It's All About The Heat Treat

[kennethsime]

Is it just me, or did we all suddenly become metallurgists? Not just here on the forum, but it seems that all throughout the knife world people are expressing more and more interest in obtaining a knife with a "proper heat treat."

What is a "proper heat treat," you ask? I sure couldn't tell you. At best, it seems most of us knife geeks (with some notable exceptions, of course) can equate "proper heat treat" with having a really high Rockwell rating. This ignorance, ironically, doesn't stop us from declaring that SliceCo definitely has the best heat treats, whereas DiceCo definitely has no idea what they're doing, and should probably just stop producing knives. Who cares if they did 100 Million dollars in revenue last year?

I realize the crux of the issue here - I think. When Spyderco put 440V in the Military, it was the only knife on the market using CPM steel. When I was getting to knives, there were only a handful of companies using S30V. If you could get a knife with that steel, you knew you had something really good on your hands.

Nowadays, not only is everybody and their Mom putting out knives in S30V, but Chinese companies like CJRB are even developing their own powdered steels. Bohler is making a proprietary batch of M390 just for Microtech. When everybody looks just like you do, you try to find ways to stand out - whether that's by actually innovating, or by throwing out red herrings left + right.

I would posit that while some companies like Spyderco are undoubtedly pushing the envelope, the majority of reputable knife companies are doing just fine with their heat treats. Heck, I bet most of them are sent out to third parties anyway.

Sure, mistakes happen - sometimes even the best of us miss the mark. But if you believe the pundits, there are a ton of people working in the knife industry who know less about heat treating their knives than some anonymous internet troll who read the first three paragraphs of an article on knifesteelnerds.com. No shade to Larrin, btw.

So, what do you think?

• Are the pundits really on to something?
• Are there companies you stay away from because you know their heat treats to be milquetoast?
• Did you read a few paragraphs on KnifeSteelNerds and suddenly find yourself qualified to write technical documentation for a steel foundry?

Discuss.

[Evil D]

I just hope people are actually learning more about it. The last thing the hobby needs is a bunch of keyboard experts claiming bad heat treat just because they chipped a blade cutting up their Monster energy drink can.

[kennbr34]

I think the interesting thing about heat treatment is it's one of the few things that we as consumers don't have a lot of information about now. I mean, now when consumers can become more and more informed about the intricacies of steel composition and geometry, it's very easy to look at Blade A and say, with accuracy, how it will perform compared to Blade B. Gone are the days that you could produce fear, uncertainty and doubt about Blade A because it was only listed as "stainless steel" because now the industry knows the consumer wants to know what steel it is, what the dimensions and geometry are, etc. Even when companies don't necessarily provide that information, any average Joe with a pair of calipers can document it for the rest of us.

Comparatively, heat treatment is still kind of the "black box" of knife manufacturing. We don't know what one company does or what one does not, and beyond that, the equipment needed to document the results of the heat treatment aren't really as accessible as a pair of calipers. So in other words, while there's a lot of average Joes that can measure a knife with some calipers and provide a lot of crowd sourced info, there's really not many who will have the equipment to document hardness, grain structure, etc. It would be akin to if manufacturers didn't start telling us what kind of steel they used, and instead the only way an average consumer would know is if someone with a fancy XRF machine analyzed it.

To me it speaks more to the psychology of consumers and why they feel the need to creat FUD. In my opinion, it's not hard to figure out what the motivation is when someone who spent beaucoup bucks on a knife starts seeing lots of very similar ones for way less money. Naturally, they're going to want to feel like they didn't overpay, so they'll start applying the, "You get what you pay for," ideology and search for a way to cast doubt on the cheap stuff. Casting aspersions at the heat treatment is one of the few areas left to do that with, and it's a great one because it's pretty difficult to prove that a blade's heat treatment isn't subpart. Not only that, but there's a lot of very convincing and logical reasons to assume a company may have cut corners.

I think a shining example of all this is how D2 has become so much more popular in budget blades. It wasn't too long ago that D2 was a fairly premium steel that didn't get produced in a lot of budget knives, but then it suddenly became much more common and the very first thing people did was throw shade at the heat treatment. "Why would you assume that some Chinese company actually spent the money to do a good heat treat? If they spent the money it really cost it would be reflected in the price." And there's not really a very good argument to make against that, other than to suggest that perhaps the high price of other knives in D2 didn't actually have anything to do with manufacturing costs, but perhaps reflected other types of value. Or more simply put, people who spent a lot of money on a D2 blade may have been paying more for the brand name than the steel or a proper heat treatment.

What I think really muddies the water further is that people will then try to make comparisons about one company's heat treatment versus the others, by some type of testing that fails to control for other variables. So someone might go take one companies drop-point folder in D2, and another company's, and then go abuse the crap out of them. Then if one chips, they'll look at the grain structure through a loupe and conclude the heat treatment wasn't good. Yet, through all of that, there's generally inconsistencies; one knife has different geometry, maybe one is harder than the other, the test methods themselves weren't consistent, and perhaps all of those are true. And the opposite happens too, where consumers will attribute a knife performing well to its heat treat, when it could be more to do with some other factor.

For me personally, I don't really pay much attention to the "x company's heat treat sucks" when the comparisons are obviously made without even an attempt to control for other factors. I hear it more often as just some anecdotal thing. "This knife I had with S30V never held an edge/would chip out, but not the other one," and so then they chalk that up to heat treatment without any mention of other factors, the context of use, etc.

What I will pay attention to are companies that get praise for their heat treatment by custom makers who use the same heat treatment services and do actually test extensively. For example, you can get your custom knives heat treated by Paul Bos, who is the same guy who developed the heat treatment for Buck knives. So when custom makers who actually DO have all the correct equipment and methodology to test heat treatment quality say that his service is one of the best, then that gives me good reason to believe Buck's heat treatment of some steel is very good. I wouldn't necessarily extend that logic to assume that some budget oriented Chinese company's heat treatment isn't any good, but in the absence of evidence I would assume a Buck's is better.

Anyway I rambled a bit, but yeah my overall theory is that it's just one of the few aspects of knife manufacturing left that companies keep consumers in the dark about. So in the absence of that information and the absence of dependable ways to verify it, it makes it really easy to spread FUD about it.

[Brock O Lee]

When I buy a knife, I don't want to be underwhelmed by the steel's performance. In other words, I want a good steel with a good heat treatment.

I knew a lot less about steels and heat treatments 10+ years ago when I bought my first Spyderco than today. All I knew then was that I wanted a knife with "proper" performance. Spyderco was one of the few companies at the time who had a good reputation in that regard, from what I could see. That may have changed in the last decade though... The internet brought a lot of knife testing out in the open, so people are more informed these days.

Spyderco continues to push the boundaries of steel variety and performance. I appreciate that. They have earnt my trust over the years, and the fact that they are self-proclaimed steel junkies adds to their credibility. I don't have the money to chase all the new company's and their products, so I stick with who I trust.

[Foehammer]

I just hope people are actually learning more about it. The last thing the hobby needs is a bunch of keyboard experts claiming bad heat treat just because they chipped a blade cutting up their Monster energy drink can.

[WilliamMunny]

I think what makes this hobby difficult is that there is so many variables when it comes to a knife and what determines its performance. Some of these factors include:

1. Blade Material
2. Blade Shape
3. Heat Treat
4. Edge Geometry
5. Factory Edge Quality
6. Sharpening Method (Freehand vs Fixed Angle)
7. Type of Sharpening Stones Used
8. High Grit or Low Grit Final Stone
9. Cutting Technique
10. Etc.
11. Etc.

So, when an armature or even seasoned knife user gets a knife that is not performing well, they have to pick one of the above for a reason. Or it could be a combination of any of the above. I think people blame the heat treatment because it is one of the things they can't measure or have control over. You can control the blade material, shape, edge geometry, sharpening method, etc; but you cannot change or control the heat treatment. So, if everything else is equal it can be easy to blame the heat treatment even if they don't know what is bad about it.

Now I am not saying it is correct or people like me know more, but it is one of the variables that can't be controlled or adjusted by the end user.

[ZrowsN1s]

I just hope people are actually learning more about it. The last thing the hobby needs is a bunch of keyboard experts claiming bad heat treat just because they chipped a blade cutting up their Monster energy drink can.

Unfortunately this will happen. But, it has to start somewhere. I went through the same thing when I learned about HRC. Then I was Edgeucated that HRC is only 'part' of the picture. People will get a lot wrong at first. But we have a growing number of people in the community who will help to gently correct them. People need to be interested in knowing before they can actually learning anything useful about something as esoteric as heat treatments and steel. At least people are getting interested.

[electro-static]

Is it just me, or did we all suddenly become metallurgists? Not just here on the forum, but it seems that all throughout the knife world people are expressing more and more interest in obtaining a knife with a "proper heat treat."

What is a "proper heat treat," you ask? I sure couldn't tell you. At best, it seems most of us knife geeks (with some notable exceptions, of course) can equate "proper heat treat" with having a really high Rockwell rating. This ignorance, ironically, doesn't stop us from declaring that SliceCo definitely has the best heat treats, whereas DiceCo definitely has no idea what they're doing, and should probably just stop producing knives. Who cares if they did 100 Million dollars in revenue last year?

I realize the crux of the issue here - I think. When Spyderco put 440V in the Military, it was the only knife on the market using CPM steel. When I was getting to knives, there were only a handful of companies using S30V. If you could get a knife with that steel, you knew you had something really good on your hands.

Nowadays, not only is everybody and their Mom putting out knives in S30V, but Chinese companies like CJRB are even developing their own powdered steels. Bohler is making a proprietary batch of M390 just for Microtech. When everybody looks just like you do, you try to find ways to stand out - whether that's by actually innovating, or by throwing out red herrings left + right.

I would posit that while some companies like Spyderco are undoubtedly pushing the envelope, the majority of reputable knife companies are doing just fine with their heat treats. Heck, I bet most of them are sent out to third parties anyway.

Sure, mistakes happen - sometimes even the best of us miss the mark. But if you believe the pundits, there are a ton of people working in the knife industry who know less about heat treating their knives than some anonymous internet troll who read the first three paragraphs of an article on knifesteelnerds.com. No shade to Larrin, btw.

So, what do you think?

• Are the pundits really on to something?
• Are there companies you stay away from because you know their heat treats to be milquetoast?
• Did you read a few paragraphs on KnifeSteelNerds and suddenly find yourself qualified to write technical documentation for a steel foundry?

Discuss.

I think you have it backwards, people are noticing differences in performance for the same steels, and metallurgists are explaining why. That is why people are focusing in HT now.

I think that it’s a natural evolution of four factors:

1) The widespread proliferation of steels that used to be considered “premium” at attainable price point, meaning a normal person can obtain multiple samples. (D2, M390, and the S30V family all being examples).

2) The highly variable performance of said steels as backyard scientists on social media cut test multiple samples of knives with the same steels..

3) People who buy premium steels wanting the best performance associated with those steels (essentially to get the premium the pay for when they buy a knife in that steel) and taking said testing results into account.

4) feedback from hand sharpeners who notice the difference in HT when sharpening.

I’d say that the focus on HT is a good thing, the quality of knives these day is heads and shoulders above what it was even 15 years ago, and part of that is definitely the focus on materials.

[Steeltoez83]

I have my own parameters of evaluating heat treat. Anecdotally how long for the edge to blunt is the easiest to try. Then determining how the steel establishes slicing aggression at the apex with coarse grit finishes. Spydercos s35vn is the best I've seen in the s35vn I've tried. How well does the burr break off, some steels are more resilient which is a sign of retaining austinite. I disregard any damage in the first 3 edges as user error not steel. Lately in my edge retention testing I'm establishing a performance base. And a percentage of how well the edge bounces back with stropping parameters. I have no testing for corrosion/rust. I personally just buff some chapstick on my knives and I have had no problems. I might just be lucky. I may have a personal bias towards how a certain company processes a certain steel over another company. Every knife I buy is a gamble bcuz I have gotten lemons and gems in the past. And tomorrow holds no promise either. The more I use a steel the more I can identify the little nuances in terms of performance.

[RustyIron]

Is it just me, or did we all suddenly become metallurgists?

Sure, I've heated steel to cherry red and dropped it in a can of oil. I also read one of Larrin's articles. Where do I go to claim my "Certified Metallurgist" pin?

What gets me is how all these companies can charge big money to test the heat treatment of materials, when all their customers need to do is go out back and cut some rope and whittle some sticks.


“I don't know what's the matter with people: they don't learn by understanding, they learn by some other way — by rote or something. Their knowledge is so fragile!”
― Richard Feynman

[WilliamMunny]

Is it just me, or did we all suddenly become metallurgists?

Sure, I've heated steel to cherry red and dropped it in a can of oil. I also read one of Larrin's articles. Where do I go to claim my "Certified Metallurgist" pin?

What gets me is how all these companies can charge big money to test the heat treatment of materials, when all their customers need to do is go out back and cut some rope and whittle some sticks.


“I don't know what's the matter with people: they don't learn by understanding, they learn by some other way — by rote or something. Their knowledge is so fragile!”
― Richard Feynman

I hate to say it, but run all the fancy tests you want, when it comes down to it all that matters is how it performs for some random person doing random backyard/camping choirs.

[James Y]

TBH, almost all of the technical metallurgy/HT stuff discussed on knife forums goes way over my head. I simply like what I enjoy cutting with and resharpening. At this point in my life, I have no need to use most steels to their maximum potential. I'm sure there are knife users who do, and that is great.

Anyway, carry on...



Jim

[Mushroom]

"These are dangerous times. Never have so many people had access to so much knowledge, and yet been so resistant to learning anything."

— Tom Nichols, The Death of Expertise

With access to google, anyone online can be a self proclaimed “expert.” Or in this case, a “metallurgist.”

[wrdwrght]

My wife cooks a lot of stuff from Half-Baked Harvest. Rarely is a recipe less than 25 ingredients! We often talk about the ingredients as we feast, and feast we do.

But we’re not feasting on raw food…

My point is that some of us here are finally recognizing that the many steel recipes we experience have been cooked, and that Spyderco is among the best at getting the right heat-treat.

The ingredients of course are necessary but they are not sufficient. And after heat-treats, there comes geometry, where again Spyderco is magical…

In the final analysis, we here are becoming more aware of steel (thank you, Sal) but more INEXPERT as we do.

Where I have tried to develop some expertise is at trying to capture the ghost at my user’s edge.

And, here, knowing about baked-in carbides, and the challenges they present to my abrasives, is evidently essential. 15V’s carbides are said to be daunting. BBB says they need more aggressive abrasives than I have...

[GarageBoy]

I think what makes this hobby difficult is that there is so many variables when it comes to a knife and what determines its performance. Some of these factors include:

1. Blade Material
2. Blade Shape
3. Heat Treat
4. Edge Geometry
5. Factory Edge Quality
6. Sharpening Method (Freehand vs Fixed Angle)
7. Type of Sharpening Stones Used
8. High Grit or Low Grit Final Stone
9. Cutting Technique
10. Etc.
11. Etc.

So, when an armature or even seasoned knife user gets a knife that is not performing well, they have to pick one of the above for a reason. Or it could be a combination of any of the above. I think people blame the heat treatment because it is one of the things they can't measure or have control over. You can control the blade material, shape, edge geometry, sharpening method, etc; but you cannot change or control the heat treatment. So, if everything else is equal it can be easy to blame the heat treatment even if they don't know what is bad about it.

Now I am not saying it is correct or people like me know more, but it is one of the variables that can't be controlled or adjusted by the end user.

Yeah, also now lots of people are also equating higher hardness with better heat treat. I get wanting higher hardness for potentially better wear resistance and performance, but just because the hrc is high doesn't mean it's done properly. I notice this more on kitchen knife forums

[Stuart Ackerman]

Any heat treatable steel sold to anyone should have HT specs with it.
It is in the steel company's interest to sell more steel and the "stuff" associated with it.

When I worked at a specialised steel company, anyone could ask for the HT specs, and we would give it to them, but the corect application of the HT for most folks was out of their reach, like special furnaces and retorts.
We would then HT the steel depending on thiei requirements, such as HRC hardnesses etc.

That said, we would "tweak" the HT specs based on personal experence based on the company's many years of trial and error.

For example, my Serratas were done using the generally accepted 440C HT formula, with just one "tweak" which i requested, after a little trial and error.

As Sal has said, the steel is the heart of the knife, BUT the heat treatment is the soul...

[sidpost]

1. Blade Material
2. Blade Shape
3. Heat Treat
4. Edge Geometry
5. Factory Edge Quality
6. Sharpening Method (Freehand vs Fixed Angle)
7. Type of Sharpening Stones Used
8. High Grit or Low Grit Final Stone
9. Cutting Technique
10. Etc.
11. Etc.

So, when an armature or even seasoned knife user gets a knife that is not performing well, they have to pick one of the above for a reason. Or it could be a combination of any of the above. I think people blame the heat treatment because it is one of the things they can't measure or have control over.

In my case, I had a Benchmade tanto folder in ATS-34 that rusted and was really brittle. I am by no means an expert but, I'd say the heat treat process was flawed on that knife.

Then there is the Newt Livesay 1095 "Wicked Knife" model which is more rust resistant than some entry-level stainless knives I have had. I'm guessing it is something related to the heat treat and quench process affecting the grain structure on the surface. That knife was really impressive in its day for a relatively modest price, second hand for me at ~$70.

[Stuart Ackerman]

In the 1990's, ATS-34 was released with a bad batch, and reacted like yours, Sidpost.
A lot of South African knifemakers got together and bought a bulk order in sheets.
They had to remake knives that were sub-standard.
Pitting all over the blades and rusting along the edge were common.

I never used ATS-34, so I was okay with my customers. :)

[Bolster]

Is it just me, or did we all suddenly become metallurgists? ...

Did you read a few paragraphs on KnifeSteelNerds and suddenly find yourself qualified to write technical documentation for a steel foundry?

Such a great post!

Answers: Yes, and yes. The event of KnifeSteelNerds has taken me from a know-nothing schlub who thought 440C was awesome, to a highly educated steel critic that can find fault with K390 (it's not tough enough).

And the transformation happened really fast!

[kennethsime]

This is one of my least favorite moments from the recent Shot Show footage. I had COVID this week, so maybe I just spent too much time on YouTube, but here it is anyway. The relevant section starts at 14:50 or so.



I believe that CJ Buck has used at least a handful of knives in S35VN, and I get that Buck Knives differentiates in part by having Paul Bos handle their heat treats.

Then we have Dallas, who's stoked to compliment CJ on Buck's S35VN heat treat. Again, I'm sure Dallas has used at least a handful of knives in S35VN, but by his comments you'd think he was sitting in the room with Paul Bos while the latest batch of Alpha Hunters were being done, giving him a big ole' nod + wink.

I assume that Buck does a pretty good job, because they're still in business, but that's about all I can say (even after reading the latest KSN article on the matter). How do I know if Buck followed Niagara's HT recipe, Larrin's recipe, of if Paul came up with a better one? And how do I know which one of these heat treats is the most "good-to-go", so that I can go around on the internet trashing anyone who used the wrong recipe?

Are any of you guys (besides Larrin, BBB, and the actual knife makers amongst us) sitting around on Saturday afternoon testing blades from different manufacturers, or different heat treat batches, and evaluating for things like toughness, wear, and corrosion resistance?

I'm not. Maybe I just don't take the hobby seriously enough, but I'm absolutely happy to leave this one to the experts.