Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

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Takuan
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#841

Post by Takuan »

Aikido was my first martial art back in the mid-'90s (though I've mainly practiced Jeet Kune Do and Jiu-Jitsu for the past couple of decades). My Aikido instructors, David Shaner (in the U.S.) and Koichi Tohei (in Japan) talked a lot about ki (気/氣; or qi in Chinese, as you mention above). Shaner and Tohei understand ki as "body-mind coordination" (心身統一 shinshin tōitsu) rather than as a type of mystical power. The word ki gets used in Japanese all the time to mean "energy" (e.g., genki 元氣 means "health," and denki 電気 means "electricity"). Thus, an internal martial arts practitioner might be someone who is highly coordinated and full of vigor, like Helio Grace practicing Jiu-Jitsu in his 90s. When I trained with Tohei-Sensei, he was 78 years old (if memory serves) and moved like a guy in his forties. I hope I'm as coordinated as Tohei and Gracie when I'm "elderly."

I remember reading about that mountain lion case a little while ago on BJJ World, though they were careful to point out that it was a juvenile cat and they showed a picture of the runner's mauled face in the ER (probably to prevent students looking for a stripe on their white belts from seeking out confrontations with pumas ;) ). When facing wild animals, I prefer OC spray over BJJ!
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James Y
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#842

Post by James Y »

Takuan wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 2:59 pm
Aikido was my first martial art back in the mid-'90s (though I've mainly practiced Jeet Kune Do and Jiu-Jitsu for the past couple of decades). My Aikido instructors, David Shaner (in the U.S.) and Koichi Tohei (in Japan) talked a lot about ki (気/氣; or qi in Chinese, as you mention above). Shaner and Tohei understand ki as "body-mind coordination" (心身統一 shinshin tōitsu) rather than as a type of mystical power. The word ki gets used in Japanese all the time to mean "energy" (e.g., genki 元氣 means "health," and denki 電気 means "electricity"). Thus, an internal martial arts practitioner might be someone who is highly coordinated and full of vigor, like Helio Grace practicing Jiu-Jitsu in his 90s. When I trained with Tohei-Sensei, he was 78 years old (if memory serves) and moved like a guy in his forties. I hope I'm as coordinated as Tohei and Gracie when I'm "elderly."

I remember reading about that mountain lion case a little while ago on BJJ World, though they were careful to point out that it was a juvenile cat and they showed a picture of the runner's mauled face in the ER (probably to prevent students looking for a stripe on their white belts from seeking out confrontations with pumas ;) ). When facing wild animals, I prefer OC spray over BJJ!

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Takuan!

👍

I remember reading the mountain lion story before it was clarified that the cat was a juvenile, and that it wasn't a BJJ technique that actually killed it. Before that update came out, some writers were insinuating that BJJ is a good defense even against mountain lions.

Personally, I would also choose a spray, preferably bear spray, against wild animals, over any type of empty-handed martial arts skills.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#843

Post by Takuan »

The hardest part about choking a mountain lion using BJJ techniques is that pumas absolutely refuse to wear a gi. :winking-tongue
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#844

Post by James Y »

And they never clip their toenails!

😁

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#845

Post by Takuan »

:grin-squint And they always bite. Even UFC 1 made that illegal!
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#846

Post by James Y »

Takuan wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:26 pm
:grin-squint And they always bite. Even UFC 1 made that illegal!

True, true! 😁

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#847

Post by James Y »

Key Points to a Preemptive Knockout!

As stated in earlier posts featuring his videos in this thread, Lee Morrison is one of the absolute best in the field of street combatives. He also has a ton of real-world experience to back it up.
This information is critical for when there are no other options (escape, avoidance, talking down, etc.), and physical action is unavoidable. Having bad intentions and non-telegraphic movement when striking (among other things) are a must.

https://youtu.be/Ldd9mlKnTNE

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#848

Post by James Y »

Geoff Thompson on Learning to Kill People

Don't let the title of the video turn you off. He does discuss that, but more as a segue into speaking about expanding one's consciousness beyond violence, which is the best part of the video. I especially like when he discusses fear of success, which few people even think is a real thing, much less discuss it. But having experienced that myself at times, I can certainly relate to what Geoff is talking about.

Geoff Thompson is one of my all-time favorite martial arts personalities. He went from working the doors at some of England's most dangerous clubs, having been the victor in well over 300 real fights during the course of his job, yet left that life behind to become a successful author, as well as a spiritually self-aware human being.

https://youtu.be/ll_5vGlqv04

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#849

Post by James Y »

Street Fighting Doorman: Tricks of the Trade

Dennis Jones is another with a ton of experience in real fights. This type of preemptive KO punch is NOT a boxing or kickboxing punch. This type of punch is intended to KO someone, bare-fisted, to end a real threat when violence is inevitable; preferably before the fight has begun, and before the opponent is ready for it.

https://youtu.be/Y14UsC8R5fU

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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#850

Post by James Y »

Preemptive Striking (with Tony Somers)

https://youtu.be/No12XVYASdY

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#851

Post by James Y »

Chuck Norris vs Louis Delgado (1960s)

East coast Karate fighter Louis Delgado both defeated and lost to Chuck Norris (Delgado was the last fighter who beat Norris in competition). Unlike some believe, Chuck Norris was never a professional full-contact kickboxer, but was a Karate tournament fighter, even though he was labeled as professional Karate champion. Chuck Norris was considered among the greatest American Karate fighters of the 1960s.

Louis Delgado was far less famous than Chuck Norris, but he was also one of the greatest Anerican Karate fighters of that era.

Note: For all those who think that Chuck Norris would have squashed Bruce Lee in a real fight or sparring match: Louis Delgado actually free-sparred with Bruce Lee in a private setting, and Bruce Lee dominated Louis Delgado. From what I heard, the sleeve of Delgado's gi top was torn up after their match. Delgado even stated, "I have never seen anyone like Bruce Lee. I have met and sparred with several Karate men, but Bruce has been the only one who has baffled me completely. I am completely in awe when I fight with him." This quote was from the mouth of Louis Delgado himself, who had nothing to gain from talking up Bruce Lee.

Take what you will from the above account, but this was from a genuinely tough guy who fought Chuck Norris more than once in competition, and also sparred hard with Bruce Lee. Delgado also fought many of the other great American Karate fighters of that era, including Joe Lewis and Thomas LaPuppet.

https://youtu.be/dEG8OysQJsM

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#852

Post by James Y »

Joe Rogan on Whitey Bulger's Death

*Three videos below.

I'm posting this because Rogan has some interesting things to say about his Tae Kwon Do days, and teaching and sparring with some very bad guys who were associated with Bulger. One of whom took one of Rogan's full-force kicks to the head, and still wanted to back get up and fight him. There are people like that out there who are very difficult to dissuade or stop. And Rogan's kicks are excellent, and very powerful. His kicks are better than the majority of the fighters whose fights he commentates.

I've also included a couple more videos of Joe Rogan demonstrating his kicks. Many people are aware that he trains BJJ, but many don't know that back in the day, Rogan was a Tae Kwon Do instructor. Back in the '70s and '80s, many people could kick like that. Nowadays, it's very rare to see young martial artists with this type of combination of power AND perfect technical form/precision. Especially like Rogan's lead leg side kick, which was one of my own favorite techniques. This quality of kicking technique is becoming a lost art.

Note: These videos (or a couple of them) contain some strong language, and the first video contains some gruesome discussion of certain crimes.

https://youtu.be/2AkdWvFIHA8

https://youtu.be/AAxz0gLMx6Q

https://youtu.be/oWC6x4Qqwe4

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#853

Post by James Y »

3 Primal Urges Men MUST Learn to Control

This is all 100% correct. He says that the tribalism tough guy mentality can land you in prison; I would add that it can also land you in the hospital, or the morgue. I know of at least two separate occurrences in my general area alone, of 20-something year-old 'tough guys' who started testosterone-fueled ego fights for no good reason, and got themselves killed. One was a former AAU wrestling champion, and the other was an MMA practitioner. Both were stabbed to death. I've mentioned both of these incidents earlier in this thread, and the death of the wrestler, Dusty Harless, was featured on an episode of Forensic Files (which also went by the title Medical Detectives); you can find the embedded video on page 2 of this thread.

https://youtu.be/PmpbHMM_6vY

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#854

Post by James Y »

Kung Fu Isn't a Martial Art (video below)

Everything he says in this video is 100% true. TBH, I myself often use the term Kung Fu when referencing Chinese martial arts as a whole, because it's tiring to always write out or say 'Chinese martial arts', and 'CMA' means nothing to people who don't practice Chinese martial arts. And many people will know what you're referencing when you say 'Kung Fu'. Yet still, most do not really comprehend.

I can say that the Chinese systems I practice, or have practiced in the past, have included Choy Lee Fut (which is the surnames of two of founder Chan Heung's teachers, and 'Fut,' which is the Cantonese pronunciation of 'Buddha'), Tanglang Quan (Mantis Fist), Chang Quan (Long Fist), and Lung Ying (Dragon Shape).

The Chinese martial arts as a whole are the most misunderstood in all of martial arts, even among many Chinese. People see videos of a Chinese MMA fighter named Xu Xiaodong destroying fake 'Kung Fu masters' and therefore label all Chinese martial arts and practitioners as useless. Which is a very childish mentality. As childish as someone seeing a wrestler beat up a poorly-trained boxer, calling that boxer a boxing master, and saying that all boxers are therefore useless. Unfortunately, the subject of martial arts in general tends to bring out this bizarre, immature, tribalistic mentality, even in supposedly "grown-@ssed adults'.

The actual term for Chinese martial arts as a category is Zhongguo Wushu (literally, Chinese martial arts). Unfortunately, since the late 1950s/early 1960s, the term 'Wushu' (martial arts) has been appropriated and come to be associated with China's standardized, performance-based sport of Wushu, which has nothing to do with actual fighting. It is more akin to gymnastics floor exercises, and is based purely on appearance of form and difficulty of execution, instead of functionality. Before he became a movie star, Jet Li was a Wushu champion in China as a boy, and has admitted that in real life, he doesn't actually know how to fight.

The sport of Wushu was developed during a time when Mao was actively working to destroy the functional fighting aspect of Chinese martial arts, so as to suppress anything that might foster a spirit of resistance or rebellion, since in the past, many Chinese martial artists in secret societies had formed militias that actively worked to overthrow the Qing (Ching, or Manchu) Dynasty/government. During the 1966 - 1976 Cultural Revolution in Mainland China, many of the legitimate martial arts masters in China were imprisoned and/or killed.

There ARE practitioners of Chinese martial arts who can fight, and fight very well. I've had the good fortune to have trained under, and alongside, some of them. If you're looking for functionality in ANY martial art, Chinese style or not (but especially Chinese styles), you must choose your teachers wisely.

'Kung Fu' is the old Wade-Giles romanization of Gongfu, which is the newer, more accurate pinyin romanization method developed in Mainland China. Bruce Lee used to spell it 'Gung Fu' in English. But in actuality, the character 'gong' in Gongfu/Kung Fu/Gung Fu almost sounds like the word 'go' but 'deeper in the throat', and adding an 'ng' to it.

When I lived in Taiwan, they were still using the older Wade-Giles method of writing Chinese words in English

https://youtu.be/rJfQQId_bHs

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#855

Post by James Y »

Why Samurai Hardly Used the Katana

https://youtube.com/shorts/lvJXh2-Gi_g?feature=share

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#856

Post by James Y »

Is Jackie Chan As Famous in China As He is in the West?

*Video Below.


I could have posted this video in the 'Favorite Movie Fight Scenes' thread, but Ramsey Dewey barely even talks about Jackie Chan here. What he does discuss a lot of is people over-valuing black belt ranks, black belt egos, fake black belts, etc.

The highest rankings I myself ever achieved were a 1st-degree black belt in Kenpo Karate, a teacher's-level in Tanglang Quan (Northern Praying Mantis Fist, which had no belt ranking system), and a 2nd-degree black sash in Choy Lee Fut. I never really cared about belt rankings, and the black belt and black sash rankings I did earn were hard-earned.

When I tested for black belt in Kenpo, my teacher flunked me twice. After a period of months, I finally passed on the third try. And you had to hard spar the entire school, one after the other, each for an indeterminate amount of time, for the final part of the test, when you were already exhausted. I was 17 and the youngest student my Kenpo teacher ever even considered testing for black belt at that time. He didn't pass out belt rankings like candy.

The same with my sash rankings in Choy Lee Fut. The tests were hard. In fact, my 2nd-degree black sash test was even harder than my 1st-degree test, which I had heard wasn't going to be the case.

My point in mentioning this is that not all belt ranking systems outside of BJJ are easy, or just handed out like candy or participation trophies. IMO, black belt rankings, and whatever degree of black belt one may be, means little to me personally. Some of the toughest guys I sparred with in my life had no belt ranks at all. A 5th degree or 8th degree, or whatever degree of black belt, does not confer magical powers. In most cases, higher black belt degrees are mostly honorary anyway, given because someone has taught for a long time and has contributed something to the art.

I don't walk through life thinking "I'm a black belt; I'm better than you. Don't mess with me." Those rankings are something I was deemed to have met certain standards for back then, and nothing more. I don't base my identity or self-worth on having a black belt or a black sash. They're only pieces of cloth. In the end, you're only the sum of your experiences and whatever you are now, in the present moment. I've also studied many other arts/methods, and have also drawn from many experiences from outside of systematized martial arts, that have helped shape who I am. I place myself above nobody, and always live by the rule, Never Underestimate Anyone.

As far as if kids should be awarded black belts; if the rank is supposed to mean anything, then IMO, someone should be 16 years old at the bare minimum, and REALLY earn it. I've seen 8 year-old kids with black belts at events, which is ridiculous.

As far as Jackie Chan goes, he came from nothing, literally worked his way up from the bottom, and through decades of hard work, became one of the most successful, prolific, and longest-lasting movie stars in history (60 years in the film industry this year). In so doing, he has broken nearly every bone in his body (and nearly died multiple times) for his craft. What he has accomplished in the movie business will never be equalled. He's earned his due many times over, even if he is decades past his peak years. SO WHAT if he was never a cage fighter, or a real fighter? Neither Ramsey Dewey nor anybody else is in any position to criticize JC in terms of his career and his accomplishments. In spite of all that, Jackie Chan's attitude is far more humble and down-to-earth than any of those who question his legitimacy, or his right to be where he's at.

https://youtu.be/Lh4pJ24xOJw

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#857

Post by Cobblet »

twinboysdad wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:27 pm
Cobblet wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:38 pm
Thought I'd throw in my two cents here, though it's not much for experience. I took about six months each of jits and kickboxing (muay thai specifically). Obviously you can't get much accomplished in such a short amount of time, but I really enjoyed both and there's not much better workout you'll find. The people were really mellow too ... something about fighters and people that train a lot, they don't really feel the need to play tough guy in the gym. It was a pleasant surprise and good group of people.
Found the very same in my days at a BJJ school that had actual fighters, and see it at my son’s wrestling club that has legit D1 kids that attend. Those kids are chill and regular kids but will shake on some hot sauce if a kid gets cocky or disrespectful
Good point and I noticed that too. Anyone that was going too hard would find themselves matched up against someone that would make sure they got it back. Definitely helped keep things geared toward training and weed out the bad apples.
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#858

Post by max808 »

James Y wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 10:21 am
Martial Arts: “Internal” vs “External”?

Warning: This is a long, rambling post. :sleeping :smiling-cheeks

For anyone who has REALLY delved into the subject of martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, you will undoubtedly hear the words ‘neijia’ (internal) and ‘waijia’ (external) to describe various systems. In general, there are three systems that are considered the ‘big three’ internal systems: Taijiquan (also spelled Tai Chi Chuan), Xingyiquan (Hsing-I Chuan), and Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chang). There are others as well, such as Liuhe Bafa (6 Harmonies, 8 Methods), etc. In Japanese martial arts, Aikido can be considered an ‘internal’ system.

So what is the difference between “internal” and “external” martial arts? To oversimplify it, internal systems develop and strengthen the qi (chi, or life force energy) first, and then move on to “external” practices; whereas the so-called “external” systems develop the physical body first, then develop their qi (or don’t develop their qi at all). This is an oversimplification, but you get the point. According to beliefs among many“internal” martial artists, “external” systems never develop the qi and only deplete it over time; therefore “external” practitioners invariably age badly, and their skills evaporate, while internal stylists do not.

First, let me say that “qi”, or “chi” (“ki” in Japanese; “prana” in Sanskrit) is a real thing. There is no question about it. It is life force. Restoring and maintaining its proper flow is what acupuncture is based on. Now, can you FIGHT with it? I don’t know. I’m not one to say it’s impossible, BUT…even top masters of so-called internal styles in past times who actually fought stated that physical contact was absolutely necessary in fighting. Even a Taoist master I mentioned earlier in this thread (or in my ‘Unusual and/or Paranormal Events thread) who could project his qi and cause internal injury from a distance, did not consider qi projection to be a valid fighting or self-defense technique, and he’d had lots of real fighting experience as a young man. Even if using qi in a fight means the directing of qi is enhancing your physical body's ability to strike with greater power and to take destructive blows without physical damage, many of the 'qi power' proponents themselves seem unwilling or unable to show such outside of controlled demonstrations, which means their claims of internal superiority may or may not have any validity. If someone punches with greater power, is it 'qi,' or is it proper technique, proper body mechanics/most efficient use of body mass and weight shift, combined with focused intent? Could that intent be classified as directing of one's qi energy? In that case, Mike Tyson must be an 'internal' master.

Do “internal” practitioners always age better/more gracefully, and maintain their skills better than, so-called “external” practitioners? Let’s see. In Taiwan, I used to see an old master of Xingyiquan who sometimes still taught his students, but mostly went to a park to sit with his friends, who were fellow old teachers from China, who all taught different systems. One day he came to the park early with his wife before the other teachers arrived, and he collapsed. I ran over and helped his wife get him to his feet. He’d already been showing signs of what appeared to be dementia, and possibly Parkinson's disease. When his friends arrived, they took over and helped him. None of those other teachers were “internal” stylists, and they were all about his same age (their late 70s to early 80s) and all were in excellent health. In fact, one of those friends hadn’t practiced Kung Fu since he was a young man, but had been a weight lifter in China before fleeing to Taiwan in the late 1940s/early 1950s). But he walked a lot everyday. He could walk circles around the Xingyiquan master. As could an old former Beijing Opera star, who could still balance on one leg and hold his other leg up with his foot over his head, and also still did basic somersaults. And another, who was a master of Yingzhaoquan (Eagle Claw). None of whom practiced an “internal” system.

When former boxer Jack Dempsey was 75 or 76 years old, he was accosted by two young muggers outside of his restaurant in New York City, and he knocked out both of them.

There are old former boxers (who are “external” athletes) who have aged gracefully, both physically and mentally. And then there are other boxers (and other combat athletes) who start degenerating at a young age, for obvious reasons (CTE), or just plain letting themselves go once their fighting careers are over.

The whole “internal/external” concept really took off in the early 20th century, when some scholars in China started taking up Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang, and started writing books about those arts. Most of those scholars were not fighting men of their era, and practiced mainly for health purposes, as scholarly types in China were stereotypically weak and frail men. The vast majority of the real masters were illiterate. Naturally, the scholars played up the benefits and “higher level” of their systems over the supposedly inferior “external” Shaolin (and other) systems in the books they wrote, often with over-exaggerated or outright fictional stories of “internal” masters performing miraculous feats, such as masters sending opponents flying 30 feet away with an effortless push, and even levitating onto roofs.

This is not to say that there is no validity to internal/external, but those actually refer to the level of one’s development, and not some super power vs mere muscle power. It also referred to whether you were an “inner door” student or a “common” student. In times past, martial arts in China (and Japan, and probably many other countries), “common” students received only the rudimentary teachings until they proved themselves and could be trusted; while “inner door” students received the “real” or “true” teachings and finer points of the applications. If you were an “inner door” student, you were “internal,” and if you were not, you were outside of the inner circle, therefore, “external.”

In reality, high-level practitioners of ANY martial art can display aspects of qi development, even if that wasn’t their main focus (or wasn’t their focus at all). There are some Karate masters that display “qi”/“ki” development at a higher level, and age better, than some Taijiquan/Tai Chi practitioners. Regardless of what martial art you practice, or if you don’t practice any, how one ages is dependent on many factors. Genetics, lifestyle, environmental factors, attitude, and sometimes perhaps pure luck (although what ‘luck’ actually is, who knows?). And maybe a million other things. I’ve heard of masters with reportedly high-level qigong development who died fairly young (50s or 60s) of diseases. And others who lived healthy lives to ripe old ages. The fact is, everybody is going to age regardless, and some people will do so better than others.

It is human nature that everybody wants to say that their method is better than all the rest. That attitude is alive and well today. A few years back, there was a news story about a lone hiker who strangled a mountain lion that had attacked him. Many BJJ pundits read “strangled” and immediately assumed “BJJ/rear naked choke.” They believed for a while that BJJ is a viable way to defend one’s self from a mountain lion attack, and there were articles written about how BJJ can protect you on the trail from wild animals. Until the full story came out from the hiker himself, who supposedly ‘strangled’ an attacking mountain lion in self-defense. It turned out that the mountain lion was a lone, starved cub that attacked him, and he had killed it by stepping on its neck. And he didn’t know BJJ. But the narrative of many BJJ practitioners when the story first came out was that the hiker had used BJJ to kill a mountain lion. Which is every bit as much fantasy BS as any story about an “internal” master with super powers.

Jim

Thanks for another fascinating history lesson Jim, you've been on a roll lately. I'll have to reread your posts about a dozen more times before I can fully process even half the knowledge you dropped.

Would you yourself consider aikido an internal system? Considering its open hand techniques largely focus on defense and using your opponent's energy against them, where iaido is all about brutal offense and efficiency like tamashigeri where you draw and cut preemptively in one fluid motion. These two seemingly opposing philosophies appear to go hand in hand like yin & yang... aikido's mission statement being to reconcile the world.

There's some amazing documentaries on YouTube about tamahagane, which I accidentally searched for yamahagane, a freudian slip I guess...
:cheap-sunglasses
Which brings me to my original reason for posting here, Jiri "Budo Viking" Prochaszka went to war with Teixeira for 5 rounds and got taken down what seems like a dozen times. UFC probably wouldn't appreciate me posting a video but you can easily find it online. In one of his training videos Jiri demonstrates some katas with what appears to be a Spyderco commissioned Seki-City katana... or maybe I'm just seeing things. :smiling-heart-eyes

Have a great week Jim and stay safe out there!

max
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Do more than is required of you . Patton
For man's only weapon is courage that flinches not from the gates of Hell itself, and against such not even the legions of Hell can stand. Robert E. Howard
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#859

Post by James Y »

max808 wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:00 pm
James Y wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 10:21 am
Martial Arts: “Internal” vs “External”?

Warning: This is a long, rambling post. :sleeping :smiling-cheeks

For anyone who has REALLY delved into the subject of martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, you will undoubtedly hear the words ‘neijia’ (internal) and ‘waijia’ (external) to describe various systems. In general, there are three systems that are considered the ‘big three’ internal systems: Taijiquan (also spelled Tai Chi Chuan), Xingyiquan (Hsing-I Chuan), and Baguazhang (Pa Kua Chang). There are others as well, such as Liuhe Bafa (6 Harmonies, 8 Methods), etc. In Japanese martial arts, Aikido can be considered an ‘internal’ system.

So what is the difference between “internal” and “external” martial arts? To oversimplify it, internal systems develop and strengthen the qi (chi, or life force energy) first, and then move on to “external” practices; whereas the so-called “external” systems develop the physical body first, then develop their qi (or don’t develop their qi at all). This is an oversimplification, but you get the point. According to beliefs among many“internal” martial artists, “external” systems never develop the qi and only deplete it over time; therefore “external” practitioners invariably age badly, and their skills evaporate, while internal stylists do not.

First, let me say that “qi”, or “chi” (“ki” in Japanese; “prana” in Sanskrit) is a real thing. There is no question about it. It is life force. Restoring and maintaining its proper flow is what acupuncture is based on. Now, can you FIGHT with it? I don’t know. I’m not one to say it’s impossible, BUT…even top masters of so-called internal styles in past times who actually fought stated that physical contact was absolutely necessary in fighting. Even a Taoist master I mentioned earlier in this thread (or in my ‘Unusual and/or Paranormal Events thread) who could project his qi and cause internal injury from a distance, did not consider qi projection to be a valid fighting or self-defense technique, and he’d had lots of real fighting experience as a young man. Even if using qi in a fight means the directing of qi is enhancing your physical body's ability to strike with greater power and to take destructive blows without physical damage, many of the 'qi power' proponents themselves seem unwilling or unable to show such outside of controlled demonstrations, which means their claims of internal superiority may or may not have any validity. If someone punches with greater power, is it 'qi,' or is it proper technique, proper body mechanics/most efficient use of body mass and weight shift, combined with focused intent? Could that intent be classified as directing of one's qi energy? In that case, Mike Tyson must be an 'internal' master.

Do “internal” practitioners always age better/more gracefully, and maintain their skills better than, so-called “external” practitioners? Let’s see. In Taiwan, I used to see an old master of Xingyiquan who sometimes still taught his students, but mostly went to a park to sit with his friends, who were fellow old teachers from China, who all taught different systems. One day he came to the park early with his wife before the other teachers arrived, and he collapsed. I ran over and helped his wife get him to his feet. He’d already been showing signs of what appeared to be dementia, and possibly Parkinson's disease. When his friends arrived, they took over and helped him. None of those other teachers were “internal” stylists, and they were all about his same age (their late 70s to early 80s) and all were in excellent health. In fact, one of those friends hadn’t practiced Kung Fu since he was a young man, but had been a weight lifter in China before fleeing to Taiwan in the late 1940s/early 1950s). But he walked a lot everyday. He could walk circles around the Xingyiquan master. As could an old former Beijing Opera star, who could still balance on one leg and hold his other leg up with his foot over his head, and also still did basic somersaults. And another, who was a master of Yingzhaoquan (Eagle Claw). None of whom practiced an “internal” system.

When former boxer Jack Dempsey was 75 or 76 years old, he was accosted by two young muggers outside of his restaurant in New York City, and he knocked out both of them.

There are old former boxers (who are “external” athletes) who have aged gracefully, both physically and mentally. And then there are other boxers (and other combat athletes) who start degenerating at a young age, for obvious reasons (CTE), or just plain letting themselves go once their fighting careers are over.

The whole “internal/external” concept really took off in the early 20th century, when some scholars in China started taking up Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang, and started writing books about those arts. Most of those scholars were not fighting men of their era, and practiced mainly for health purposes, as scholarly types in China were stereotypically weak and frail men. The vast majority of the real masters were illiterate. Naturally, the scholars played up the benefits and “higher level” of their systems over the supposedly inferior “external” Shaolin (and other) systems in the books they wrote, often with over-exaggerated or outright fictional stories of “internal” masters performing miraculous feats, such as masters sending opponents flying 30 feet away with an effortless push, and even levitating onto roofs.

This is not to say that there is no validity to internal/external, but those actually refer to the level of one’s development, and not some super power vs mere muscle power. It also referred to whether you were an “inner door” student or a “common” student. In times past, martial arts in China (and Japan, and probably many other countries), “common” students received only the rudimentary teachings until they proved themselves and could be trusted; while “inner door” students received the “real” or “true” teachings and finer points of the applications. If you were an “inner door” student, you were “internal,” and if you were not, you were outside of the inner circle, therefore, “external.”

In reality, high-level practitioners of ANY martial art can display aspects of qi development, even if that wasn’t their main focus (or wasn’t their focus at all). There are some Karate masters that display “qi”/“ki” development at a higher level, and age better, than some Taijiquan/Tai Chi practitioners. Regardless of what martial art you practice, or if you don’t practice any, how one ages is dependent on many factors. Genetics, lifestyle, environmental factors, attitude, and sometimes perhaps pure luck (although what ‘luck’ actually is, who knows?). And maybe a million other things. I’ve heard of masters with reportedly high-level qigong development who died fairly young (50s or 60s) of diseases. And others who lived healthy lives to ripe old ages. The fact is, everybody is going to age regardless, and some people will do so better than others.

It is human nature that everybody wants to say that their method is better than all the rest. That attitude is alive and well today. A few years back, there was a news story about a lone hiker who strangled a mountain lion that had attacked him. Many BJJ pundits read “strangled” and immediately assumed “BJJ/rear naked choke.” They believed for a while that BJJ is a viable way to defend one’s self from a mountain lion attack, and there were articles written about how BJJ can protect you on the trail from wild animals. Until the full story came out from the hiker himself, who supposedly ‘strangled’ an attacking mountain lion in self-defense. It turned out that the mountain lion was a lone, starved cub that attacked him, and he had killed it by stepping on its neck. And he didn’t know BJJ. But the narrative of many BJJ practitioners when the story first came out was that the hiker had used BJJ to kill a mountain lion. Which is every bit as much fantasy BS as any story about an “internal” master with super powers.

Jim

Thanks for another fascinating history lesson Jim, you've been on a roll lately. I'll have to reread your posts about a dozen more times before I can fully process even half the knowledge you dropped.

Would you yourself consider aikido an internal system? Considering its open hand techniques largely focus on defense and using your opponent's energy against them, where iaido is all about brutal offense and efficiency like tamashigeri where you draw and cut preemptively in one fluid motion. These two seemingly opposing philosophies appear to go hand in hand like yin & yang... aikido's mission statement being to reconcile the world.

There's some amazing documentaries on YouTube about tamahagane, which I accidentally searched for yamahagane, a freudian slip I guess...
:cheap-sunglasses
Which brings me to my original reason for posting here, Jiri "Budo Viking" Prochaszka went to war with Teixeira for 5 rounds and got taken down what seems like a dozen times. UFC probably wouldn't appreciate me posting a video but you can easily find it online. In one of his training videos Jiri demonstrates some katas with what appears to be a Spyderco commissioned Seki-City katana... or maybe I'm just seeing things. :smiling-heart-eyes

Have a great week Jim and stay safe out there!

max

Greetings, and many thanks for the kind words, Max!

TBH, I'm not qualified to discuss Aikido, because I literally have no experience with it. Nor do I have any experience with Iaido.

My former Kenpo teacher also teaches Aiki-Jujutsu, among various other things, but I never studied it under him. Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujutsu is the art that Aikido was originally developed from, but Ueshiba changed it when he created Aikido, due to his involvement in a spiritual order, and a spiritual awakening. That's all I know about Aikido (meaning i know nothing), other than demos I've seen. There is a world-class Aikido dojo just down the street from my home, which I've visited in the past, but I've never been interested in studying Aikido. I've also never taken part in an "exchange," or sparring, with an Aikidoka, so I cannot opine how that would have gone.

As for Iaido, my Shito-ryu Karate sensei is also a master of Iaido, but again, I never studied Iaido when I was in his dojo.

While I might mention a certain art in a certain context, but I cannot claim what it is or is not without at least some experience with it. I do respect all arts. But to answer your question, based on what Takuan has posted about Aikido in this thread, and what I've heard from some Aikido teachers over the years, I would classify it as an internal system, as that term is used.

Thanks, I will look up that Jiri Prochaszka video on YouTube. I highly doubt that you would get in trouble with the UFC for embedding a YouTube video here.

You stay safe as well, Max.

Jim
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Re: Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

#860

Post by Takuan »

Aikido was my first martial art. I trained in it from 1995 until 1999 and earned the rank of ikkyu (brown belt). I was about one month away from my scheduled black belt test when I quit. I originally got into martial arts after seeing Royce Gracie in UFCs 1 and 2, but there was no Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu available in my town, so I trained in the only martial art available on my college campus, which was Aikido. My instructors were great and I learned some good things from them: ukemi (how to fall safely), lots of joint locks, meditation techniques, kiatsu (pressure point therapy similar to shiatsu), etc. I also got to go to Japan for a summer and train there, which was fun.

After I had been training for a couple of years, I had begun to suspect that Aikido wasn’t the most effective martial art for realistic self-defense. About that time, I met a guy who was a brown belt in a non-traditional style of Japanese jujitsu who utterly dominated me in sparring: he could take me down and submit me at will, all without putting a scratch on me (i.e., he was doing exactly what Aikido aims to do, but better). I immediately became his student. Jujitsu led me to take up Jeet Kune Do so that I’d have some kickboxing and weapons skills to go with my grappling. After I had been training jujitsu for a little over a year and JKD for just under a year, I was attacked by a paranoid schizophrenic who had gone off his meds and had a psychotic break. I learned later that he had a long history of criminal violence. Fortunately, I was able to avoid his strikes, get to the clinch, throw him (osoto gari), establish mount, get him to roll face-down, and submit him with a rear naked choke. Even though he was attempting every foul tactic in the book (e.g., groin shots, gouging, biting, etc.), I was able to avoid his attacks and neutralize him without harm to either of us. I asked the judge to commit him to a mental hospital rather than send him to jail so he could get the help he needed.

At the end of the fight, I realized that I hadn’t used one Aikido technique even though I was about one month away from earning my black belt. I had no rank whatsoever in JKD or jujitsu, and those were the arts I depended on when my life was on the line. After some soul-searching, I quit Aikido and focused only on JKD and jujitsu. I finally found a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu teacher a few years later after moving to Hawaii. I’m currently a Level 3 Instructor in JKD and a first-degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I also hold a second-degree black belt in judo through USA Judo.

I told you all of that so that I could make this point. I think that Aikido is a wonderful art if your main goal is self-cultivation through the study of a traditional art form. It is not an effective martial art for self-defense if you haven’t had any training in other styles, though. Somebody who is a skilled kickboxer and grappler with a strong MMA background might be able to make some Aikido techniques work (e.g., I wrist lock people on the ground in jiu-jitsu a lot), but Aikido by itself isn’t terribly effective. There are three big problems with the way they train from a self-defense perspective: (1) their main goal is not self-defense, but rather self-cultivation through the study/preservation of a Japanese art, so their training methodologies are designed to promote a different goal than realistic fighting skill; (2) they typically don’t train to be complete fighters in all ranges of combat (kickboxing, clinch, and ground), with an without realistic weapons (guns, knives, and sticks); and (3) they don’t train using progressive resistance (sparring against a skilled, fully resisting opponent). Apparently, Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, only accepted students who had earned dan rank in other styles like judo, jūjutsu, karate, etc. He figured that you needed to get the fighting out of your system first so that you could learn the spiritual lessons he was trying to impart.

I hope this doesn’t offend anyone, since that’s not my goal and I’m coming at this from an insider’s perspective. I just think that martial artists need to be realistic about what is and is not self-defense. For example, I love judo, but it’s not a fighting system; it’s a competitive sport. I’ve had to adapt what I learned there to make it effective for self-defense.

This guy has an interesting YouTube channel about his journey from Aikido to MMA: https://youtu.be/0KUXTC8g_pk. It reminds me a bit of my own journey, though I didn’t train in Aikido nearly as long as he did before getting my wake up call.
"We cannot live better than in seeking to become better."
--Socrates
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