"hard use"

[JD Spydo]

For me, my understanding of hard use has centered more on the steel in question - how well will it stand up to what i'm doing? how damaged is it going to get? how difficult will it be to bring it back to 'nominal' condition?

I hear you completely. And I still rate Spyderco's 440V blades from the late 90s to early 2000s as some of their very best fully serrated blades that can endure some really rough treatment. When you've had blades in the quality category like Spyderco and probably about 4 other knife companies I can name off the top of my head>> when you've worked with blades with decent to excellent steel in them you never ever want to go back to the older stuff.

Most of the blade steels Spyderco uses can endure some harsh treatment. I've never before seen a blade steel that can take the punishment like the 440V that Spyderco once used for SE blades. Spyderco's VG-10 in serrated blades can also endure some harsh treatment. Most of the time I highly prefer Spyderco's serrated blades for rough jobs.

[anycal]

Concerning the tip thing. I have never snapped the tip off on any of my Spyderco knives. And I am not shy about sticking a knife into wood, forced or thrown. Most of the tip damage in my cases (less than a handfull) have been at the very tip of the blade. More like the tip of the edge, not necessarily the stock, if that makes sense.

I don't see how a blade shape, comparing PM2 to Manix, or Stretch XL to Manix XL, makes any difference in this scenario. Any of these are equaly likely to sustain the same amount of damage under the same use/accident. I would go as far as to say, with the examples above, that the type of steel and heat treat will play a bigger role than just the blade shape, when it comes to snapping even the first 1/4 inch of the blade.

My hard use knife is my dedicated garage PM2. It has been used for lot of tasks I would not subject a normal knife to. It has been sharpened so many times, that at this point, it is a good 1/4 inch shorter than a normal PM2. And that's without tip damage.

[Wartstein]

Concerning the tip thing. I have never snapped the tip off on any of my Spyderco knives. And I am not shy about sticking a knife into wood, forced or thrown. Most of the tip damage in my cases (less than a handfull) have been at the very tip of the blade. More like the tip of the edge, not necessarily the stock, if that makes sense.

I don't see how a blade shape, comparing PM2 to Manix, or Stretch XL to Manix XL, makes any difference in this scenario. ...

With all due respect, but of course blade shape is one (of several!) factor(s) that influences tip strength:

If you look at the tips of your examples Stretch XL and Manix on the flat of the blade (so not on edge or spine) the leaf shape blade Manix has an more obtuse and thus sturdier angle at the tip than the pointier Stretch XL tip.

Actually Sal himself has said that altering the blade shape of Endura and Delica by giving them that "drop" towards the tip (and so, like with a leaf shape tip, making it more obtuse by this) was explicitly to make the tip stronger and less likely to snap on this models.

[JoviAl]

1. what type of use do you consider "hard use" for a folder, and when is a fixed blade a better option?
Hard use for me is when I introduce shock loads, impacts or torquing elements into my tasks. I always opt for a fixed blade for ‘hard use’ tasks.

2. what type of "hard use" do you expect your folder to be able to withstand, and can your hands withstand the same work?
None at all - I wouldn’t willingly brutalise a folder when I always have a fixed blade on me for these rougher tasks. Regarding my hands I don’t generally wear gloves unless it’s a pair of cut gloves when I’m using a machete or billhook near my fingers. I actually reserve my folders for tasks that need a fresh razor edge, whereas my fixed blades are often blunt by lunchtime.

3. is "hard use" a factor of force, time, or a combination of the two?
For me it’s a factor of force - I use my knives for hours at a time solidly, regardless of whether they’re fixed or folders.

4. how often do you actually use your knife hard, based on your definition of "hard use"?
Daily Monday to Friday at work.

5. do you think your definition of "hard use" is realistic?
I think so. Short of purposely trying to break knives I couldn’t conceive of a harder use for them that isn’t absurd or wildly inappropriate and would better suit a different tool.

[RustyIron]

i see a lot of people talk about hard use on this forum, and i'm guilty of it myself.

I'm not "guilty" of anything. If a manufacturer sells me a knife that can't hold up to the tasks I require of it, then he is guilty of peddling junk.

what type of use do you consider "hard use" for a folder,

In the yard, hard use is hacking through thick branches when I'm too lazy to get a proper cutting tool. Cutting wire is hard use. Shaving down electrical contacts is also hard use. So is shaving down other soft metals. Cutting against a hard surface and jimmying door locks is more "abuse" than "hard use." Nevertheless, sometimes that needs to be done.

and when is a fixed blade a better option?

I don't carry a fixed blade. If I have to walk over to a tool box to get a fixed blade, I might as well get the proper tool for the job. So my fixed blades see less hard use than my pocket-dwelling folders.

can your hands withstand the same work?

Yeah. I work with my hands at work and at play. When people talk about rough scales, sharp edges, and hot spots, I can't relate. If my hand is becoming uncomfortable from putting pressure on the knife, there's a risk of breaking the knife, and I need to dial it back and come up with a new plan. Breaking a knife through excessive force seems very dangerous and foolhardy.

[kennethsime]

The first, and most common “hard use” task I can think of is cutting through thick, heavy corrugated cardboard. Like nasty-thick, where some force will be used. Next is zip ties, and pallet straps. The only other ”hard use” thing I can think of that I actually do with a folder sometimes is carving with the tip, or prying a bit with the tip (which I generally don’t do).

In the first scenario, I would value a well-contoured handle - think Shaman. In the next few, a robust tip will suffice - again, the Shaman does well here.

I think a fixed blade is better suited to any task where I might consider hitting something with my knife. Lopping off small branches, batoning, or real prying. I also prefer a fixed blade for long working sessions, like an hour’s worth of cardboard breakdown. This is because my fixed blades are usually smoother, better-contoured, and stronger.

My closing thought is that “hard use” gets thrown around a bit too much, and is essentially meaningless. Great questions, LB.

[Evil D]

The first, and most common “hard use” task I can think of is cutting through thick, heavy corrugated cardboard. Like nasty-thick, where some force will be used.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to cut through one of these gaylord boxes. Your understanding of blade geometry heightens really quick.

[Bemo]

Nice example David, thanks for the pic!

[JSumm]

Looks like a job for the Chaparral.

[gooeytek]

My folders never get used hard or abused. They will get used a lot, however, for hours at a time. Stripping insulation off wire, cutting wire, trimming/notching wood, sheetrock, plastic, zip ties, bait, netting, fishing line, plants/saplings, boxes, card stock, opening boxes/packages, feed bags/sacks, lemons, limes, bamboo skewers, etc. I don't consider that hard use. That's what the knives are built for.

If I need to pry anything apart, baton, process wood, clear foliage, loosen a screw, I have fixed blades, hatchets, machetes, and other tools for that.

[Evil D]

Looks like a job for the Chaparral.

It really depends on how you want to cut it and how the end result needs to turn out, meaning if you want clean square cuts like you're going to use the pieces for something afterwards, you almost have to use a razor utility blade because cutting these at a straight 90 degree angle to the board is practically impossible with any pocket knife because the blade wedges so hard. If you just want it broke down for trash or recycling you can cut them at a 45 degree angle to the board and get through them with just about any knife, albeit with varying degrees of struggling.

[Cl1ff]

Is a BBB laser 0.006 bte, high hardness steel, hunting knife a “hard use” knife or is it precisely designed for a niche intended purpose?

Is a 4V or MagnaCut “bushcraft knife” a “hard use” knife because it is designed to process wood?

Is a Spyderco Whale Rescue a “hard use” knife because it was purposely designed to literally rescue giant whales?

Is a box cutter a “hard use” knife because it excels at breaking down even the gnarliest cardboard boxes better than most pocket knives?

Example after example of this sort and it just shows there’s not really this mythical “hard use” thing.

All of those knives are doing different things that could each be found in a discussion about hard use, but the reality is that those uses aren’t actually hard for the knives meant to do it.

Those tasks are easy, and should be easy or efficient, with the respective knife meant to fill that niche. You can’t say you are “hard using” a knife meant to baton wood by batoning wood with it.

That’s my take.

At the very least, I don’t think “hard use” is a useful description of any task or knife.

[tcarltonw]

I'm a firm believer in that there is a tool for every job. As a landscaper I'm not going to prune a shrub with lopers when I have a motorized hedge trimmer, not going to fell a tree with an ax when I have a chainsaw, split wood/branches with a knife when I have an ax/hatchet, etc. The hardest use my knives see is probably whittling or cleaning animals. This all gets thrown out the window of course if I go into something unprepared bc I always have atleast one knife on me and if it's all I have then it's going to be used up to the point where it's just stupid to do so. I can understand if someone doesn't want to invest in other tools when they can just carry/own a knife. Just not my school of thought.

[kennethsime]

The first, and most common “hard use” task I can think of is cutting through thick, heavy corrugated cardboard. Like nasty-thick, where some force will be used.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to cut through one of these gaylord boxes. Your understanding of blade geometry heightens really quick.

I used to work at a grocery store, and every summer we'd get watermelons in boxes like this (in fall, pumpkins). If you ever wanted to make a kid happy (or a homeless guy), man these are sturdy. We just flattened them by stomping on them and then threw them in the compactor.

[aicolainen]

The first, and most common “hard use” task I can think of is cutting through thick, heavy corrugated cardboard. Like nasty-thick, where some force will be used. Next is zip ties, and pallet straps. The only other ”hard use” thing I can think of that I actually do with a folder sometimes is carving with the tip, or prying a bit with the tip (which I generally don’t do).
8< ----
8< ----
I also prefer a fixed blade for long working sessions, like an hour’s worth of cardboard breakdown.

I hardly ever need to cut cardboard. At work we have a cardboard compressing machine, so no need at all there. At home I may need to cut some, on rare occasions, to make them fit in the recycling bin. You can't be on a knife related forum without coming across this type of use being mentioned very regularly, so there is obviously a need for folders that can handle this type of work, but it's not a need I recognize. And believe me, I can detect "need" at very low concentrations and very willingly accept that as justification :)

Anyways, zip ties and pallet straps are what I'm trying to get to. This stuff is very relevant to me and while its not my primary use case, it's probably the main reason I've settled on a wharnie for my EDC. With a screaming sharp DF2 wharnie in k390 I can take care of most zip ties and pallet straps without it feeling like I'm stretching the capabilities of the knife. The tip will most often slide under the zip tie/strap without the need of any twisting motion and the slicy geometry and leverage from the shape of the spine take care of the rest. I've used more "hard use" knives with more robust tips and blade stock for these tasks in the past, and it's just very awkward and you run a big risk of damaging the cables (which is what I'm most often trying to liberate).
My PE wharnie is really good for this, but I think a serrated hawkbill would be even better. In fact I already have incidental data to support this from occasionally using my SE HB Ladybug. Another non hard use folder that works surprisingly well at this stuff. Unfortunately I need PE for other tasks and there just aren't as many PE HBs around in the models I prefer to carry for EDC/work.
Keep in mind, all of this is very small scale planned work or the occasional stuff that wasn't really planned, which is the objective of my EDC tools. If I know I'll be cutting lots of zip ties or very heavy duty zip ties, I'll bring a suitable side cutter. And this really harkens back to LB's question regarding time/duration vs intensity/force. I probably didn't make this connection when I wrote my first answer, but it really is both. It isn't necessarily that the knife can't handle lots of zip ties or the heavy duty ones, but at that point where reduced suitability isn't made up for by the convenient access, it's just not an attractive solution anymore.

My closing thought is that “hard use” gets thrown around a bit too much, and is essentially meaningless. Great questions, LB.

Agreed. And a good summary!

To throw in some closing thoughts myself, I think the biggest risk of hard use or even abuse is the tasks you (or at least I) didn't plan for.
The great thing about a folding knife, that enables it to continually justify the precious space it takes up in my pocket, is its versatility. There's a couple of things it does very well, a lot of things it isn't ideal for and even more that it's simply not suited for. And the fact that it's right there in your pocket and most other tools are not, sometimes tempt us (at least me) to push it into roles it wasn't meant for. This temptation is what ultimately made me realize there could be a need for something like a prybar, and that this genre of tools wasn't just a pocket jewelry fad. On face value it seemed like a very unnecessary tool, but it proved so easy to carry and so cheap (at least it can be). So even if I hardly use it even once a month, it regularly saves me from temptation and is well worth the expense and pocket space. Or wallet space, in my case.

all my pocket tools on a typical work day

[Enactive]

I agree that the term gets used a lot but doesn't add clarity.

To have meaningful discussion about knife use, it seems best to just be specific about the tasks you are performing and how the knife and edge performed and if any damage occurred.

TBH, I often tune out when I read the phrase. I generally seek specifs over generalities.

[bearfacedkiller]

Pocket knives are multi tools in reality. They aren’t designed for a specific purpose usually and are expected to do anything you might need a knife for. That means different things to different people depending on what their job or hobbies are.

I consider hard use to be something that can cause damage to the knife. If the damage renders the knife unusable then it was probably abuse. Things like scratches, corrosion and light edge damage are just wear and tear and are the result of normal use. Spyderco’s are expensive and we are knife geeks. I think a lot of them get babied for that reason. Most of what I see from the online knife community is cutting apples, opening packages and trimming threads. I would consider that light use.

I have been known to do all of the above.

[Evil D]

I think I'm guilty of having the "what if" mentality, maybe even moreso than most. Some of it has to do with jobs I've done but also I just think there's no such thing as over preparing. My sweet spot is around 3mm with a reasonably thin blade grind, so it slices most things well up until blade stock thickness becomes an issue and in most steels 3mm is plenty strong enough for a folder.

[Wartstein]

I think I'm guilty of having the "what if" mentality, maybe even moreso than most. Some of it has to do with jobs I've done but also I just think there's no such thing as over preparing. My sweet spot is around 3mm with a reasonably thin blade grind, so it slices most things well up until blade stock thickness becomes an issue and in most steels 3mm is plenty strong enough for a folder.

This.

And as I´ve said already: For me thinner bladed folders actually can be BETTER suited for "hard use" (whatever that might be exactly), cause they require less force to cut through matter (not as "wedgy" as thicker blades) - this can transfer to less stress for the whole construction, less having to grip the handle tight and so on.

And I stand by it: Where a bit more robustness might matter indeed in "hard use" is the tip, but not necessarily the whole blade stock. So not too thick blade, but a bit more robust tip makes for a good "hard use" folder imo.

Just coming from my own experience, and what I roughly define as folder (!) hard use.

[Evil D]

I think I'm guilty of having the "what if" mentality, maybe even moreso than most. Some of it has to do with jobs I've done but also I just think there's no such thing as over preparing. My sweet spot is around 3mm with a reasonably thin blade grind, so it slices most things well up until blade stock thickness becomes an issue and in most steels 3mm is plenty strong enough for a folder.

This.

And as I´ve said already: For me thinner bladed folders actually can be BETTER suited for "hard use" (whatever that might be exactly), cause they require less force to cut through matter (not as "wedgy" as thicker blades) - this can transfer to less stress for the whole construction, less having to grip the handle tight and so on.

And I stand by it: Where a bit more robustness might matter indeed in "hard use" is the tip, but not necessarily the whole blade stock. So not too thick blade, but a bit more robust tip makes for a good "hard use" folder imo.

Just coming from my own experience, and what I roughly define as folder (!) hard use.

Well, remember that lock/pivot strength also increases and decreases with thickness, so while a thin blade will require less force to cut rigid material, the pivot also takes less force to break. The best balance here is with a thicker blade stock ground thinner or a custom regrind. This way you retain the strength of thicker blade stock and lock contact area at the pivot but have a higher performance slicing blade.