New Spyderco Paysan CQI: defective & disappointing

[sal]

Hi Perhaps,

I'm sorry for your disappointment.

Does the lock stick when opened slowly until engagement? No flicking.

sal

[Perhaps_OCD?]

Hi Perhaps,

I'm sorry for your disappointment.

Does the lock stick when opened slowly until engagement? No flicking.

sal

Hey Sal, it sticks no matter how it’s opened. I recommend watching the video I made for you in the first post. For your awareness, I’ve kept my (admittedly harsh) criticism to this forum and that video. However, it looks like people on Reddit (much higher visibility) aren’t so happy either. In that thread multiple people, and your vendors confirm this is a wide spread issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/knifeclub/comm ... ame=iossmf

[Fireman]

So none of your Spyderco frame locks work properly?
I would honestly like to know more.

All of the knives work. However, I don't for a second think the majority of us knife nerds are looking for something that "just works". Its why we aren't carrying a Kershaw from the local Walmart. (not picking on you, just responding to the 'its a tool' crowed that pretends sprint runs are for batoning wood / denys these are items people buy because they're nice)

None of the Spyderco frame locks I've had have been without lock stick or lock rock. I have had probably 30 ZT's, 10 or so Kizers, and 5 WE's for comparison. Not a single one of those brands have had lock stick or lock rock. Some have had detent issues, but that's the thing. On those knives I could bend the lock bar left and right to my hearts content (increase or decrease the tang contact and detent pressure) and no matter what I did to that lock bar, it engaged properly on the tang without stick or rock.

That's because those companies have figured out how to eliminate back and forth lock bar play and (most importantly) get the geometry of the contact surfaces right. It's an R&D / engineering problem Spyderco simply hasn't mastered. Without getting too technical, it's kind of visible in the amateurish nature of the Paysan & Spydie chef's lock bar design. A long and thin little sliver of a bar isn't exactly a recipe for ensuring the tip of that bar lands on the blade tang consistently and properly.

I love my Spydiechef and use it almost daily. I have had zero issues with mine but if you are not satisfied, Spyderco has an amazing return policy and they stand behind their products. I would send mine in for a replacement or repair before I complain on a public forum. Sorry you had issues, Did you send your problem knife in?

Did you miss the part where I did send it in for warranty, waited 3.5 years, and got a defective knife back? Spyderco's "amazing warranty" is to sell all of the sprints or high demand knives they make, and not hold any back for exchanges. They've told me this themselves. Note: good vendors make up for their negligence by keeping their own reserves.

I'll definitely be sending this one in, but I don't expect them to be able to send back a proper replacement. I'll ask for $920 in store credit this time. MSRP to MSRP

Do you have a similar priced frame lock to compare the spydie chef to? Maybe my curse is having good frame locks to compare it with.

Sorry, I missed that part. I have a handful of titanium frame locks including the Paysan. My Spydiechef was purchased at the Spyderco Outlet store about a year ago, so it’s one of the newer ones. If Spyderco is willing to repair, replace or refund, that’s pretty good. Sadly, negative posts will outnumber positive posts from customers, so it may seem overstated the unhappy vs the happy customers. Decades of a successful knife company must mean something right is going on there in Golden.

[sal]

Hi Perhaps,

I'll call your thread to the attention of the factory. Most of our knives require some break in time, but if you say all of our knives have lock stick or lock rock, why would you continue to purchase them?

sal

[harpo1]

Hi Perhaps,

I'm sorry for your disappointment.

Does the lock stick when opened slowly until engagement? No flicking.

sal

Hey Sal, it sticks no matter how it’s opened. I recommend watching the video I made for you in the first post. For your awareness, I’ve kept my (admittedly harsh) criticism to this forum and that video. However, it looks like people on Reddit (much higher visibility) aren’t so happy either. In that thread multiple people, and your vendors confirm this is a wide spread issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/knifeclub/comm ... ame=iossmf

That thread has four people saying they had lock stick. I did to but like I said earlier cleaning the oil off the tang and making sure I didn't press straight down on the lock bar fixed the issue. Now it works perfectly fine.

[Fireman]

OCD. Part of the knife hobby joy I get is sharpening and modding. YMMV but I rarely leave a knife as a it comes from the factory and do my own tune ups. You can find many youtube videos on tuning up knives and there are plenty of people who would be willing to tune it for your liking at a price. Anecdotally, my Paysan is rock solid and a bit of lock stick that I am sure will right itself with some use.

[jalcon]

if you say all of our knives have lock stick or lock rock, why would you continue to purchase them?

Lol...this is exactly my question as well. It's either exaggeration or doesn't make alot of sense....

[Perhaps_OCD?]

Hi Perhaps,

I'll call your thread to the attention of the factory. Most of our knives require some break in time, but if you say all of our knives have lock stick or lock rock, why would you continue to purchase them?

sal

I never said all of your knives. I specifically said frame locks. I haven't continued to purchase frame locks, the last was the Paysan I'm just now getting back 3.5 years later. Over those 3.5 years I've purchased probably 40 compression locks, 20 lock backs, and a few ball locks. Those are great.

Where your company misses the mark, repeatedly, is on frame locks. The fact that your most expensive and nicest looking knives (Narvana, Drunken, Paysan, etc) are made with the locking mechanism your company is obviously the worst with (out of all the lock types you sell) isnt' very cool. The fact that you've gone to the trouble of inventing 3-4 different lock types, that are superior a frame lock (a lock type that came out before your first popular knife), shows you also don't really believe frame locks are the best.

I know it's more cost effective, your foreign vendors appreciate the simplicity, your collab designers are like "hey I know that lock type", and the margins are nice... but you're trying to sell a Ferrari with steering from a cheap Kia. I'm suggesting you stop doing that. Maybe... put one of the good 4-5 lock mechs you invented in your expensive knives; if you can't get frame locks right over years of CQI. Image a true flagship Spyderco: button compression lock, super exotic steel (save s90v for $200 sprints), custom collab design, hefty milled contoured handle. Oh man. I'd drop $1k on that

In the meantime, I'll continue to buy what you're good at making: ~150-$300 PM2's, Delicas, Polices, Native series, Yojimbo', shamans, Manex's, and the OG japanise line. I'm also looking forward to buying all the Military 2 sprints and exclusives that drop.

[Fireman]

“Defective” knife? Seems a bit extreme. Spyderco bends over backwards not to send out defective knives. Personally, I would have called or emailed the outlet store and got it sorted out. The world has been a crazy place the last couple years for manufacturers. May I suggest that you sell it for about double your investment on the secondary and get a knife that is to your liking

[sal]

Hi Perhaps,

I guess the first queston we need to discuss internally is whether or not our RIL's (we call them Reeve Integral Locks) have this problem after they're broken in, which they will need to be. We build them to be used with very close tolerances, so in general, time and use "settles" them in.

I have sent the link of this thread to management, so they can be "in the loop".

While I've designed a few RIL's, I generally prefer other locks for my designs. When a knife-maker / collaborator designs the knife with a RIL, that's the way we build it. We try to honor their design as closely as we can. Cost is rarely a factor in our selection of a lock type. Some of our locks are quite expensive to make.

I could be wrong, but it seems like you are more of a high end knife collector than a user. Which I can appreciate. I have quite a few high end knives that I collect and don't use much. Most of our knives are made to be able to function well for a long time in use. Yes we do make some high end knives, and frankly, we do well with them. I would suggest that you open and close it a few hundred times and break it in.

Another option would be to just get your money back or sell it. Our higher end models are usually in demand. Then, as you said, don't purchase any more of our RIL's.

sal

[mikey177]

I have 14 models from Spyderco with the RIL. Of these, only the Spydiechef had slight lockstick when new. It has since smoothed out, and functions as it should.

All of these knives get used, even the more expensive ones, and none of them have exhibited lock rock.

I do hope the OP finds a suitable resolution to his concerns.

[kennbr34]

I have never seen a complaint that I agreed so much with, but had such little sympathy for. It's amazing what a bad attitude can do.

That said, it's pretty hard to defend this. You shouldn't have to break-in a $1000 knife.

[R100]

I only have two RILs, the Spydiechef and the Brouwer, but they have both had a lot of use and function perfectly. It's not my favourite lock type but I can't see how these two could be better. Not dismissing the OP's concerns but I don't think you can say ALL Spyderco framelocks are poorly executed.

Dan

[JRinFL]

A surprising number of those who have responded seem to not be able to separate the message from the messenger. It's an important life skill. Attacking the messenger does not change the message.

As @kennbr34 says above, no one should need to break-in a near $1000 knife. It should come as near perfection that $1000 can bring and be ready to go right out of the box. No excuses accepted. On top of that, the OP waited 3.5 years for the replacement. You would think someone at Spyderco would have confirmed that this one was top quality before shipping it.

[wrdwrght]

A surprising number of those who have responded seem to not be able to separate the message from the messenger. It's an important life skill. Attacking the messenger does not change the message.

Shunning a narcissist is perfectly reasonable wherever, as here, the medium is the message.

If the topic is worthy, take it up in a new thread. Keeping the topic going in the same thread feeds the troll.

I submit that recognizing this unique problem is also a life skill.

[Perhaps_OCD?]

Hi Perhaps,

I guess the first queston we need to discuss internally is whether or not our RIL's (we call them Reeve Integral Locks) have this problem after they're broken in, which they will need to be. We build them to be used with very close tolerances, so in general, time and use "settles" them in.

I have sent the link of this thread to management, so they can be "in the loop".

While I've designed a few RIL's, I generally prefer other locks for my designs. When a knife-maker / collaborator designs the knife with a RIL, that's the way we build it. We try to honor their design as closely as we can. Cost is rarely a factor in our selection of a lock type. Some of our locks are quite expensive to make.

I could be wrong, but it seems like you are more of a high end knife collector than a user. Which I can appreciate. I have quite a few high end knives that I collect and don't use much. Most of our knives are made to be able to function well for a long time in use. Yes we do make some high end knives, and frankly, we do well with them. I would suggest that you open and close it a few hundred times and break it in.

Another option would be to just get your money back or sell it. Our higher end models are usually in demand. Then, as you said, don't purchase any more of our RIL's.

sal

Sal,

Been playing with the knife since I got it. I work from home, sit in my office, and fidget with knives in meetings all day. I am a collector, but the knives in my display cases quickly see a lifetime of mechanical use from me fidgeting. lol. I've worn out / broken many omega springs on Benchmades. Your compression lock is a work of art, never had one fail; and any minor stick on them do indeed work themselves out.

I'm almost positive this is not something that'll smooth out tho. I can visibly see the misshaped tang ramp. I've tuned my fair share of RIL's, this feels like it might need some stoning. I'm not comfortable tuning such an expensive knife.

Here's my proposal. I'll cycle this thing ~1000 times over the next week. If it still sticks after that, will you personally take a look at it? I would love a Paysan with a smooth lock, and the rest of this specific Paysan is flawless. The blade grinds and symmetry is the best I've seen on a production knife (and I have a loooot).

[Josh Crutchley]

Ok I can't tell if you guys are serious do you really need to break-in a R.I.L. with hundreds of openings and closings? Never owned a knife that needed break-in so it's kinda surprising if true.

[Mushroom]

We all know no one is paying MSRP for this knife. It’s disingenuous to imply that too but it sure helps make the argument sound more dramatic when it’s referred to by that price though. For all intents and purposes, this is not a $1000 knife. (Unless you’re dumb enough to buy it at the secondary market markup price)

Still, I agree that a $460/$644 knife should not require hundreds of openings just to break it in. I’ve handled some factory seconds with horrendous lock stick but my experience with buying and owning RIL’s from Spyderco is the complete opposite of the OP’s. I own a large handful of RIL knives from Spyderco and they all work great, exactly as expected. That includes Nirvana, Paysan, Drunken, Stovepipe, etc.

If I received a Paysan with as much lock stick as OP displayed, I wouldn’t be happy about it either. I also wouldn’t have made a thread or video like this but I digress. None the less, it is perfectly understandable why the OP would be upset after receiving the example they did. It is unacceptable, in my opinion. As much as I would’ve expected the knife to function flawlessly out of box, I would also expect Spyderco’s warranty and repair department to be accommodating in this situation.

It is important to not act so entitled though, even if you did buy one of their most expensive products. It’s difficult to receive that type of attitude with positivity. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

[Perhaps_OCD?]

We all know no one is paying MSRP for this knife. It’s disingenuous to imply that too but it sure helps make the argument sound more dramatic when it’s referred to by that price though. For all intents and purposes, this is not a $1000 knife. (Unless you’re dumb enough to buy it at the secondary market markup price)

Still, I agree that a $460/$644 knife should not require hundreds of openings just to break it in. I’ve handled some factory seconds with horrendous lock stick but my experience with buying and owning RIL’s from Spyderco is the complete opposite of the OP’s. I own a large handful of RIL knives from Spyderco and they all work great, exactly as expected. That includes Nirvana, Paysan, Drunken, Stovepipe, etc.

If I received a Paysan with as much lock stick as OP displayed, I wouldn’t be happy about it either. I also wouldn’t have made a thread or video like this but I digress. None the less, it is perfectly understandable why the OP would be upset after receiving the example they did. It is unacceptable, in my opinion. As much as I would’ve expected the knife to function flawlessly out of box, I would also expect Spyderco’s warranty and repair department to be accommodating in this situation.

It is important to not act so entitled though, even if you did buy one of their most expensive products. It’s difficult to receive that type of attitude with positivity. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

This knife IS the accommodation from the warranty & repair department. I sent my original Paysan in 3.5 years ago for lock issues, and finally got this one as a replacement. I do feel I'm entitled to a better customer experience than a 3.5 year wait (with no proactive communication) for another screwed up knife.

[TomahawkT10]

It's an interesting ongoing saga with this knife. Obviously a really nice design, but that lock bar keeps on having issues it seems. Also with the spoon clip, not sure i could add this to the collection. It deserves a matching Ti clip for sure like the Stovepipe has... Does the Spydiechef still have lock-stick issues or have the more recent runs been ok?