Ice-pick edge out grip

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Luvbug
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Ice-pick edge out grip

#1

Post by Luvbug »

I have recently read that one should only use the sabre grip with larger blades. Futher, the recommendation for using a smaller blade for purposes of self defense was a reverse (ice-pick?)edge-out grip. This seems like a very awkward grip to me. Reach seems diminished, the ability to stab effectively seems more difficult, even slashing (except across the body) seems awkward.



Any opinions on proper grip for smaller blade SD?
Qship
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#2

Post by Qship »

At the risk of being pedantic, some people distinguish between a sabre grip, an epee grip and a Filipino grip. I take it when you say sabre grip, you mean any grip where the blade comes out of the thumb side of the hand. Let's call that standard grip.

I think grip depends more on distance than blade size. I mostly practice with blades 3.5 inches or less, because that is what I am likely to have. If I am jammed up, reverse grip works better than standard grip for me. I seen people do good close range work with a full sized Japanese sword in reverse grip, so I would not rule out reverse grip with a long blade.

If you think there might be trouble, you have drawn your knife, and you are hiding it behind your wrist, you are in reverse grip. If you draw a fixed blade from a belt sheath, you are probably in reverse grip. So, it is a good idea to know how to fight with the grip you have. And, since you may come up against someone who fights reverse grip, it is good to understand the strengths and limitations.

Standard grip gives me more reach if I have the space to make that relevant. Unless my back is against a wall, I prefer standard grip, period. But reverse grip works, and it works well.

I am curious about where you read this advice, and who gave it.

Qship
Dijos
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#3

Post by Dijos »

I believe James Keating covers this in his "Drawpoint" series. Reverse Grip has its advantages, and disadvantages, like any grip. The awkwardness leaves with practice..

Learning Can Be a Painful Experience
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Jimd
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#4

Post by Jimd »

The Reverse Grip is an extremely effective grip. I've seen it used in actual Close Quarters Battle on a couple of occasions, and I can testify that it worked each and every time.

As I've said many times before, stab wounds are generally more serious than slash wounds because they penetrate, causing more bleeding and often hitting organs. Not that slashes are harmless, that's not what I'm saying.

I've seen a number of people who have been killed with knives (actually saw one WHILE he was being killed), and without exception, the dead guys were all had stab wounds.

I've also seen some mighty nasty slash wounds,as well.

Overall, and depending upon the circumstances, the Reverse Grip is my favorite. I'd very likely choose it if I was forced to defend myself with one of my knives. I've seen it's actual application and have been convinced of its effectiveness.

Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Joe Talmadge
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#5

Post by Joe Talmadge »

Before you judge reverse grip, you might get some instruction in a system that really uses it. I dislike the reverse grip you described (edge out), but have really adopted reverse grip edge-in (AKA pakal grip). Pakal may seem awkward if you're not sure what you're doing, but my offense became much more effective once I got competent instruction in using a pakal grip. Pakal is a mostly-thrusting grip, whereas reverse grip edge out is often used with mostly slashing.

For longer blades, I stick to forward grip.

One particular view on pakal can be found here: http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp
Click on the bottom PSP, called "Expression of Pikal".

Joe

Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 11/22/2003 12:46:06 AM
Rex G
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#6

Post by Rex G »

Reverse grip is particularly useful for very close range encounters, especially in confined spaces. Some prefer the edge to be out, toward the opponent, while others prefer the edge to be "in" toward the user. Bram Frank explains the time and place for foreward and reverse grips quite well in his latest instructional DVD set. Bram does not like reverse grip with the edge "in" but SouthNarc, seen at the Shivworks site, is a proponent of the Pikal grip, which is edge "in" and the knife held in reverse grip, with the knife perpendicular to the arm. Both of these instructors are, IMHO, correct, and neither is wrong. I have learned personally from both, and want more personal instruction from both. Michael Janich's next video set will address reverse grip, and I look forward to seeing his methods.
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#7

Post by Jimd »

One of the main reasons I like the reverse grip with the blade out is that the knife can be held in your fist and jabbed in a punching motion.

In this manner, the blade can slash or stab, making it versatile. The grip is very powerful, reducing the chances of the knife being disarmed from the user.

Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Qship
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#8

Post by Qship »

"In this manner, the blade can slash or stab, making it versatile."

Right on. There is a tendency to think of reverse grip as adapted primarily to slashing, but that is not necessarily the case. Assuming you are right handed, if you are bringing the knife from your right to left, and your palm is down, you are slashing. If your palm is up, you are stabbing. The stabbing move is familiar to anyone who uses a hammer fist. Some lines, 6 and 7 for example, favor reverse grip for stabbing.

And, some Japanese techniques use a two hand push for reverse grip stabbing, with the left palm cupped over the butt of the knife and the thumb side of the right hand to increase power. This is particularly useful against someone in armor. Which used to be a problem for Japanese in the Samurai business.

Qship
lunumbra
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#9

Post by lunumbra »

James Keating's Drawpoint series were the first video's that I actually took the time to practice. They are well laid out, with a good drill progression. Probably the single best source for reverse grip instruction, short of extensive training with an experienced instructor.

There is one speed bump. Early in the series Keating is using the blade edge in, and then he moves on to drills where the blade needs to be edge out. Look closely, use common sense. All of the drills will work with the edge out, but some will not work edge in. (Cover and Slash being the obvious example.)

Have fun, Stay safe
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#10

Post by Michael Janich »

Thanks to everyone for a very cool thread.

In my opinion, the primary ingredient needed for reverse-grip tactics is the skill and the will to work up close. Once you've developed that commitment through proper training, you will have the ability to fight the way you trained.

One of the most revealing points in this thread, in my opinion, was Joe's statement that his OFFENSIVE skills got a lot better once he learned the tactics of Pakal grip. I've been asked about the edge-in Pakal grip a lot in MBC seminars. From an offensive perspective, it's devastating. If you attack and the opponent doesn't block, he's stuck. If he does block, you draw cut and try to stick him somewhere else. Result: It truly sucks to be him. The only problem with this approach when it comes to self-defense, however, is the legal issue regarding your intent. Obviously, surviving an attack is priority #1 and you shouldn't be so PC that your techniques won't actually work. At the same time, you need to structure your personal system so you can justify your actions as self-defense. Personally, I find that harder to do with the Pakal grip.

If you are a fan of reverse grip and are looking for a training resource, my video set "Mastering Fighting Folders" will be out in January. It covers my entire reverse-grip curriculum (which is focused on the edge-out grip) including all the drills: Trap and Roll (rotary picking), Cover and Slash (including a "gutless" version that focuses on defanging actions), Palisut, etc. It also integrates all the drills of the first two volumes of the series into a comprehensive skill set. "Mastering Fighting Folders" is a two-tape set that is also available on DVD. Please check paladin-press.com for availability.

Thanks again to everyone for a great discussion.

Stay safe,


mike j
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