What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#81

Post by soc_monki »

Doc Dan wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:46 am
The M16 is nearly 70 years old, now. It was designed in the 1950's. I don't know if the new Sig is a better rifle in every way. I hope they solve the mud problem. However, in some ways it is a better design. It runs cleaner, for one thing. Something had to be done. We couldn't keep fielding a firearm that was becoming antiquated by world standards.
So was the Kalashnikov, and it's still in use all over the world. A good weapon is a good weapon, period. Advancements have been made, parts are plentiful, ammunition is available, and you can have them in many different calibers. If you want something bigger that an ar15 can chamber, there is the ar10.

I agree that it's an old design, but it's modularity, ease of use, ease of disassembly and maintenance, make it a great choice for most roles. It's simple and reliable. The new Sig takes cues from the AR, which is good. Familiarity is good, makes it easier to transition to a new system. I'm sure it will be well liked as well. Nothing wrong with piston systems either, and the mud tests are exaggerated, but they should be imo. Push them to the point of failure and then figure out how to fix it. Or just keep the dust cover closed...haha!

I mean, the AK will fail with too much mud ingress as well, and people all the time scream about how it's more reliable in adverse conditions. It's myth. A little dirt won't hurt, but don't pack it with mud, and you'll be OK. Seems reasonable.

It's kind of like how people say ARs need to be sloppy wet to run. It's just not true. I oil my bcg on the four surfaces that contact the receiver and it runs great. Over 600 rounds and haven't done a full cleaning yet... Just wiping off the bcg and a little oil. One malfunction, and it was a dud round. Sure I'm just plinking, but it goes bang so?
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#82

Post by Doc Dan »

https://youtu.be/MTZRCEh1Czg

Here is a no nonsense review that debunks some of the hype. It has a take down demo and discussion. He says the rifle is mild shooting and I saw a video of him using it and it was controllable.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#83

Post by soc_monki »

Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:26 pm
https://youtu.be/MTZRCEh1Czg

Here is a no nonsense review that debunks some of the hype. It has a take down demo and discussion. He says the rifle is mild shooting and I saw a video of him using it and it was controllable.
A very good video, I love Ian. He does make sure to mention that all the ammo being used right now is lower power civilian ammo, not the 80k psi military ammo. That is going to affect recoil. I want to see what it's like with the full power ammo.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#84

Post by Doc Dan »

soc_monki wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:12 am
Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:26 pm
https://youtu.be/MTZRCEh1Czg

Here is a no nonsense review that debunks some of the hype. It has a take down demo and discussion. He says the rifle is mild shooting and I saw a video of him using it and it was controllable.
A very good video, I love Ian. He does make sure to mention that all the ammo being used right now is lower power civilian ammo, not the 80k psi military ammo. That is going to affect recoil. I want to see what it's like with the full power ammo.
There are some vids where they use the full power at military or Sig ranges. I think he has one or is in one that I saw. The recoil is not as bad as I feared because of the recoil mitigation systems and the weight. It is not a 5.56, but it is far from a 7.62, it seems.

I will be interested to see how women in combat units are able to handle this, but so far smaller men are able to do it without issue. There are some jokers out there exaggerating the recoil and some using poor technique. A few guys are to be trusted, however, and Ian is one, I think. He is not full of malarky and he debunked the recoil thing in the video and also the rumor that this is not for all soldiers, when, in fact, it will replace the M4 and etc. platform across the board.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#85

Post by soc_monki »

Doc Dan wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:28 am

There are some vids where they use the full power at military or Sig ranges. I think he has one or is in one that I saw. The recoil is not as bad as I feared because of the recoil mitigation systems and the weight. It is not a 5.56, but it is far from a 7.62, it seems.

I will be interested to see how women in combat units are able to handle this, but so far smaller men are able to do it without issue. There are some jokers out there exaggerating the recoil and some using poor technique. A few guys are to be trusted, however, and Ian is one, I think. He is not full of malarky and he debunked the recoil thing in the video and also the rumor that this is not for all soldiers, when, in fact, it will replace the M4 and etc. platform across the board.
As long as it is handled correctly anyone should be able to fire it effectively. Full auto isn't used that often anyway, so it should be just fine.

I don't think it will completely replace the m4, at least not for a long time. Only 120k will be put into service by the end of 2023, and they'll need quite a few more to completely replace the m4 stockpile. Not to mention the ammo. I know they're building a new plant to make it, but that will take a little bit to get up and running, get the bugs worked out, and get enough stock on hand to start using the weapon for training and issue it to troops in the field.

The m4 will be around for a good while yet I feel. We will see.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#86

Post by max808 »

Some G11 specs I found online...

August 1986 ACR program Phase II starts
Heckler & Koch begin proving their G11 K2
> K3 > 90rd box > 4.3kg/9.5lb
750mm/30in size
540mm/21in barrel 155mm twist
rotary breach 460/2,100 rpm auto/burst
chamber service life 3,500rds > part can be replaced
930m/s > 3,100ft/s
45/50rd box in caseless
9×19mm > 4.73×33mmDM11 >
4.3mm > 4.7mm > 4.9mm >
4.92×34mm > 4.73×25mmNBW >
> 1000 produced with less than 20 rumored still in existence + unknown
developed by GSHG
Gesellshaft fur Hülsenlose Gewehrsysteme
> H&K for engineering & manufacture
> Dynamit Nobel for ballistics
> Hensoldt Wetzlar for optics
400yd effective >

So after millions of Reichsmark and 20+ years of research & development Heckler & Koch nearly went bankrupt with nothing to show for it but a perfectly engineered system that honestly I wouldn't wanna fieldstrip, in a calibre that was probably way ahead of its time, think FN 5.7×28mm which is still not widely adopted but will defeat most body armor at a 100+ yards. I'm starting to see where you're going with that 6mm caseless now Doc! Didn't mean to hijack your thread, just see it as a continuation of a program that's still relevant to this day, the Sig being almost the culmination of decades of trial and error, standing on the shoulders of giants.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#87

Post by JRinFL »

The women who might be using this new weapon will have not trouble using it because they will have already passed the difficult selection and training of whichever of the various SOCOM units they might belong to. That number of women is likely to be very small. It will be a long time before regular line infantry gets an upgrade. The M4 based weapons will be in service for a long time to come.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#88

Post by Doc Dan »

Those women get easier requirements and are often given a pass even if they can't do something properly. Seen it. I'm not saying they can't make good soldiers or shouldn't be fighting. I'm just pointing out the facts. Some of these rifles can kick hard enough to knock a woman off balance, their center of gravity being in their hips, rather than their chests like men. The new carbine's recoil mitigation might help with that. I hope so, now with women entering combat units.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#89

Post by Scandi Grind »

I don't imagine that passing women who can't complete all their training properly is a good thing for anyone, including the women who they pass. Are they just trying to play to the politics or something by doing that?
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#90

Post by The Meat man »

I know very little about the pros and cons, but that is interesting news.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#91

Post by TomAiello »

Scandi Grind wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:35 pm
I don't imagine that passing women who can't complete all their training properly is a good thing for anyone, including the women who they pass. Are they just trying to play to the politics or something by doing that?
I'm not convinced that's what's happening. I know several guys in the SF community who have told me that the women are actually passing the same qualifications. One of my friends described it as 'you're not sure if you're attracted to her or intimidated by her.' Maybe there are some women getting a 'free pass' but there are definitely some who are legitimately earning their place.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#92

Post by Bloke »

soc_monki wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:39 am
ease of disassembly
Image
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#93

Post by Doc Dan »

Bloke wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:35 pm
soc_monki wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:39 am
ease of disassembly
Image
Hahaha! That looks like a libertard shooting it without the pins to show how dangerous the rifle is! It's a wonder the idiot wasn't hurt.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#94

Post by Bloke »

Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:45 pm
Hahaha! That looks like a libertard shooting it without the pins to show how dangerous the rifle is! It's a wonder the idiot wasn't hurt.
Hey Doc, I’ve only seen pictures of AR-15’s and know absolutely nothing about them other than they’re chambered in .223 Rem. and are a semi-auto(?).

The only military semi-auto I’ve shot was a mate’s SLR .308 Win. like the Aussies carried in Vietnam, and that was decades ago.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#95

Post by Doc Dan »

Bloke wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:09 am
Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:45 pm
Hahaha! That looks like a libertard shooting it without the pins to show how dangerous the rifle is! It's a wonder the idiot wasn't hurt.
Hey Doc, I’ve only seen pictures of AR-15’s and know absolutely nothing about them other than they’re chambered in .223 Rem. and are a semi-auto(?).

The only military semi-auto I’ve shot was a mate’s SLR .308 Win. like the Aussies carried in Vietnam, and that was decades ago.
Yeah, chambered most commonly in .223, but there are a lot of other chamberings, such as 6mm ARC, .300 Blackout, .450, and a lot more.

The ONLY way that rifle would have come apart is if the pins holding the upper and lower were not in place and that would have to be on purpose.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#96

Post by soc_monki »

Bloke wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:35 pm
soc_monki wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:39 am
ease of disassembly
Image
Looks like he loaded 300 blackout into a 556 chamber. Or got bad ammo and didn't inspect it before he filled his mags. Saw pictures of a guy who blew up his Daniel defense that way. Projectiles were seated too deep, and the necks were bulged. But he still loaded them...? Goes to show you having an expensive rifle doesn't mean you know what you're doing.

For it to come apart though...pins weren't installed or the receivers had damage to allow that. Along with bad ammo.

I won't go political on it, because the 2A is for everyone. I've seen plenty of people of all political ideologies doing stupid things with firearms.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#97

Post by TomAiello »

Looking at the gif, it seems more likely to me that the gun was set up to do that, and the shooter knew it. I can't see any other reason to hold it that way.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#98

Post by awa54 »

Coastal wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 5:22 pm
Man, 8.4 lb plus a pound-and-a-half of ammo sounds like BIG weapon. That doesn't include an optic and/or a suppressor.

yeah, that's getting back into the weight range of a full length battle rifle from the WWI-WWII era.

and the training ammo performance isn't so far off of older rounds like 6.5x55 (as loaded for modern actions).
Last edited by awa54 on Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#99

Post by TomAiello »

Is the idea to pair it with M4s as PDWs? Or some other PDW? There are a lot of roles the M4 fills that this just seems too big and heavy for.
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Re: What do you think of the US Army going to the Sig XM5 6.8x51?

#100

Post by Doc Dan »

TomAiello wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:40 pm
Is the idea to pair it with M4s as PDWs? Or some other PDW? There are a lot of roles the M4 fills that this just seems too big and heavy for.
They claim they are going to eventually replace all M4's and other M16 variants with it. The new rifle is really short without the muzzle brake/suppressor combo on the end. I think they are going to end up with a milder recoiling one for some scenarios. A good hint is that they just developed the 6mm ARC which is an amazing round.
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