Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

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Wartstein
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#101

Post by Wartstein »

Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
Yeah I'm pretty certain that the design process of the Para 3 probably never even included the word "Delica" in the conversation, it's just a smaller Para 2 and in that way it's everything it should be. The blade matches the Para 2's thickness in part because the lock needs that thickness but also because it matches the Para 2. I have no doubt there are people who appreciate the extra sturdiness of the Para 3 who can't legally carry a Para 2, and I think that's ultimately the point here. It's a smaller, length law compliant version of the Para 2.

Agreed almost completely.
It is a perfect smaller PM2 indeed, if the goal was to keep the Para 3 as close to the PM2 as possible.

I think though what this thread is about is why the extreme hype around this knife faded a bit, and not at all that it would be a "bad folder"!

And I still could imagine this "fading" is because more people realized that the Para 3 is a bit more of a niche knife than Sage or Delica, exactly because it keeps that PM2 features, originally designed for a larger folder.

The "most-people-can-agree-on" small folder probably is not about that "extra sturdiness" (that has no practical relevance anyway, cause I don´t think anyone ever uses a Para 3 with its thick blade, but comparably fine tip for stuff a Sage 5 could not take).
And the one thing I don´t fully agree: The comp.lock does not need 3.7 mm bladestock to be strong enough, does it? The Sage has "only" 3 mm for example, and there are 2.5 mm stock comp.locks out there too...

Anyway, the Para 3 IS a good knife, and I actually did like my LW SE variant! Just still not the small Spydie I personally would keep when I can have Delica, Native, Sage or Chap.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#102

Post by Ramonade »

The one I used the most is my S30V Para 3.

In hand, I love it.
In use, it's blade is sometimes inadequate for some tasks (for me), it sometimes struggles compared to my Maxamet PM2.

By curiosity I just checked and the BTE thickness on my Para 3 is not outrageous at all after a reprofiling and like 10 sharpenings : 0.020". The surprising thing is I just mesured my Maxamet PM2 and it is 0.013,5" to 0.015" (taken at heel, middle and tip). It's a factory second so it might be the reason :open-grin.

My Para 3 Maxamet which has been on cardboard duty for something like 2 years is still shredding like a boss, without ever "breaking" the cardboard instead of cutting it.
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#103

Post by Wartstein »

James Y wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:40 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
...
..... Its cutting performance is the same as if you only used the first 2.62" of the Military's or PM2's edges to cut with, yet nobody says that the Military or the PM2 are lacking in the cutting department. Being shorter in length doesn't magically make its blade and edge geometry more obtuse and a worse cutter.
...
Technically it does, right? I don´t know if this is noticeable in real use (probably not much), but the shorter the blade, the more obtuse the "tapering angle" gets if the tapering goes even and straight from heel to tip and all else (blade height, shape, thickness..)is exactly the same - ?

In other words: If one measures the blade thickness for example 1" behind the tip on a Para 3 it should be a bit thicker there than a Millie is 1" behind the tip?
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#104

Post by Mushroom »

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:27 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
Yeah I'm pretty certain that the design process of the Para 3 probably never even included the word "Delica" in the conversation, it's just a smaller Para 2 and in that way it's everything it should be. The blade matches the Para 2's thickness in part because the lock needs that thickness but also because it matches the Para 2. I have no doubt there are people who appreciate the extra sturdiness of the Para 3 who can't legally carry a Para 2, and I think that's ultimately the point here. It's a smaller, length law compliant version of the Para 2.
It is a perfect smaller PM2 indeed, if the goal was to keep the Para 3 as close to the PM2 as possible.
That was the goal. That is exactly what the Para 3 set out to be. Evil D’s description is spot on, in my opinion.
-Nick :bug-red
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#105

Post by Wartstein »

Mushroom wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:27 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
..
It is a perfect smaller PM2 indeed, if the goal was to keep the Para 3 as close to the PM2 as possible.
That was the goal. That is exactly what the Para 3 set out to be. Evil D’s description is spot on, in my opinion.
I am with you, it definitely is, that´s why I "almost completely agreed" in my previous post with David (only point I did not necessarily: That the comp.lock would need the 3.7 mm stock, I think the Sage shows that 3.0 is thick enough (or even less - Ikuchi...))

/ Like we´ve talked about in another thread (I think it was you and me, not entirely sure): For me there are the "two approaches" of creating a "Lil" (or vice versa "XL") version of a model

- 1.) "PM 2 to Para 3 approach": Basically just making the smaller version shorter, while pretty much everything else remains the same (blade and handle height and - thickness ..)
- this was basicall also done in the "Chief- family", right? (Shaman excluded here)

- 2. "Endura to Delica approach": MOST features get "shrunken" (thinner, less tall handle as well as blade)
-this was kind of also done "from Sage to Chaparral" in a way.

Both valid ways to do it, I think those who call the Para 3 a thhough good, but not their favorite model might be the ones who generally prefer "approach 2"
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#106

Post by nerdlock »

Six pages of this hubbub, I still dunno what you guys are talking about.


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No love lost here. 😋✌️
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#107

Post by James Y »

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:34 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:40 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
...
..... Its cutting performance is the same as if you only used the first 2.62" of the Military's or PM2's edges to cut with, yet nobody says that the Military or the PM2 are lacking in the cutting department. Being shorter in length doesn't magically make its blade and edge geometry more obtuse and a worse cutter.
...
Technically it does, right? I don´t know if this is noticeable in real use (probably not much), but the shorter the blade, the more obtuse the "tapering angle" gets if the tapering goes even and straight from heel to tip and all else (blade height, shape, thickness..)is exactly the same - ?

In other words: If one measures the blade thickness for example 1" behind the tip on a Para 3 it should be a bit thicker there than a Millie is 1" behind the tip?

Yes, I know that the Para 3's blade doesn't taper to as thin at the spine to the tip as the Military's, due to it being shorter. But the geometry at the edge is still thin enough to cut very well. It's only a very subtle difference.

Of my two PM2's, my older one from 2011 has a blade that has a primary grind that is thicker than the second one I bought years later. That first PM2's blade is virtually the same thickness at the spine to the tip as my Para 3's blades. And the edge geometry on my Para 3's are no more obtuse than on that first PM2; in fact, its primary grind at the tip is pretty much the same as my Para 3's. And not too different at the edge than my later PM2, which has a great edge. So the actual edge bevels of my Para 3's are not more obtuse, nor worse at cutting, at least not in my uses.

I'm not saying that everyone has to like the Para 3. But it performs very well at cutting, as befitting a member of the Military/PM2 family.
Much better, in my experience, than some who believe the Para 3's blade stock is too thick, and that it isn't slicey enough, seem to feel. It's in the Military/PM2 family, not in the Delica family, or the Calypso family.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#108

Post by aicolainen »

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:36 pm
Mushroom wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:27 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
..
It is a perfect smaller PM2 indeed, if the goal was to keep the Para 3 as close to the PM2 as possible.
That was the goal. That is exactly what the Para 3 set out to be. Evil D’s description is spot on, in my opinion.
I am with you, it definitely is, that´s why I "almost completely agreed" in my previous post with David (only point I did not necessarily: That the comp.lock would need the 3.7 mm stock, I think the Sage shows that 3.0 is thick enough (or even less - Ikuchi...))

/ Like we´ve talked about in another thread (I think it was you and me, not entirely sure): For me there are the "two approaches" of creating a "Lil" (or vice versa "XL") version of a model

- 1.) "PM 2 to Para 3 approach": Basically just making the smaller version shorter, while pretty much everything else remains the same (blade and handle height and - thickness ..)
- this was basicall also done in the "Chief- family", right? (Shaman excluded here)

- 2. "Endura to Delica approach": MOST features get "shrunken" (thinner, less tall handle as well as blade)
-this was kind of also done "from Sage to Chaparral" in a way.

Both valid ways to do it, I think those who call the Para 3 a thhough good, but not their favorite model might be the ones who generally prefer "approach 2"
That's exactly it.
It's not a bad folder at all. And I don't think anyone is saying that.
Those who wanted a PM2 with a shorter blade, for legal reasons or otherwise, got a very good knife that aligns very well with their preferences.

I'm in the second category. I hoped for the smaller PM2 to be a more pocket friendly alternative, i.e. give up some of the military-esque features and be more civil. Unfortunately it did so only by name.
Ultimately it's Spyderco's decision what they want a new model/version to be. Even I think they made a good knife that I still choose to keep in my selection, but it's something different than I had hoped and as a consequence it also sees much less use than I had in mind.
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#109

Post by Mushroom »

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:36 pm
Mushroom wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:27 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
..
It is a perfect smaller PM2 indeed, if the goal was to keep the Para 3 as close to the PM2 as possible.
That was the goal. That is exactly what the Para 3 set out to be. Evil D’s description is spot on, in my opinion.
I am with you, it definitely is, that´s why I "almost completely agreed" in my previous post with David (only point I did not necessarily: That the comp.lock would need the 3.7 mm stock, I think the Sage shows that 3.0 is thick enough (or even less - Ikuchi...))

/ Like we´ve talked about in another thread (I think it was you and me, not entirely sure): For me there are the "two approaches" of creating a "Lil" (or vice versa "XL") version of a model

- 1.) "PM 2 to Para 3 approach": Basically just making the smaller version shorter, while pretty much everything else remains the same (blade and handle height and - thickness ..)
- this was basicall also done in the "Chief- family", right? (Shaman excluded here)

- 2. "Endura to Delica approach": MOST features get "shrunken" (thinner, less tall handle as well as blade)
-this was kind of also done "from Sage to Chaparral" in a way.

Both valid ways to do it, I think those who call the Para 3 a thhough good, but not their favorite model might be the ones who generally prefer "approach 2"
Yes we've had that conversation before. It wasnt my intention to have it again here, I was simply just affirming the conditional statement you made about the Para 3. A smaller PM2 is what was repeatedly asked for and that is what was given. Beggars cant be choosers. :bug-white-red
-Nick :bug-red
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#110

Post by aicolainen »

vandelay wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:06 pm
2.5" vs 3" is missing the point a bit, IMO. Take these 3 knives for reference. The para 3 dwarfs the other 2 but it doesn't even have the most sharpened edge length. The para 3 is also the only one that I can get a full hand grip on.
I personally use the 5th pocket test to determine what's large. The para 3 is the only one that doesn't comfortably sit in there.
3-inch.jpeg

I also do agree that it's funny what people call large and small. For a long time, I would have called the ladybug small and the dragonfly medium. My perception has changed a bit after spending a long time around modern knives.
I'm sure there are also people that just need a 4" folder for their work, so a para 3 would feel pretty small in comparison.
I agree, even if I just stated in a previous post that even I can agree to the DF2 being small. It really isn't, but in order to establish some common ground, that's how far I'm willing to stretch my definition of "small".

Blade length alone is really a poor qualifier for size categories. In my world (or head) folding knives are primarily just in case knives that I carry for convenience. Ladybugs, Manbugs and DF2s are a good fit for that purpose. I too will very decisively put the LBs and MBs in the small category. Even if they have sufficient blade-/cutting edge length to do what I need them to do, I'm giving up some handling capability in order to keep their size down. It's not like that with the DF2, which manages to provide great grip and control despite being almost as unnoticeable in pocket. Hence it has become my favorite medium small knife.
With knives like the Salt 2/Delica and Native 5 Salt/LW I'm pushing the limits for EDC carry, and that's probably as large as I'm willing to go for convenience carry.

Knives like the P3 and Manix 2 will by some be labeled small knives because of their blade-/cutting edge length, but I'd put them in a different category completely. Let's call them "bridge" knives, because to me they bridge the gap between a folder and a fixed blade. For me it's a narrow use case, but for legal or discretionary reasons they certainly fills a need. To what extent will vary from person to person and their circumstances.
By visual comparison, my mini Bugout has a just a tiny bit more edge length than my P3. I don't consider the mini bugout to be a larger knife, just a different category knife with a different use case.

Some common ground with regards to definitions is obviously a benefit when we try to have meaningful discussions about these things, but ultimately it's very subjective and we'll never have a system of categories and qualifiers that everyone will agree on. Besides life would get very boring if we didn't have the ever reoccurring discussions on what comprises a (sub-compact/)small/medium/large folding knife :)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#111

Post by Evil D »

Mushroom wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:15 am
A smaller PM2 is what was repeatedly asked for and that is what was given. Beggars cant be choosers. :bug-white-red


Well see I want a smaller Para 2. Yeah.


Oh! And let's give it way thinner blade stock. Yeah that'll be great.


Ohhhhh and what about making it a back lock too? I like the compression lock but really prefer a back lock.


Ya know what, I also don't love the choil, the blade shape, the thumb ramp, or liners so if we could just go ahead and change all those too while we're at it.



Sal and the gang sitting at a board meeting reading this forum wondering exactly wtf we actually do want.

Forum - "I want basically the exact same thing as this, but with every detail that makes it that, totally different".

🤔 🤷🏼‍♂️
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#112

Post by Wartstein »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 am
Mushroom wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:15 am
A smaller PM2 is what was repeatedly asked for and that is what was given. Beggars cant be choosers. :bug-white-red


Well see I want a smaller Para 2. Yeah.


Oh! And let's give it way thinner blade stock. Yeah that'll be great.


Ohhhhh and what about making it a back lock too? I like the compression lock but really prefer a back lock.


Ya know what, I also don't love the choil, the blade shape, the thumb ramp, or liners so if we could just go ahead and change all those too while we're at it.



Sal and the gang sitting at a board meeting reading this forum wondering exactly wtf we actually do want.

Forum - "I want basically the exact same thing as this, but with every detail that makes it that, totally different".

🤔 🤷🏼‍♂️

I totally get what you mean and there are quite some threads going excactly like you perfectly describe here :grin-sweat

But this particular thread is just about why it might be that the Para 3 might have (perhaps it even has not) lost some popularity, while still being well liked and a very good option for many.

And I think this partly could be cause those (many!) who wanted a stout small version of the PM2 got just this, and this is great.

Those who´d prefer more a "Endura to Delica" Para 3 - so certainly NOT want a "change of shape, lock, choil,ramp", but an overall a bit smaller and thinner (and not just shorter) version, while keeping the overall shape (lock.. and so on) - did not get that, but have a great option with the Sage for example.

So all good, no one here is complaining about the Para 3 in any way , just discussing why it lost (perhaps) a bit of popularity and (perhaps) a slight shift towards other options is happening.
And I think it can´t be denied that the "Endura to Delica" approach (so adapting the smaller version not only in length, but also a bit in thickness ) is an equally valid one.

So I actually feel that this is a rather respectful and for Spyderco informative thread. No one said at all "I want basically the same thing... but with every detail totally different" (but, again, there ARE these threads, but definitely not this - pretty good -.one, if you ask me) - no one even said I WANT something different, just why some feel the Para 3 hype is declining a bit.

I certainly don´t want or need a smaller PM2 - "my" "smaller PM2" (as a small comp.lock option) does exist already in a perfect form in the Sage 5.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#113

Post by Wartstein »

James Y wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:18 am
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:34 pm
James Y wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:40 pm
Evil D wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:24 pm
...

Yes, I know that the Para 3's blade doesn't taper to as thin at the spine to the tip as the Military's, due to it being shorter. But the geometry at the edge is still thin enough to cut very well. It's only a very subtle difference.

Of my two PM2's, my older one from 2011 has a blade that has a primary grind that is thicker than the second one I bought years later. That first PM2's blade is virtually the same thickness at the spine to the tip as my Para 3's blades. And the edge geometry on my Para 3's are no more obtuse than on that first PM2; in fact, its primary grind at the tip is pretty much the same as my Para 3's. And not too different at the edge than my later PM2, which has a great edge. So the actual edge bevels of my Para 3's are not more obtuse, nor worse at cutting, at least not in my uses.

I'm not saying that everyone has to like the Para 3. But it performs very well at cutting, as befitting a member of the Military/PM2 family.
Much better, in my experience, than some who believe the Para 3's blade stock is too thick, and that it isn't slicey enough, seem to feel. It's in the Military/PM2 family, not in the Delica family, or the Calypso family.

Jim
Thanks for your reply!

Yes, it was only a "technical" remark that by geometry the Para 3 blade towards its tip should be (a bit) thicker than a Millies blade, I don´t think too that this is really much noticable.

Can´t compare (any more) myself -. my Millie and Para 3 are sold, my PM2 is lend to a friend.

All I can say is: My particular Para 3 was just fine in cutting / slicing, but when comparing it to my Salt 2 ffg and Chap not as good as those two. I figure, but did not actually check, this is due to the much thinner blade stock of the latter two (I still have comparison pics of the stocks of the three models from back when I had the Para 3. Might post those later).
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#114

Post by cjk »

Evil D wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 am
...
Forum - "I want basically the exact same thing as this, but with every detail that makes it that, totally different".

🤔 🤷🏼‍♂️
:rofl

I got a big laugh out of this and almost spit coffee at the screen.
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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#115

Post by TkoK83Spy »

He's definitely not wrong! I rarely participate in the wishlist threads because they end up an absolute mess...every...single...time.
15 :bug-red 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut

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Re: Para 3 Lovefest, Where Did It Go?

#116

Post by Wartstein »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:43 am
He's definitely not wrong! I rarely participate in the wishlist threads because they end up an absolute mess...every...single...time.

True for the most part! :grin-smiling-eyes

But the one you started here (this one) is not one of those threads, but really different and an interesting and constructive one imo. :clinking-mugs
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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