would a serrated edge cut less deeply then a plain edge if one were slashing ? do the serrations cause less penetration during a slash. i would think stabbing would be equal between the 2.
thanks, i carry both, just curious.
also is there anywhere on the web where carrying left and right hand is covered, i know i saw an issue of TK were an instructor taught carrying a pair of folders one on either side.
also, what about the enduras for MCB ?
serrated vs plain edge for defense ?
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MACGYVER44203
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Mr Blonde
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SE vs PE, that one is easy! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
construct a testing medium (e.g. rolled newspaper/cardboard/meat with clothing over it) and start (careful!) cutting it with both the PE and SE knife, which were both sharp to begin with. Now you are testing exactly what works for you with your knives. I had the same question many moons ago, and figured I´d just do a little testing of my own. I carry both too, but prefer PE for droppoint and clippoint style knives. For hawkbills, I prefer SE since the blade design is going to give me a little drag anyway, so I´d just as well take the serrations. Serrations also offer edge protection when hitting belt buckles and the like. Still, I prefer PE for the lower drag feeling when cutting.
Both PE and SE cut very well when sharpened, in my case equally deep. I just felt a little more drag when using SE knives. The Delica series of knives are great for MBC experiments, left/right carry SE versus PE etc..
Wouter
construct a testing medium (e.g. rolled newspaper/cardboard/meat with clothing over it) and start (careful!) cutting it with both the PE and SE knife, which were both sharp to begin with. Now you are testing exactly what works for you with your knives. I had the same question many moons ago, and figured I´d just do a little testing of my own. I carry both too, but prefer PE for droppoint and clippoint style knives. For hawkbills, I prefer SE since the blade design is going to give me a little drag anyway, so I´d just as well take the serrations. Serrations also offer edge protection when hitting belt buckles and the like. Still, I prefer PE for the lower drag feeling when cutting.
Both PE and SE cut very well when sharpened, in my case equally deep. I just felt a little more drag when using SE knives. The Delica series of knives are great for MBC experiments, left/right carry SE versus PE etc..
Wouter
Well done Mr. Blonde! Push forward and figuring it out for yourself!
Some people say they have trouble getting SE's to cut through clothing woven with heavy fibers, like wool. Supposedely the serrations will snag. . . . I have not carried out an experiment yet. (come to think of it, I have only partially serrated blades . . . . not the best for such a test . . . mmm have to deal with that.)
Just something to think about.
Lunumbra
Some people say they have trouble getting SE's to cut through clothing woven with heavy fibers, like wool. Supposedely the serrations will snag. . . . I have not carried out an experiment yet. (come to think of it, I have only partially serrated blades . . . . not the best for such a test . . . mmm have to deal with that.)
Just something to think about.
Lunumbra
If you are faced with someone wearing, say, a heavy, metal studded leather jacket, you might be better served by stabbing into the arm with the point and cutting out. That solves the problem with either edge type. That said, serrated edges seem popular with experts.
I carry a plain edge because it is better suited to my every day chores, and serrations are hard to sharpen without special tools. I sharpen frequently.
But, there are other considerations. If I had to cut much synthetic rope, or if I were in the business of flying in helicopters, and worried about cutting through the skin of the aircraft if it went down on the door, I would carry a serrated, or half serrated, blade.
I carry two knives. If someone grabs your wrist, a knife on the other side of your body simplifies cutting him off you. It is possible that your strong side will be injured in a fight, so access to a second knife on the off side is a useful precaution. When my wife dresses up, she clips her Native in her handbag. She can get to it fairly fast, but it is quicker to hand her my Native if a problem arises. While this has caused discussion before, a spare knife makes knife throwing a viable course of action. If someone wants to borrow a knife, I hand them my Native. I still have a knife, and I avoid the wide eyed reaction that producing a Tempest sometimes causes. And, if you carry a sidearm strong side, having a second knife's clip set up for off side carry means you have two knives anyway.
I think blade geometry is more important than edge type. All together, now. Yojimbo! Yojimbo! Yojimbo!!!
Qship
I carry a plain edge because it is better suited to my every day chores, and serrations are hard to sharpen without special tools. I sharpen frequently.
But, there are other considerations. If I had to cut much synthetic rope, or if I were in the business of flying in helicopters, and worried about cutting through the skin of the aircraft if it went down on the door, I would carry a serrated, or half serrated, blade.
I carry two knives. If someone grabs your wrist, a knife on the other side of your body simplifies cutting him off you. It is possible that your strong side will be injured in a fight, so access to a second knife on the off side is a useful precaution. When my wife dresses up, she clips her Native in her handbag. She can get to it fairly fast, but it is quicker to hand her my Native if a problem arises. While this has caused discussion before, a spare knife makes knife throwing a viable course of action. If someone wants to borrow a knife, I hand them my Native. I still have a knife, and I avoid the wide eyed reaction that producing a Tempest sometimes causes. And, if you carry a sidearm strong side, having a second knife's clip set up for off side carry means you have two knives anyway.
I think blade geometry is more important than edge type. All together, now. Yojimbo! Yojimbo! Yojimbo!!!
Qship
I agree that stabbing is a good tactic to use if you are under lethal attack. In fact, stabbing is what I would nearly exclusively recommend if you are attacked by someone who is seriously trying to harm or kill you.
Many cuts are not going to effectively stop your attacker, as they require precision that is going to be very difficult to achieve in a life-or-death encounter.
Stabbing, on the other hand, utilizes more gross motor skills, and is a much more powerful technique, which makes it more difficult for your attacker to stop or defend against.
In all the knife fights I've witnessed or participated in, stabbing caused the more serious wounds, and stopped attackers more effectively. I'm basing my opinion on my personal experiences.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Many cuts are not going to effectively stop your attacker, as they require precision that is going to be very difficult to achieve in a life-or-death encounter.
Stabbing, on the other hand, utilizes more gross motor skills, and is a much more powerful technique, which makes it more difficult for your attacker to stop or defend against.
In all the knife fights I've witnessed or participated in, stabbing caused the more serious wounds, and stopped attackers more effectively. I'm basing my opinion on my personal experiences.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
"Many cuts are not going to effectively stop your attacker, as they require precision that is going to be very difficult to achieve in a life-or-death encounter."
For the sake of discussion, a case can be made for slashing as a one cut stop.
If you stab someone in a less than instantly fatal area, he may die soon, but he may live long enough to kill you first. If, however, you slash the inside of the attacker's arm, severing the flexor tendons, he will be mechanically unable to hold a weapon, which will solve a whole lot of problems for you, immediately. There is no delay between cutting the tendons and him dropping the weapon. If you get the radial artery in the process, his best bet is to use his other hand to compress the cut so as not to bleed to death. This further de-escalates the threat.
Working on the theory that the edge of my knife is bigger than the point, I find it easier to slash an attacking wrist than to stab it. So, for what I want to do, a slash requires less precision.
Techniques vary.
Qship
For the sake of discussion, a case can be made for slashing as a one cut stop.
If you stab someone in a less than instantly fatal area, he may die soon, but he may live long enough to kill you first. If, however, you slash the inside of the attacker's arm, severing the flexor tendons, he will be mechanically unable to hold a weapon, which will solve a whole lot of problems for you, immediately. There is no delay between cutting the tendons and him dropping the weapon. If you get the radial artery in the process, his best bet is to use his other hand to compress the cut so as not to bleed to death. This further de-escalates the threat.
Working on the theory that the edge of my knife is bigger than the point, I find it easier to slash an attacking wrist than to stab it. So, for what I want to do, a slash requires less precision.
Techniques vary.
Qship
Qship: If, however, you slash the inside of the attacker's arm, severing the flexor tendons, he will be mechanically unable to hold a weapon, which will solve a whole lot of problems for you, immediately. There is no delay between cutting the tendons and him dropping the weapon. >>>
It is true that slicing certain tendons will cause a limb to become useless. I also agree that this is a good tactic.
With that said, I also have to say that, during an actual, life-threatening knife fight, in which your attacker is truly trying to kill you, it's easier said than done.
I've been involved in some of these types of encounters, and I will assure anyone that the real event is far different than training. Most people (including myself) experience the effects of adrenaline, such as: Auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, the sensation of time slowing down (slow motion), and incredible strength.
These effects make it very difficult to hit a small area. I have never witnessed a knife fight in which the participants took the time to slash a wrist or arm (though I acknowledge that they likely weren't trained to do so). I have witnessed a few throat cuttings, in which the victim was ambushed and the intended target was the throat. Interestingly, none of the throat slashings I saw were fatal.
Normally, when an aggressor attacks a victim with a knife, he lunges in, flailing, often holding the knife in an ice-pick grip, stabbing. It's nearly impossible to block such stabs, contrary to what most martial arts styles tell us. It's also **** tough to cut his wrist or arm under such circumstances because his arm is moving so quickly, and there's a good chance that the victim has already been stabbed.
From my experience, knife fighting is not nearly as complicated as most people make it out to be. Knowing a gazillion moves, as some instructors advocate, just makes things more difficult and dangerous.
That's just my take on things.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
It is true that slicing certain tendons will cause a limb to become useless. I also agree that this is a good tactic.
With that said, I also have to say that, during an actual, life-threatening knife fight, in which your attacker is truly trying to kill you, it's easier said than done.
I've been involved in some of these types of encounters, and I will assure anyone that the real event is far different than training. Most people (including myself) experience the effects of adrenaline, such as: Auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, the sensation of time slowing down (slow motion), and incredible strength.
These effects make it very difficult to hit a small area. I have never witnessed a knife fight in which the participants took the time to slash a wrist or arm (though I acknowledge that they likely weren't trained to do so). I have witnessed a few throat cuttings, in which the victim was ambushed and the intended target was the throat. Interestingly, none of the throat slashings I saw were fatal.
Normally, when an aggressor attacks a victim with a knife, he lunges in, flailing, often holding the knife in an ice-pick grip, stabbing. It's nearly impossible to block such stabs, contrary to what most martial arts styles tell us. It's also **** tough to cut his wrist or arm under such circumstances because his arm is moving so quickly, and there's a good chance that the victim has already been stabbed.
From my experience, knife fighting is not nearly as complicated as most people make it out to be. Knowing a gazillion moves, as some instructors advocate, just makes things more difficult and dangerous.
That's just my take on things.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com