may I conclude that 'The Shrub' was going around and talking people out of spending and would/could only do so while holding office of the President?

My Spyder-sense is tingling and I believe that a "yeah, but" is coming up. A "yeah, but" about 'Dubya' letting jobs go overseas. In a free economy, or relatively free economy, we are allowed to buy what we can afford to meet our wants and needs be they goods or services. I'll continue being very happy about Delicas and Calypso Jrs made in Seki City, Japan and Salsas made in Taipei, Taiwan until folks in this country can produce them with the same amount of quality for less money or more quality for the same money.

But that's all Bush's fault..

[OutofGum]

There are many factors that have an influence on how the economy is doing (of which unemployment is one part). The president has the greatest sway over the state of the economy, especially when he has a congressional majority on his side. Historically and economically, Bush's policies make no sense. That is one reason there was a petition signed by 10 nobel Laureates protesting his "economic plan."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/rele ... rlof.shtml

[java]

How many days have we been there?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596
http://www.lemonde.fr/cgi-bin/ACHATS/ac ... _id=875314

If you read each of these articles, you will see that, they are using the same study. The "study" also admits it did not use exact counts and arrived at its "estimate" through extrapolation. There is also no independent verification of the figures. Furthmore, consider your sources and look again at the slant applied to the reporting. The author so much as stated he wanted the report released a few days before the election - do ya think, with the authors stated anti-war philosophy, he might have a little bias :eek: ??? Does the term "Democratic imperialism" hint of bias and sound like yellow-dog journalism at all??? Even the articles quoted expert said the estimate may not be representative due to its focusing on violent hot spots. Sheesh! Quoting this article sounds like Kerry jumping on the missing explosives news.

If we were to use this "estimate" it, to validate your claim, the war would be less than 100 days so far. To answer your question, I believe it's been a tad longer. Are you also upset at Bush because you weren't schooled under the No Child Left Behind program and then would've been able to do the math? I apologize for the ad hominim counter there but that was just too obvious and easy.

You tried to answer one point but it's nowhere near your claim. Again contrast with previous wars. Try and find a more accurate total to base your claim on and then not only contrast it with previous wars, contrast it with the loss of Mid-Eastern lives from the time of the Iran-Iraq Wars through Gulf War I and up to Saddams's ouster. Saddam's failed wars, his oppression of the Iraqi people, and the legacy of his despicable spawn have taken far more lives than your quoted article's estimate even if it did include Falluja.

I urge you to read and observe more of the human condition - to criticize and question your own viewpoints. I understand you feel strongly about Bush and the war in Iraq but if you are to persue these arguments it is only through learning about the other side and questioning your views that you will reinforce them or realize they are not as you believed. Either way you will come away more knowledgeable and be able to discuss them with clarity and logic.

"There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out." -Russian Proverb

[OutofGum]

Do you have a better estimate? Just because a report was released for a purpose doesn't mean the data is incorrect.

I have never made an ad hominem attack, thank you for refraining as well and keeping this civilized.

This war was unecessary and accomplished nothing. We found no weapons of mass destruction, we did not cut down on the number of terrorists in Iraq. Before the war we had complete air superiority and could bomb an suspected installation at will. I get kind of pissed when American troops die for no reason.

[java]

Do you have a better estimate? Just because a report was released for a purpose doesn't mean the data is incorrect.

I have never made an ad hominem attack, thank you for refraining as well and keeping this civilized.

This war was unecessary and accomplished nothing. We found no weapons of mass destruction, we did not cut down on the number of terrorists in Iraq. Before the war we had complete air superiority and could bomb an suspected installation at will. I get kind of pissed when American troops die for no reason.

OOG,

You made the claim and I asked you to back it up. You gave a WAG, an estimate, an extrapolation.

I didn't make the claim. I just asked you for a reliable source. After analysis, your source is rather dubious at best and inflammatory and misleading at worst. Your defense of it reminds me of the movie Air America when Mel Gibson said "No reason to throw out a perfectly good theory just because it doesn’t' work."

The point here is we don't know what the true figures are and there are going be to collateral casualties in any war. Again contrast with other wars.

The sad thing about this is, and I'm just hypothesizing here, I will wager you a new Spydie that a good percentage of the casualties are caused by insurgents against the local Iraqi populations. These are people that target and bomb children who gather for a social functions. These are people who indiscriminately target and bomb anyone who is not solidly for their perverted cause. These are people who are not necessarily Iraqis themselves but claim solidarity with the struggle against the oppressed Iraqi people then bomb the every-lovin' crap out of their brothers. Terrorists are not always freedom fighters - sometimes they're just freakin' terrorists (read indiscriminate cold-blooded murderers)

We cannot retreat to an isolationist island nation as we thought we could before WWI. We are all connected through the global business world and our strategic political interests and as the world's remaining superpower we are our brother's keeper. The UN found weapons of mass destruction that to this day remain unaccounted for. Saddam did use them. The UN found proscribed missile delivery systems for conventional and CBW warheads. These are historical facts. We have also been overly cautious in trying to claim dual use facilities as evidence of WMD. To say Saddam's WMDs do not exist is fatuous and contrary to Saddam's behavior over the last 12 years. What did he have to gain by stalling??? This whole debacle could have been avoided by Saddam's willingness to live up to the accords he signed and that the UN and the US tried to hold him accountable for. Other nations have been cleared and prospered at the conclusion of hostilities by complying with internationally mandated inspections and regulatory efforts. Why play a shell game with the future of your people and your country???


The fact that the US seems to be one of the few countries with the balls to stand up and hold countries and their leaders responsible for what the rest of the UN Security Council and the World Body at large have agreed upon is a sad comment on the world today and is a harbinger of worse times to come unless we all commit to the rule of law that binds us. Read more on Saddam and his political apparatus before you say there were no terrorists there. Look at the Feyadeen Saddam and some of the other instruments of oppression meant to keep him in power before you say there were no terrorists in Iraq. These people melted into the local populace and continue to use the methods they were trained in. Zarqawi and his ilk relocated to the easiest place to confront kill Americans for now. Do not fool yourself into believing that if not occupied there they wouldn't be here or plotting to come here.

We have air dominance - not superiority. We can attack at will but the will is restrained by the rules of engagement and take humane and political needs into account. The majority of troops that I have spoken to at Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Fort Sill et al insist that what we are doing is the right thing. There are dissenters and they will grab the headlines because they are aberrations and most newsworthy to a liberal press. You may get pissed off but try telling these troops they are dying and have lost brothers in combat for no reason.

In my 24-years military service I have come to hate war more than you can imagine. I also learned that as long as there are people that would do others harm on a grand scale that which I hate most is most necessary. I wish it were not so but until the Saddams, the Milosevics, the Amins, the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Parks, and the terrorists of the world believe as you and I basically do, it will not change.

j

[jaxon]

Thank you Java !!!!!!!!!!!!

Jaxon

[OutofGum]

You are right, there is no way that we can know the exact number of casualties, no way we can count each one. Therefore we must use estimates and extrapolations which we make as accurate as possible. Granted they are never 100% correct, but they are far from the WAGs that you seem to think they are.

I have no doubt that many of the deaths have been caused by Iraqi terrorists, but the fact is that they are terrorists that did not and would not have existed 18 months ago. War and occupation brought these.

I agree that the US cannot be isolationist and that we need the cooperation of the world, which is one reason that I so opposed the invasion of Iraq. It polarized the US and turned almost every potential ally against us (our only strong European allies seem to be England and Poland at this point). We cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. Of course other nations will persue terrorists within their borders when they can, but they will be less willing to cooperate with us when that is exactly what we need. Most terrorists in the world reside outside of the US and slip in when necessary, if we do not have the allies to track them when abroad, that is a significant blow to our cause and the safety of the nation.

Some of the people I have spoken to who have misgivings about our involvement in Iraq are naval officers. They are very pissed that they have lost their brothers in this war and occupation. They told me in no uncertain terms that they signed up to defend this nation not liberate Iraqis. They have seen combat and despise it.

I look forward to reading your thoughtful and thought provoking comments and criticisms.

[Spidernoir]

I thought that job losses were the result of an employer no longer having a demand for the labor of the person or people whom the employer let go. In turn, that would be because the customer or customers who purchased goods and/or services from the employer had stopped purchasing said goods/services in levels that justified the continued employment. To that end, may I conclude that 'The Shrub' was going around and talking people out of spending and would/could only do so while holding office of the President?

My Spyder-sense is tingling and I believe that a "yeah, but" is coming up. A "yeah, but" about 'Dubya' letting jobs go overseas. In a free economy, or relatively free economy, we are allowed to buy what we can afford to meet our wants and needs be they goods or services. I'll continue being very happy about Delicas and Calypso Jrs made in Seki City, Japan and Salsas made in Taipei, Taiwan until folks in this country can produce them with the same amount of quality for less money or more quality for the same money.

But that's all Bush's fault..

Yes it is. All Dubya has to do is change that little juicy little tax perk that the big corporations (like my former employer) are drooling over which benefits them in moving jobs out of the country. Supply and demand may have something to do with some of the companies leaving the country but alot (again like my former employer) moved out simply for cheaper labor. The average wage where I used to work was $12.00 an hour. The company is now up and running in Reynosa, (spell check) Mexico where the wage is $1.67 an hour USD. I know from friends who still have their jobs at the company that the money saved is not being passed on to the customers, but rather the stockholders. With all do respects Thom, your argument looks good on paper, but I'm living Nafta. And despite where Spyderco's are made, I can no longer afford to buy them. Let alone heat my house.

~Jeff