Delica conundrum

[ekastanis]

About the dimensions changed to get thinner geometry with full flats on blades with the same stock thickness. All that happens is a reduction of the primary grind angle. The grind tapers the blade spine, steeply at the plunge and gradually on the way out to the tip.

For example, the Bow River’s spine thickness is about 1/8 of an inch, but no part of the spine above the edge is that full thickness because the full flat’s angle is small enough to thin the whole blade. You can go however thin you want like this.

I also suspect that the laminates are probably made to slightly thinner stock originally and it’s not that Spyderco just chooses to make them thinner (stock), if they are.

If you reduce the primary grind angle keeping blade stock thickness and edge bevel angle the same, you end up with a different blade height. I think your suspicion of thinner blade stock is most likely correct.

[ASmitty]

I'm probably the odd man out in this conversation. I actually prefer the saber ground Delica to the FFG. Currently in my pocket is the slate blue D4 in ZDP-189 (the original run before they went to the BRG).

[Manixguy@1994]

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting.

How does the KnifeJoy 20CV drop point Delica compare to the VG-10 and K390 bte? Stain resistance is more important to me given the light cutting tasks required, but more slicey is more nice. : -)
https://www.knifejoy.com/products/copys ... f575&_ss=r

That is a valid question about the KnifeJoy Delica. I’m happy with with the Delica in the two steels I have , in ZDP189 and VG10 . MG2

[WyoJon]

Buy yourself a sabre ground manix 2. That will cure you of thinking a delica blade is thick. I reallyy dont see the issue here. I like thin blades, and find the delica and endura are much thinner than most blades from any competing nanufacturer. My 531 benchmade is the only one coming to mind thinner as a folder. Most mainstream knives you see out there, the kershaws, the bucks, the company that makes baby toys, a lot of benchmade designs, are all significantly thicker. As a guy who only buys thin blades i have never found myself wishing my endura had a thinner blade. Maybe try reprofiling to 12° or so, polish that and then sharpen at 15 or 20 on the sharp maker?

Read my post. We are talking thickness behind the edge here.

Outside of the kitchen, what knife have you seen that is significantly thinner anywhere on the blade than the delica? Since the edge bevel on a delica is 15 degrees, drop down to 10 or 12 and it will remove quite a bit of steel behind the edge for a considerable ways.

Some hollow ground knives are very thin right behind the edge, it tends to not matter though because at some point the metal widens at the spine. It seems the angle taken to the spine matters more than small bits of metal behind the edge.

Youll find sharpening technique will make a much bigger difference for slicing cuts. While a low sharpening angle will give you a very shavy edge, try bumping your microbevel up a bit to maybe 15-25° per side. Also look into convex primary bevels, there are a lot of physics at play in the realm of sharpening. Finishing on a much finer stone will give your edge considerably less drag as well.

[elena86]

Buy yourself a sabre ground manix 2. That will cure you of thinking a delica blade is thick. I reallyy dont see the issue here. I like thin blades, and find the delica and endura are much thinner than most blades from any competing nanufacturer. My 531 benchmade is the only one coming to mind thinner as a folder. Most mainstream knives you see out there, the kershaws, the bucks, the company that makes baby toys, a lot of benchmade designs, are all significantly thicker. As a guy who only buys thin blades i have never found myself wishing my endura had a thinner blade. Maybe try reprofiling to 12° or so, polish that and then sharpen at 15 or 20 on the sharp maker?

Read my post. We are talking thickness behind the edge here.

Outside of the kitchen, what knife have you seen that is significantly thinner anywhere on the blade than the delica? Since the edge bevel on a delica is 15 degrees, drop down to 10 or 12 and it will remove quite a bit of steel behind the edge for a considerable ways.

Some hollow ground knives are very thin right behind the edge, it tends to not matter though because at some point the metal widens at the spine. It seems the angle taken to the spine matters more than small bits of metal behind the edge.

All my Urbans ! Oh, and the blade stock on the Urban is thicker !

P:S Most Delicas are not sharpened at 15 dps ... at least 17 dps from the factory. My M390 Delica came at 15 dps and is 0.029'' bte.

[WyoJon]

Buy yourself a sabre ground manix 2. That will cure you of thinking a delica blade is thick. I reallyy dont see the issue here. I like thin blades, and find the delica and endura are much thinner than most blades from any competing nanufacturer. My 531 benchmade is the only one coming to mind thinner as a folder. Most mainstream knives you see out there, the kershaws, the bucks, the company that makes baby toys, a lot of benchmade designs, are all significantly thicker. As a guy who only buys thin blades i have never found myself wishing my endura had a thinner blade. Maybe try reprofiling to 12° or so, polish that and then sharpen at 15 or 20 on the sharp maker?

Read my post. We are talking thickness behind the edge here.

Outside of the kitchen, what knife have you seen that is significantly thinner anywhere on the blade than the delica? Since the edge bevel on a delica is 15 degrees, drop down to 10 or 12 and it will remove quite a bit of steel behind the edge for a considerable ways.

Some hollow ground knives are very thin right behind the edge, it tends to not matter though because at some point the metal widens at the spine. It seems the angle taken to the spine matters more than small bits of metal behind the edge.

All my Urbans ! Oh, and the blade stock on the Urban is thicker !

What are you intending to use this knife for? More information on that would be better for understanding what sharpening profile would be more efficient for your needs.

[elena86]

Read my post. We are talking thickness behind the edge here.

Outside of the kitchen, what knife have you seen that is significantly thinner anywhere on the blade than the delica? Since the edge bevel on a delica is 15 degrees, drop down to 10 or 12 and it will remove quite a bit of steel behind the edge for a considerable ways.

Some hollow ground knives are very thin right behind the edge, it tends to not matter though because at some point the metal widens at the spine. It seems the angle taken to the spine matters more than small bits of metal behind the edge.

All my Urbans ! Oh, and the blade stock on the Urban is thicker !

What are you intending to use this knife for? More information on that would be better for understanding what sharpening profile would be more efficient for your needs.

Sharpening profile ? Exactly like the my k390 Delica( 16 dps and 0.018'' bte ). Oranges to oranges ...

[WyoJon]

What are you trying to make this knife do?

[Sharp Guy]

I have at least 10 Delicas. Many are laminate, a few are not. The BTE measurement seems to vary a little between all of them. It does seem like the unlaminated ones (2-VG10 + 2 Cruwear) are a tiny bit thicker BTE but not enough for me to worry about. They all cut well. Life's too short

[Drubieg]

I’d say learn to regrind. I had the same squabbles about what I wanted in a knife and wished they made what I wanted until I just decided I’d do the changes myself. I reground my wharncliffe k390 endela pretty quickly and easily and now it slices like a champ. Reprofiled the blade shape, dyed the scales, and ground the jimping off.. also replaced the frn backspacer with steel and it’s exactly what I want. Worth all the effort.

[cabfrank]

There is supposed to be a high performance model with thinner bladestock coming sometime in the not too distant future. It may fit the bill. I have a Whancliffe SE that I consider a fantastic cutter, but I would like to try one anyway, whenever they are available.

[Enactive]

I’d say learn to regrind. I had the same squabbles about what I wanted in a knife and wished they made what I wanted until I just decided I’d do the changes myself. I reground my wharncliffe k390 endela pretty quickly and easily and now it slices like a champ. Reprofiled the blade shape, dyed the scales, and ground the jimping off.. also replaced the frn backspacer with steel and it’s exactly what I want. Worth all the effort.

Sounds cool! I'm especially interested in the steel backspacer. Any pics?

What stones did you use for the regrind? Or belt sander?

[Scandi Grind]

Oh yeah, I'm interested how you did this too, Drubieg. I would have to think you used a belt grinder, but I have been trying to figure out how I can get better slicing performance out of my knives just using stones, since that is all I've got.

[Makunochimaster]

if the delica is thick, then buy a chaparral, but...
native i like more of 3", it is more comfortable in hand
p.s. my delica 204p edge ≈0,5mm

[Cl1ff]

About the dimensions changed to get thinner geometry with full flats on blades with the same stock thickness. All that happens is a reduction of the primary grind angle. The grind tapers the blade spine, steeply at the plunge and gradually on the way out to the tip.

For example, the Bow River’s spine thickness is about 1/8 of an inch, but no part of the spine above the edge is that full thickness because the full flat’s angle is small enough to thin the whole blade. You can go however thin you want like this.

I also suspect that the laminates are probably made to slightly thinner stock originally and it’s not that Spyderco just chooses to make them thinner (stock), if they are.

If you reduce the primary grind angle keeping blade stock thickness and edge bevel angle the same, you end up with a different blade height. I think your suspicion of thinner blade stock is most likely correct.

The point is you’re grinding it thinner than the original stock thickness.
The tang stays the original stock or 0.09 or 0.125 or whatever on whichever knife. The full flat, by nature, removes material from the sides of the blade even up to, but actually a bit beyond, the spine. When you look at a Delica’s spine you can see the slight plunge on the spine.
So the dimensional change is just reducing the full flat’s angle. I guess this technically is a reduction of stock thickness, but it’s a result of reducing the grinds angles, and only affects the ground part of the blade.

With the Laminates, specifically, according to the OP, they are slightly thinner stock. I interpreted this to refer to the unground portion of the blade and hypothesized it may be due the different processes involved in making the laminate. Said process could feasibly result in it being supplied to Spyderco with slightly thinner stock than other available steels.

However, it’s possible the OP was referring to the ground portion of the blade with reduced stock resulting from some variation in the angles of the full flat grind, which is inevitable in large scale production of knives (in this case the grind being a thinner inclusive angle, thus reducing the spine above the ground portion of the blade more than typical).

This thread is full of misconceptions and misunderstandings and really highlights the issue of using clear and consistent terminology, or defining exactly is what meant when you say “stock thickness” or “edge angle”. Like where and how you measured it, to reduce inconsistencies and make the data or discussions more meaningful and accurate.

I can’t claim to be perfect at this, but my comment would be much longer if I tried to clear up every inconsistency and bring nuance to some of the statements in this thread.

It makes me realize how big of a task Spyderco is taking on by catering to enthusiasts and being willing try thinner geometries in a variety of grinds. Huge thank you for that, and for continuing to consider to our requests to keep going with it.

[Drubieg]

I’ll post some pics of my regrind tomorrow in the daylight. I used a belt grinder and I took the flats down to reduce stick thickness… the final result was an edge bevel about half the size of what it was before. Sorry no caliper dimensions for you, but real world experience and use is worth something

[Makunochimaster]

Endura zdp-189 edge is much thinner than vg-10 too

[PaloArt]

I love the Delica. I tried them all, I go back and forth but at the end of the day I have to admit... Delica is probably the most iconic 3 incher edc spydie and best seller for a reason. It's almost perfect as it is, at least for and in my hand...but ...there is a big ''but''…

I am with you on this one. Quite recently I purchased Spyderco Chaparral and that little beast pushed out of pocket my 8 years old Opinel No.7 that I carried purely for BTE thickness and impressive cutting performance. Delica and Para 3 LW are now collecting dust as Para just doesn’t cut and Delica is unnecessarily thick BTE........

Never measured the thickness behind the edge on a Delica - but if thick or not, when I directly compared a VGF10 ffg Delica to a Para 3 LW: To me very noticeable how much better the Delica performs in most cutting tasks while still having a plenty strong blade. Also overall just a better design for me personally (perhaps because they actually scaled down most aspects from Endura to Delica (in a way a "Lil Endura"),, while with the Para 3 they kept the thick PM2 bladestock, also pretty much the handle dimensions except lengthwise and so on).

Chap is great anyway, though I actually DID measure the thickness behind the edge on that one once and it was thicker than I tought (can´t recall the number anymore and misplaced my calipers).

Don`t get me wrong, I love my Delicas (1996 Gen2 SS SE and Gen 4 ffg) and it is extremely well performing knife, lock rock aside, but I just wish it was ground more thin. Perhaps side note but if someone brakes\damages 3 inch blade that has purely cutting tool purpose I would say someone abused it. Frankly I never broke or heavily chipped one single blade in my life as I always used correct tool for the job and I am talking about some pretty thin blades like Opinel No.6 in both Inox and Carbon steel. I would say Delica might benefit in terms of cutting performance from thinner grind at the same blade thickness but I am not knifemaker nor metalurgist therefore I do not know if for example VG10 would not be too fragile with thinner grind. I have to agree with Elena, that I would prefer to have Delica with thinner grind. On the other hand there is quite a wide range of knives to choose from and one does not have to be limited with just Delica, which on the other hand I love from ergonomical and aesthetical point of view.

[Wartstein]

Never measured the thickness behind the edge on a Delica - but if thick or not, when I directly compared a VGF10 ffg Delica to a Para 3 LW: To me very noticeable how much better the Delica performs in most cutting tasks while still having a plenty strong blade. Also overall just a better design for me personally (perhaps because they actually scaled down most aspects from Endura to Delica (in a way a "Lil Endura"),, while with the Para 3 they kept the thick PM2 bladestock, also pretty much the handle dimensions except lengthwise and so on).

Chap is great anyway, though I actually DID measure the thickness behind the edge on that one once and it was thicker than I tought (can´t recall the number anymore and misplaced my calipers).

Don`t get me wrong, I love my Delicas (1996 Gen2 SS SE and Gen 4 ffg) and it is extremely well performing knife, lock rock aside, but I just wish it was ground more thin. Perhaps side note but if someone brakes\damages 3 inch blade that has purely cutting tool purpose I would say someone abused it. Frankly I never broke or heavily chipped one single blade in my life as I always used correct tool for the job and I am talking about some pretty thin blades like Opinel No.6 in both Inox and Carbon steel. I would say Delica might benefit in terms of cutting performance from thinner grind at the same blade thickness but I am not knifemaker nor metalurgist therefore I do not know if for example VG10 would not be too fragile with thinner grind. I have to agree with Elena, that I would prefer to have Delica with thinner grind. On the other hand there is quite a wide range of knives to choose from and one does not have to be limited with just Delica, which on the other hand I love from ergonomical and aesthetical point of view.

I'd be not opposed at all to the Delica getting an even thinner grind!! Would make it even better-er ... just saying that is already a lot better performing than a Para 3 for me.

And thin blades generally?

Well, I am the guy who calls the Chap a hard use folder, and that after a lot of experience with it (so I actually tested what it can take...)

[WyoJon]

What are you wanting this knife to do, specifically, that needs to be thinner than the factory grind?