CryptoCurrencies?

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JD Spydo
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CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:56 pm

After reading the one thread about "Cash" I got inspired to do this one. Ever since the inception of "BitCoin" I've been so curious about "CryptoCurrencies". I wish I knew more about them because something in my gut tells me that many of these newer types of currencies could hold some great potential. But I'm just in the dark about how to redeem them and how to acquire them and who all trades with them.

CryptoCurrencies are a new animal in the financial world and I'm betting that some of you guys from overseas and some of you guys in the financial industries probably could shed some light on these CryptoCurrencies. The only one I know anything at all about is the "BitCoin". And I've more recently noticed that more and more merchants ( especially on the internet) are starting to accept them and trade with them. I love the appeal of doing buying and selling internationally and I can see the advantages how these newer currencies could hold their value better than many national currencies.

Let's all put our heads together and talk about these CryptoCurrencies. I was also amazed when I did a Google search as to how many of the CryptoCurrencies are out there already. OK let's talk about BitCoin and other new currencies.

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VooDooChild
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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby VooDooChild » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm

There are a lot of issues with cryptocurrency.

Philisophical issues, ethical issues, physical issues, and volatile/uncertainty issues as well.

But it also seems it will be a commonplace or unavoidable currency option as time goes by.

I sure would have loved to have been somebody who got in early and made a killing.

I think part of the issue right now is IF a big breakthrough in quantum computing is on the horizon, then you could essentially "break" every current crytocurrency, essentially making them worthless. This is a big IF.

Even if that did happen its not that the idea is unsound, its just that you would then need quantum cryptocurrency as opposed to standard.

Furthermore, god forbid an entirely electronic economy had to go without power for a couple weeks. Like after a natural disaster or whatever.

If you can make some money off it then certainly go for it. But the viability of the idea itself is a lengthy conversation.
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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby Naperville » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:27 pm

If I had cash to invest, it would be in spiders of the various trading indexes. I worked at the Board of Trade in the 80's and after that I swore off gambling with my money. A CryptoCurrency would be too much of a gamble for me.

That said, I do plan on getting a wallet and getting some Bitcoin to pay for things that do not work with Visa and MC. They can be useful. But I do not plan for any investments, just a few purchases.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Native Chief, Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC), Nightstick, Yojumbo.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby Naperville » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
...god forbid an entirely electronic economy had to go without power for a couple weeks. Like after a natural disaster or whatever.
There are investments on can make in silver, gold, and platinum that I plan to get one day.

Valcambi Suisse Gold/Platinum/Silver bars that fit in your wallet!
https://www.valcambi.com/products-and-m ... ombibarTM/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcMs4kTzdUU&feature=em-uploademail
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Native Chief, Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC), Nightstick, Yojumbo.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby RustyIron » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:38 pm

JD Spydo wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:56 pm
Let's all put our heads together and talk about these CryptoCurrencies.
It's a form of currency, but you can't really use it to buy the things you want. I don't get it.

People get some of it by running computer programs on their computers, and if they're lucky, they hit the jackpot and win a few bucks. I don't get it.

The value seems to be based on the moods of speculators, who make money trading in the currency, but not actually using it. It's almost like Pokemon cards. I don't get it.

Warren Buffett said that he doesn't invest in things that he doesn't understand. That makes good sense. I don't understand Bitcoins, so I'm not going to buy any.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:04 pm

This is a very interesting article by Nobel Prize winning Economist FA Hayek. It predates crypto currency (it was written in 1977, before widespread personal computers) but it basically outlines a similar set of ideas.

https://fee.org/articles/hayeks-free-market-money/


If you're interested in the technical details of how Bitcoin (and may other cryptocurrencies work) the definitive source is the Bitcoin white paper:

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf



I actually have a pretty solid understanding of how cryptocurrencies work. Anyone who is 'investing' in them is making a huge mistake.

The best use case for them is bypassing the traditional (which in this case means vintage 1800s) 'technology' of international wire transfers. Transfers that take banks days or weeks and cost hundreds of dollars can be done via crypto networks for a few dollars, in a few seconds. The best example of this is Veem, which is a crypto based wire transfer service (the crypto back end is invisible to the normal user, who only sees normal fiat currency denominations).

The other good use case is store of value (like gold), and that one is very interesting. Fiat money (dollars, euros, etc) are a terrible store of value because they are engineered to suffer continuous inflation, making them terrible savings vehicles. Bitcoin (just one example, but the most common one), on the other hand, is designed to have continuous deflation (it becomes more valuable over time, because the rate of supply increase falls), making it a much better savings vehicle. Better savings vehicles should encourage saving on a macro level (savings is generally discouraged in the modern economic system).

In neither case should cryptocurrency be viewed as an investment. The huge speculative swings resulting from people pouring money in hoping to 'hit the jackpot' are actually very counterproductive to the actual real world use cases.


If you have money and want to invest, a broad based, low fee index fund like Vanguard's Total Stock Market Index (VTSAX or VTI as an ETF) is a much better option that cryptocurrencies.

Side note: I use crypto for business purposes (sending and receiving payments) and it drives me crazy that this is viewed as an 'off book' use by the IRS, who want to tax me on the payments I receive as if they are capital gains, rather than business income (which is what they are).

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:21 am

This is actually some great input thus far. And it's close to what I expected. I particularly like the one reference to Warren Buffet who said he didn't invest in things he didn't understand. It took years before he even got into his first high tech investment ( Apple Computer). But he was cautious and extremely wise about it. He didn't dive in on the initial hype. And you can't argue with the vast success that Mr. Buffet has enjoyed over the years.

I'm still interested in the concept of cryptocurrencies. But I've yet to determine who makes the market in such things? I don't understand how to redeem a BitCoin or any other CryptoCurrency in the event that I would make a profit on the investment. Those things immediately bring up red flags to me and for the time being seem to have "SCAM" written all over them.

It is amazing at how fast that BitCoin has grown in popularity. I also find it rather interesting that so many vendors will now take BitCoin for payment. So my jury is still out and I am open to learn more. But I'm not ready to dive it just yet.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 am

Naperville wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm
VooDooChild wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
...god forbid an entirely electronic economy had to go without power for a couple weeks. Like after a natural disaster or whatever.
There are investments on can make in silver, gold, and platinum that I plan to get one day.
I have always liked precious metals. After all they are "real money". The metals have been real money since the dawn of civilization. The metals will always have an intrinsic value and are usually redeemable even in bad times. All of the money spoken about in the Bible or Quran were all based on precious metals.

With that said it's an investment I don't feel anyone can go wrong with over time. There was a currency a while back that was traded by a few people and was gaining popularity until the government busted the guys involved in it. I'm speaking of the "Liberty Dollar" which was popular for a short time until Uncle Sam decided he didn't want the competition. I still don't understand what law they broke but the legal system has gotten so corrupt that I doubt I ever will. I've wondered if that was a type of CryptoCurrency? I think they were mainly trading on the spot price of Silver from what I gathered but I'm not totally sure. Because those coins I heard were bullion Silver.

My main fear so far is if the Bit Coins themselves have any intrinsic value? I kind of doubt it from what I've heard so far. It smells like a sophisticated scheme so far.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby Naperville » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm

JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 am
I have always liked precious metals. After all they are "real money". The metals have been real money since the dawn of civilization. The metals will always have an intrinsic value and are usually redeemable even in bad times. All of the money spoken about in the Bible or Quran were all based on precious metals.
Those "combi cards" that I linked too are handy if the SHTF. Depending on the precious metal, you can break off parts of the card in $1 increments, or on the gold card in $50 increments.

I find coins good too, but you have to get small ones, because trade will be done in values under $100 increments.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Native Chief, Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC), Nightstick, Yojumbo.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:39 am

Naperville wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:09 pm
JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 am
I have always liked precious metals. After all they are "real money". The metals have been real money since the dawn of civilization. The metals will always have an intrinsic value and are usually redeemable even in bad times. All of the money spoken about in the Bible or Quran were all based on precious metals.
Those "combi cards" that I linked too are handy if the SHTF. Depending on the precious metal, you can break off parts of the card in $1 increments, or on the gold card in $50 increments.

I find coins good too, but you have to get small ones, because trade will be done in values under $100 increments.
That's just more than interesting "Naperville" and I wish I had a handle on these financial markets better than I currently do. I'm going to look into this new type of card that you showed us. I'm surprised that someone hasn't introduced a trading currency similar to that a long time ago. Because it's like I said in the last post >> Precious metal is "REAL MONEY" >> even if it's only representative of gold, silver or other metals that is still head & shoulders above all these fiat currencies that many countries are presently using :confused: . How people have fallen for these Federal Reserve Notes and their fake value for as long as they have is really baffling to me. Because I've been questioning this funny money ever since I was in high school and that's been a while :D . You would think with all the brilliant scholars and all the think tanks we have in this country that someone would have been shouting off the roof tops at how phony the present money system is.

If people ever come to the realization that the money we use here in the USA is similar to "Monopoly Game Board Money" the whole show is going to collapse like a row of dominoes :rolleyes: . It's hard to believe that the scheme has lasted as long as it has :rolleyes: . Obviously there are at least a few people that realize it or these newer cryptocurrencies or even that card you showed us would not have come about. Because the government agents sure went after those guys trading those "Liberty Dollars" in a very quick hurry. Makes you wonder what got them so upset in such a hurry huh :rolleyes: ?

We sure have interesting times ahead ( if not treacherous times ahead :eek: ) in terms of currency exchange.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby Naperville » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:59 am

@JD Spydo, could not have said it any better myself.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Native Chief, Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC), Nightstick, Yojumbo.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:35 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:21 am
But I've yet to determine who makes the market in such things?
Same as an any other market. The people who buy and sell.

I don't understand how to redeem a BitCoin or any other CryptoCurrency in the event that I would make a profit on the investment.
If you are viewing this as an investment to make money on, then you probably don't understand Crypto enough to buy it. Treating it as a speculative investment is a major mistake.

You can sell crypto for fiat money on many exchanges, but the easiest and most seamless service for doing that is Coinbase (https://www.coinbase.com), which is the world's largest simple bitcoin exchange. It has easy purchase/sale options, allows you to directly transfer fiat money (dollars) to and from your bank account, and holds dollars on account with FDIC insurance (same as your bank).

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:54 am

TomAiello wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:35 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:21 am
But I've yet to determine who makes the market in such things?
Same as an any other market. The people who buy and sell.

I don't understand how to redeem a BitCoin or any other CryptoCurrency in the event that I would make a profit on the investment.
If you are viewing this as an investment to make money on, then you probably don't understand Crypto enough to buy it. Treating it as a speculative investment is a major mistake.

You can sell crypto for fiat money on many exchanges, but the easiest and most seamless service for doing that is Coinbase (https://www.coinbase.com), which is the world's largest simple bitcoin exchange. It has easy purchase/sale options, allows you to directly transfer fiat money (dollars) to and from your bank account, and holds dollars on account with FDIC insurance (same as your bank).
Let me clearify myself a bit here Tom >> when I was asking about who or possibly what entity made the market in Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies I was trying to determine maybe what group of people or what business entity or what corporation actually got that product off the ground to begin with. Because it would seem to me that they must have been a corporation or a big group of business people who thought it up and got it off the ground to begin with. At least that's my hunch anyway. There must have been a relatively big business plan involved in all of this as well>> at least that's my thinking anyway.

Also they must have really looked over the legal aspects of a cryptocurrency as well. Because like I alluded to about the guys that were dealing in those "Liberty Dollars" those guys obviously didn't cover their rear ends very well legally because the government pounced on them quickly. I never heard the ultimate outcome but I suspect that the guys involved must have gotten some jail time or at the very least got a "cease and desist order" for all the trading in Liberty Dollars. Cause I've not heard anything else about that venture in quite some time now.

I was thinking that there must be some kind of exchange involved which would make trading in Bitcoin liquid to some degree? Because from what I've been told Bitcoin is also an international venture as well as being traded here in the USA. Also there would have to be a clearinghouse type operation to sort out everything between the various national currencies as well as other cryptocurrencies? Or am I barking up the wrong tree :o ?

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:05 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 am
Naperville wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm
VooDooChild wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
...god forbid an entirely electronic economy had to go without power for a couple weeks. Like after a natural disaster or whatever.
There are investments on can make in silver, gold, and platinum that I plan to get one day.
I have always liked precious metals. After all they are "real money". The metals have been real money since the dawn of civilization. The metals will always have an intrinsic value and are usually redeemable even in bad times.
The 'intrinsic' value of gold is largely set by demand for it as a 'money'. There isn't a real industrial use for gold that comes anywhere near to justifying it's market value. Basically, it's valued because people value it, so they are willing to pay for it. The same exact thing goes for Bitcoin, or art, or collectibles like vintage Spyderco knives (for people who collect them in the boxes and don't use them). The intrinsic value of most things is directly related to the utility value (what you actually use them for). But the market value is set by supply and demand, and for some things the utility value and market value are miles apart. Gold is a great example of widely divergent valuations.

As a value store, money is basically a giant ledger being used to track each persons net 'credits' and 'debts' to the greater economy (basically society as a whole). Whether we keep our ledger with gold, dollars, bitcoin, or something else isn't really that important. In the end, it's what the rest of the market values it at that sets its value.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:14 am

Double Post deleted.
Last edited by TomAiello on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:16 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:54 am
Let me clearify myself a bit here Tom >> when I was asking about who or possibly what entity made the market in Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrencies I was trying to determine maybe what group of people or what business entity or what corporation actually got that product off the ground to begin with.
It was a group of computer hackers, basically.

The only known progenitor was a guy named Hal Finney (who is deceased now) who was a computer programmer. He was also a contractor on US government cryptography and communication systems. His work product was actually sufficiently advanced that the US government (today) still classifies much of it as a weapon of mass destruction that is banned from export.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finne ... scientist)


The other major progenitor was the anonymous person using the name 'Satoshi Nakamoto'. There is much speculation about who this might have been (the best guess from the intewebz is a guy named Nick Szabo) but no one has every been able to verify his identity. If you want to have your mind blown, though, try to read through some of Szabo's blog. It's really amazingly intelligent and futuristic stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo



Bitcoin is very different from most cryptocurrency in this way. Most cryptocurrencies have well known and documented developers. For example, the world's "number 2" crypto is Ethereum, and it's widely known that it was mostly developed by a team led by Vitalik Buterin, supported by research grants and personnel from a wide variety of major technology and financial corporations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalik_Buterin

https://entethalliance.org/eea-members/



If you're interested in the history of bitcoin, there is an excellent book on the topic:

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Gold-Bit ... 006236250X


As well as a documentary that does a good job of chronicling it:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5033790/

The documentary is free to stream on Netflix.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby VooDooChild » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm

As Tom said, at its core, the entire economy, regardless of currency, is essentially made up, if you dont degenerate into a trade system.

Even gold, has truly little value. (There are some space applications for gold but nobody was predicting that before the modern era.)

Here is a wonderful thought experiment. If I offered a dying man in the desert 10 pounds of gold, or 10 pounds of water, which would he take?

I think the big issue with cryptocurrency is still its unpredictability.

Furthermore, and I wish I could find the recent article for this. But the first privately funded quantum computer that can overcome current cryptographic systems, will (more than likely), be built for breaking cryptocurrency.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby TomAiello » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:50 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:40 pm
Furthermore, and I wish I could find the recent article for this. But the first privately funded quantum computer that can overcome current cryptographic systems, will (more than likely), be built for breaking cryptocurrency.
I'm guessing someone will just come up with revisions to the crypto code to increase difficulty to quantum levels.

It's also nowhere near certain when a workable quantum computer will be developed. My guess is substantially after a vaccine for COV-SARS2, but who knows? Technological progress, by it's nature, is unpredictable.

Money is basically a concept of shared trust. Money is valuable because we (generally) agree that it is valuable. That's pretty much the whole thing.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:50 am

TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:05 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:30 am
Naperville wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm
VooDooChild wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
...god forbid an entirely electronic economy had to go without power for a couple weeks. Like after a natural disaster or whatever.
There are investments on can make in silver, gold, and platinum that I plan to get one day.
I have always liked precious metals. After all they are "real money". The metals have been real money since the dawn of civilization. The metals will always have an intrinsic value and are usually redeemable even in bad times.
The 'intrinsic' value of gold is largely set by demand for it as a 'money'. There isn't a real industrial use for gold that comes anywhere near to justifying it's market value. Basically, it's valued because people value it, so they are willing to pay for it. The same exact thing goes for Bitcoin, or art, or collectibles like vintage Spyderco knives (for people who collect them in the boxes and don't use them). The intrinsic value of most things is directly related to the utility value (what you actually use them for). But the market value is set by supply and demand, and for some things the utility value and market value are miles apart. Gold is a great example of widely divergent valuations.

As a value store, money is basically a giant ledger being used to track each persons net 'credits' and 'debts' to the greater economy (basically society as a whole). Whether we keep our ledger with gold, dollars, bitcoin, or something else isn't really that important. In the end, it's what the rest of the market values it at that sets its value.
Hey Tom didn't gold used to have a lot of uses in the Dental trade in recent years? I'm fairly certain it is still used in dentistry to some degree because I often see people with some type of gold dental fixture in their mouth. I've also heard that gold has a few specialized electronic uses.

Now my brother is a technician for electronic instruments for a company he works for. He told me some time back that he was surprised that the spot price for platinum fell below gold. Because he said that platinum and metals in the platinum group ( palladium, iridium, rhodium, ruthenium ect) were in demand for specialized high tech electronic uses and that their demand was steadily growing. With that said it's now making me wonder how these markets are ultimately manipulated :confused: . Yeah I realize that "supply & demand" propel all markets but something else seems to be at play with these cryptocurrencies.

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Re: CryptoCurrencies?

Postby The Meat man » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:59 am

Cash does have value. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to forward all of their "worthless" federal reserve notes to my address. :p :D

Cash may not have intrinsic value like precious metals but that doesn't mean it has no value at all.
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