Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[James Y]

Unarmed Combat (Defendu) - British Army, Home Guard, 1941

https://youtu.be/pkVtqrtD-W4

Jim

[James Y]

Women's Knockouts (MMA, kickboxing, boxing, Kyokushin Karate, Sanda, and Tae Kwon Do)

I know I keep bringing up the subject of CTE a lot, but it makes me wonder how much CTE in women will increase in the coming years.

https://youtu.be/WInmL0kF_gU

Jim

[VashHash]

Unarmed Combat (Defendu) - British Army, Home Guard, 1941

https://youtu.be/pkVtqrtD-W4

Jim

I'm not sure if these are European techniques but they bare resemblance to Asian techniques. Of course looking at old fencing manuals it seems that after a while it all blends. Just makes me think that some techniques are almost universal. After enough trial and error certain things work and everything else is BS.


EDIT
Seems I didn't watch the whole video and they actually call out Japanese stranglehold. I was wondering about origins because of the British occupation of China. I guess they learned from Japanese as well.

[James Y]

Unarmed Combat (Defendu) - British Army, Home Guard, 1941

https://youtu.be/pkVtqrtD-W4

Jim

I'm not sure if these are European techniques but they bare resemblance to Asian techniques. Of course looking at old fencing manuals it seems that after a while it all blends. Just makes me think that some techniques are almost universal. After enough trial and error certain things work and everything else is BS.


EDIT
Seems I didn't watch the whole video and they actually call out Japanese stranglehold. I was wondering about origins because of the British occupation of China. I guess they learned from Japanese as well.

Hi, VashHash.

Defendu was created by W.E. Fairbairn, while he served in the Shanghai Municipal Police. It's a combination of techniques taken from Jujutsu, Judo, Baguazhang-style Kung Fu, and some French Savate, and etc. But mostly Jujutsu/Judo and Baguazgang.

Fairbairn was one of the first Westerners to earn a black belt in Judo in Japan. He was also most likely THE first Westerner to have learned Baguazhang. He also co-designed the famous Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife.

Defendu was simplified, and was taught to the Shanghai Municipal Police in China, before he taught hand-to-hand combat to the British military during WWII. The way he taught the military was more for killing than for self-defense. Fairbairn was in over 600 street fights while working in Shanghai, at a time when Shanghai was one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and reportedly had the knife scars all over his body to prove it. Fairbairn was known to have been one of the most dangerous men in real-life hand to hand combat.

Defendu had to be simple enough so policemen and soldiers could learn to use it very quickly, without years of training.

Jim

[James Y]

Defendu/Gutter Fighting (The Complete History)

An excellent video about William Ewart Fairbairn and his Defendu/Gutter Fighting method. His over 600 documented street fights is not a lie; I've heard this from other credible sources.

If I have one complaint, it's that the narrator only superficially mentions Fairbairn's Chinese martial arts experience as merely Qin-Na (joint locking, which is a part of all Chinese systems) and some hand trapping. He actually trained in Baguazhang, often simply called Bagua, probably the first non-Chinese person to do so. Which was quite an accomplishment in itself during that time period. Fairbairn himself described his Bagua teacher, Tsai Ching-Tung, as "a man of terrifying prowess." That says a lot coming from Fairbairn himself, who was one of the toughest and most dangerous men who ever lived.

https://youtu.be/l-YYJ4ZKico

Jim

[James Y]

A Little Less Combination, a Little More Action

https://youtu.be/JRd-_67tOGU

Jim

[James Y]

Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife

https://youtu.be/uDGHKyB3T_U

Jim

[Naperville]

James is 100% correct. Everything he said jives with what I know about Defendu and Fairbairn. Fairbarin was called in to train the military and CIA.

Defendu is the real deal, and so is Fairbairn.

[James Y]

Inner Forearm Strike

Coincidentally, this is the way I use the Sau Choi strike of Choy Lee Fut. I use the inner forearm to target the side of the neck or jaw, in a slightly downward trajectory. Depending on your position relative to the opponent, you could also target the base of the skull.

There are a lot of Choy Lee Fut people who strike with their fist when doing the Sau Choi, but I've always used the radial forearm bone. The direction of the strike makes striking with the fist not very practical (IMO), and more likely to injure your own fist. I also use the Sau Choi in close quarters, and not as a long-range strike. It is essential to keep a slight bend in the elbow, to avoid hyperextending it on impact.

If you watch a CLF practitioner doing Sau Choi in a form, it looks too wide and very easy to block or avoid. That's because the form emphasizes developing the body's full range of motion. In close quarters and shortened for practical application, and with a proper setup, it comes from a blind spot and is difficult to defend against, and is very powerful. Sau Choi can be done from the rear hand or the lead hand; it depends on the setup and your positioning.

Tommy Moore is NOT a CLF practitioner, and has probably never even heard of CLF. But it goes to show that practical moves from disparate sources can have remarkable similarities.

https://youtu.be/meDd4P5MOr0

Jim

[James Y]

Rapiers: Murder Weapons Rather Than Duellist Swords? Primary Source History Accounts

This is a very interesting video, with historical accounts dating as far back as the 1500s.

Note: The actual subject of the video begins @ 4:09:

https://youtu.be/tWfW8g_3-Sk

Jim

[James Y]

How To Take an Eye

Under stress, adrenaline, and the opponent resisting, I'd imagine it could be easy to miss his eye with your thumb, without first clapping your palm to his lower cheek, and then using the side of the bridge of his nose as a tactile reference to slide your thumb up to locate his eye, and drive your thumbnail into it.

I like his using the other arm to strike the base of the skull, and temporarily trap his head, so he can't simply back away from the thumb dig.

https://youtu.be/6p7DQja2Zkc

Jim

[twinboysdad]

Unarmed Combat (Defendu) - British Army, Home Guard, 1941

https://youtu.be/pkVtqrtD-W4

Jim

I'm not sure if these are European techniques but they bare resemblance to Asian techniques. Of course looking at old fencing manuals it seems that after a while it all blends. Just makes me think that some techniques are almost universal. After enough trial and error certain things work and everything else is BS.


EDIT
Seems I didn't watch the whole video and they actually call out Japanese stranglehold. I was wondering about origins because of the British occupation of China. I guess they learned from Japanese as well.

Hi, VashHash.

Defendu was created by W.E. Fairbairn, while he served in the Shanghai Municipal Police. It's a combination of techniques taken from Jujutsu, Judo, Baguazhang-style Kung Fu, and some French Savate, and etc. But mostly Jujutsu/Judo and Baguazgang.

Fairbairn was one of the first Westerners to earn a black belt in Judo in Japan. He was also most likely THE first Westerner to have learned Baguazhang. He also co-designed the famous Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife.

Defendu was simplified, and was taught to the Shanghai Municipal Police in China, before he taught hand-to-hand combat to the British military during WWII. The way he taught the military was more for killing than for self-defense. Fairbairn was in over 600 street fights while working in Shanghai, at a time when Shanghai was one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and reportedly had the knife scars all over his body to prove it. Fairbairn was known to have been one of the most dangerous men in real-life hand to hand combat.

Defendu had to be simple enough so policemen and soldiers could learn to use it very quickly, without years of training.

Jim

Fairbain had the BMF belt before there was a BMF belt…that dude was shot and stabbed and still dealt more punishment than Frank Castle

[James Y]

"This is the Craziest Fight I've Ever Seen"

At 0:20, one fighter does a DDT on the other, showing that moves from "fake" pro wrestling can be dangerous, if done for real.

https://youtu.be/J2Iv386PHIM

Jim

[James Y]

"You've Never Seen Kung Fu Like This"

Actually, Sanda has been around for quite a long time. It's not a new thing; it's more or less been around in its current form since around the late 1960s or early '70s. It used to be called Sanshou, and in Taiwan, Leitai. But they're the same thing; the full-contact sport version of Kung Fu. It’s not a ‘style’ of Kung Fu; it’s a combination of skills from various Northern Kung Fu styles, including Shuai Jiao (Chinese/Mongolian wrestling), Changquan (Long Fist Kung Fu), and etc.

By the way, Sanda does NOT rhyme with panda; it's pronounced San-Dah. There have been Sanda fighters who have defeated pro Muay Thai fighters from Thailand. The current and 2-time UFC women's straw weight champion, Zhang Weili, was a Sanda champion before fighting in MMA.

When real Kung Fu is trained for fighting, it's going to look like fighting. It's not going to look all stylized and fancy like in a Kung Fu movie. That's a concept that most non-Kung Fu people seem unable to grasp. Kung Fu techniques are being used; they just don't look the exact same in actual fighting as they do in the form. Forms are only stylized REPRESENTATIONS of fighting techniques. There is a military form of Sanda that is designed for combat, not sport, and it more closely resembles what people think of as 'traditional' Kung Fu.

https://youtu.be/RZGhUz3nYNw

Jim

[James Y]

Bartitsu: The Gentlemanly Art of Self-Defence


The mixing and combining of different martial arts systems is as old as martial arts themselves. Every martial art you see today is a combination of what the founder considered the best of different fighting methods. Many people credit Bruce Lee as originating the concept of taking the best from different martial arts and formulating a new "mixed martial art." While I admire Bruce Lee, that is nonsense. Combining methods from different systems goes back to antiquity.

Even Judo was a mixed martial art; Jigoro Kano combined the best he learned from various older Jujutsu systems, and then created safer, updated training methods so students could freestyle more realistically, with less risk of injury than in older Jujutsu training methods, in which injuries were common.

https://youtu.be/4tC5O7HV_KY

Jim

[James Y]

Make a Knife From Paper

Well, not a 'real' knife, but a makeshift shiv that may work well in a SD situation, if you have it already made and in hand, and if you strike the face/eye, neck, etc.

My second Mantis-style teacher in Taiwan had a technique of folding a paper money bill into a makeshift shiv, similar to what's shown in the video, only smaller, and held between his closed fingers as a punching spike.

https://youtu.be/AHBfLN2sM_k

Jim

[James Y]

Knife Fight: Fantasy vs Reality

Video below.

The reality part was basically what happened many years back, when a 3rd-degree black belt Tae Kwon Do instructor i was acquainted with, and who owned a big school of his own, asked me to be his attacker, so he could practice his knife defenses more realistically. He handed me a rubber training knife and said I could "stab" or "cut" him anywhere, except for the neck or higher (for safety reasons).

Although I am a martial artist, I wasn't a trained knife fighter then, and I'm not one now. But I instinctively knew enough to use it very similarly to the attacker in the 'reality' parts in this video. The Tae Kwon Do instructor ended up with bruises and raised welts all over his forearms, ab area, sides, back, and later he told me the fronts of his thighs. Getting "slashed" or "stabbed" with even that rubber training knife was painful. Not once was he able to kick me, block me, strike me, or use any of his TKD/Hapkido self-defense grabs, locks, etc., on me.

People, even (or especially) on knife forums, greatly underestimate how dangerous a person armed with a knife is, and how difficult it is to defend against them, much less disarm them, if they are determined and aggressive. Even if they've had no formal knife combat training.

https://youtu.be/GXF4AhbC2CI

Jim

[Naperville]

Knife Fight: Fantasy vs Reality

Video below.

The reality part was basically what happened many years back, when a 3rd-degree black belt Tae Kwon Do instructor i was acquainted with, and who owned a big school of his own, asked me to be his attacker, so he could practice his knife defenses more realistically. He handed me a rubber training knife and said I could "stab" or "cut" him anywhere, except for the neck or higher (for safety reasons).

Although I am a martial artist, I wasn't a trained knife fighter then, and I'm not one now. But I instinctively knew enough to use it very similarly to the attacker in the 'reality' parts in this video. The Tae Kwon Do instructor ended up with bruises and raised welts all over his forearms, ab area, sides, back, and later he told me the fronts of his thighs. Getting "slashed" or "stabbed" with even that rubber training knife was painful. Not once was he able to kick me, block me, strike me, or use any of his TKD/Hapkido self-defense grabs, locks, etc., on me.

People, even (or especially) on knife forums, greatly underestimate how dangerous a person armed with a knife is, and how difficult it is to defend against them, much less disarm them, if they are determined and aggressive. Even if they've had no formal knife combat training.

https://youtu.be/GXF4AhbC2CI

Jim

That video pretty much sums it up.

The only thing that may work once in a blue moon is the material on the Dog Brothers "Die Less Often" DVD. It all depends on being able to catch the weapon ARM, and if the attacker is just a bit aware or what is coming you have no luck. Attacking the weapon hand/arm is the only thing that you can do, all the while kicks, head butts and empty hand strikes rain in blows upon you.

Even with well trained Filipino martial artists little can be done.

With Bahala Na in Stockton, CA:

1) I had 6 months of training and was hard sparring with another student with 24 inch rattan sticks with no eye protection or padding on either one of us (at just about my skill level who now has graduated) and he threw what looked like a perfect #1, overhand strike. The move is to use a "roof block" so I executed the block. I almost lost one of my eyes! The tip of his rattan stick hit my eye and the area just below it giving me a cherry. I dropped to my knees immediately, thinking, I had just lost my eye. I was fine in 5 minutes of rest, and had what looked like a black eye remnant for a week afterward.

2) There was a student going through graduation tests, who miscalculated an overhand #1 strike and the attackers stick split the top of his scalp down to the skull. There was plenty of blood. He had to get his scalp stapled over an area of at least 4 inches. This is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rac81Dv6vq0

[James Y]

Knife Fight: Fantasy vs Reality

Video below.

The reality part was basically what happened many years back, when a 3rd-degree black belt Tae Kwon Do instructor i was acquainted with, and who owned a big school of his own, asked me to be his attacker, so he could practice his knife defenses more realistically. He handed me a rubber training knife and said I could "stab" or "cut" him anywhere, except for the neck or higher (for safety reasons).

Although I am a martial artist, I wasn't a trained knife fighter then, and I'm not one now. But I instinctively knew enough to use it very similarly to the attacker in the 'reality' parts in this video. The Tae Kwon Do instructor ended up with bruises and raised welts all over his forearms, ab area, sides, back, and later he told me the fronts of his thighs. Getting "slashed" or "stabbed" with even that rubber training knife was painful. Not once was he able to kick me, block me, strike me, or use any of his TKD/Hapkido self-defense grabs, locks, etc., on me.

People, even (or especially) on knife forums, greatly underestimate how dangerous a person armed with a knife is, and how difficult it is to defend against them, much less disarm them, if they are determined and aggressive. Even if they've had no formal knife combat training.

https://youtu.be/GXF4AhbC2CI

Jim

That video pretty much sums it up.

The only thing that may work once in a blue moon is the material on the Dog Brothers "Die Less Often" DVD. It all depends on being able to catch the weapon ARM, and if the attacker is just a bit aware or what is coming you have no luck. Attacking the weapon hand/arm is the only thing that you can do, all the while kicks, head butts and empty hand strikes rain in blows upon you.

Even with well trained Filipino martial artists little can be done.

With Bahala Na in Stockton, CA:

1) I had 6 months of training and was hard sparring with another student with 24 inch rattan sticks with no eye protection or padding on either one of us (at just about my skill level who now has graduated) and he threw what looked like a perfect #1, overhand strike. The move is to use a "roof block" so I executed the block. I almost lost one of my eyes! The tip of his rattan stick hit my eye and the area just below it giving me a cherry. I dropped to my knees immediately, thinking, I had just lost my eye. I was fine in 5 minutes of rest, and had what looked like a black eye remnant for a week afterward.

2) There was a student going through graduation tests, who miscalculated an overhand #1 strike and the attackers stick split the top of his scalp down to the skull. There was plenty of blood. He had to get his scalp stapled over an area of at least 4 inches. This is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rac81Dv6vq0

Ouch! Thanks for sharing your experience and the video.

The eye is no joke. The worst pain I ever felt was once, 40+ ago during sparring, an opponent wearing those cheap, foam-dipped, Jhoon Rhee-designed Saf-T Punch (or whatever they were called) gloves missed my face with a left punch, but his thumb had been open, and the tip of his exposed thumb rammed straight into my right eyeball. That stopped me in my tracks. With my eye closed, I lightly touched the eyelid, and it felt flat underneath...at least I thought it did. I sat down, and about 5 minutes later, I touched the eyelid again, and I felt the eyeball underneath it again. I very slowly opened my eye in front of a mirror, and my eye was normal, but very red and a bit teary. Surprisingly, I never even suffered an eye infection or a detached retina, or whatever.

After the 5 minutes there was no pain at all; but right after it happened, it was the worst pain in my life up to that point. And I'd previously taken an unprotected shot to the balls by a tennis ball from a hard serve that put me down on the tennis court for several minutes. Yes, my worst ball shot came NOT during a sparring match or a fight, but during a game of tennis.

Jim

[Naperville]

Ouch! Thanks for sharing your experience and the video.

The eye is no joke. The worst pain I ever felt was once, 40+ ago during sparring, an opponent wearing those cheap, foam-dipped, Jhoon Rhee-designed Saf-T Punch (or whatever they were called) gloves missed my face with a left punch, but his thumb had been open, and the tip of his exposed thumb rammed straight into my right eyeball. That stopped me in my tracks. With my eye closed, I lightly touched the eyelid, and it felt flat underneath...at least I thought it did. I sat down, and about 5 minutes later, I touched the eyelid again, and I felt the eyeball underneath it again. I very slowly opened my eye in front of a mirror, and my eye was normal, but very red and a bit teary. Surprisingly, I never even suffered an eye infection or a detached retina, or whatever.

After the 5 minutes there was no pain at all; but right after it happened, it was the worst pain in my life up to that point. And I'd previously taken an unprotected shot to the balls by a tennis ball from a hard serve that put me down on the tennis court for several minutes. Yes, my worst ball shot came NOT during a sparring match or a fight, but during a game of tennis.

Jim

I know.....we're all sissies!

Sorry about your eye poke. It really is quite the wake up call isn't it. One day after 20+ years you think you've just lost vision in one eye, and it freaks you out. It certainly did myself.

No seriously, sparring can be as dangerous as a real fight. Blows to the face/eyes is bad news and I for one thought, what in the heck am I doing with no protective gear of any kind. Now that group Stockton-Multistyle uses eye protection, helmets, and gloves.

Just a note: It is all very confusing, probably too confusing to get into but I'll give it a shot. I came to Bahala Na about 10 to 15 years after they started teaching their art to outsiders. Before that you really had to know someone to get invited to the homes of the instructors.

Guro Dan Inosanto was the first graduate of Bahala Na, and later Inosanto opened a school with Bruce Lee.

There were a few guys with a lot of talent who initially taught everyone in Lodi and Stockton: Dentoy Revillar, Max Sarmiento, Leo Giron and Angel Cabales. There were probably another 6 that also taught escrima/arnis in the area where the Filipino farmers learned under fruit trees and asparagus fields but their arts are not as big.

Around 2001, I started studying escrima with Suro Jason Inay, in Inayan, founded by Mangisursuro Mike Inay, a graduate of GM Angel Cabales. I also received private lessons from Lahong Susuro John Peterson(dec) and Guro David Antony Ruiz.

I was studying 3 escrima arts at once in 2002, but they were all very closely related. The founders of the arts all belonged to the same Filipino lodges.

* I referred to the escrima group that I spent most of my time with as Bahala Na(out of Stockton, CA). That is who they were at the time. They are very well known in escrima circles in NorCal. Well the GM who instructed the initial group(which I was not part of) passed away, his name was GM Leo Giron. A new GM Tony Somera was chosen by GM Giron, and it caused quite a bit of anger among the original group of students. GM Tony Somera was my instructor at the Bahala Na.

To make matters worse, after I returned home from Stockton, CA, to Illinois, Bahala Na GM Tony Somera passed away. The group already reeling from the initial issues, completely fractured because what was the head instructor of the Bahala Na, Maestro Labanog was not delegated as the new leader by GM Somera.

* I had also been studying an art called SLD, which stands for Serrada, Dequerdas(spelling varies) and Largo Mano under Maestro Dexter Labanog, who formed his own group to teach and was REAL tight with the older instructors at Bahala Na. Initially Dexter was the lead instructor under GM Leo Giron.

* I was also studying under Guro Carlito Bonjoc, a graduate of Cabales Serrada Escrima in his art Mata Sa Bagyo.


Well, I got back to Illinois and Bahala Na broke up into around 4 arts. I am not going to go into all of them because there is no way you will read all of that. Historically it is important but it is too confusing.

Just know that the video above that I posted had instructors that also trained me at Bahala Na and SLD. They initially formed a group called, "Bahala Na - Multistyle" and combined all of the techniques with the head of the new group under GM Dexter Labanog. But the group was sued, and they lost in court, and changed the name of the school to "Stockton-Multistyle."

Bahala Na is still around. As is O.G.E, Original Giron Escrima founded by the son of GM Giron.

If you can believe it, between 2000 and 2003, I studied with at least 3 other escrima/arnis groups. The ones above had the most influence on me. You may have heard of Sayoc, yep I trained with them too but not enough to do much.