upgraded steels for less popular models

[ladybug93]

i know this has been discussed here before but i think it's a real shame to see great knife designs fade away without ever being offered in anything but vg10 or s30v. i know these steels are perfectly capable and geared toward a wider variety of daily users than the steel snobs you typically find on knife forums, but those people do google searches just like everyone else.

hear me out... if i do a google search on the rockjumper, i'm going to find a bunch of comments about it not having a good blade to handle ratio (which is just silly to me) and about it only being offered in vg10 or about waiting for a better steel. if spyderco were to keep the vg10 in the lineup at the lower cost and add something like k390 (personally, i'd like to see salts too, but i know that typically means different molds are required), there would likely be a lot more positive commentary about the knife online, thereby selling more of each steel offering.

i'm not saying get rid of the more beginner-friendly steels. i'm just saying instead of sending a model straight to the disco list, giving it a chance for more of the people that will actually talk about it to experience the design and sing it's praises.

and before everyone says you need to just buy it in vg10 or s30v if you want it in another steel... if this forum is really only a small amount of spyderco's customer base, us not buying them is not the problem, except that maybe it means we're not selling them with our commentary.

if the delica came out today in vg10 only, would it's sales really warrant the addition of so many other versions? nothing against the delica at all, but i doubt it. the rockjumper is a preferred model for me over the delica due to it's more neutral ergos, but it's sales are likely going to send it to the disco list (at least that's the impression i get from sal's comments) instead of getting another steel, which means i'll probably end up with a k390 or lc200n delica wharncliffe instead because i'd rather have either of those steels in a design i like less than vg10 in a design i like more.

just some thoughts.

[JSumm]

I think those are good thoughts. I would love to see the Leaf Jumper in K390 quick like. I do think the Rock Jumper may suffer from Wharncliffe blues too. It is a little polarizing in it looks (not functionality). I believe the Wharncliffe market size is smaller. The Leaf Jumper, to your point should quickly see some K390 at least. Hopefully in 2023, some Dealers will even grab it for some exclusives. As much as I love the Endura and Endela, I think the Leaf Jumper is less polarizing in the ergos. I would guess (don't know) that the Stretch 2 in K390 was a success.

[ladybug93]

I think those are good thoughts. I would love to see the Leaf Jumper in K390 quick like. I do think the Rock Jumper may suffer from Wharncliffe blues too. It is a little polarizing in it looks (not functionality). I believe the Wharncliffe market size is smaller. The Leaf Jumper, to your point should quickly see some K390 at least. Hopefully in 2023, some Dealers will even grab it for some exclusives. As much as I love the Endura and Endela, I think the Leaf Jumper is less polarizing in the ergos. I would guess (don't know) that the Stretch 2 in K390 was a success.

i agree that the wharncliffe is polarizing, but it's become popular enough for the delica to have multiple other steels as regular production offerings, and the yojimbo and yojumbo are clearly popular as well. even the mcbee seems to be getting love.

i really think the low sales of the rockjumper come more from it getting less attention because its another vg10/frn knife from seki rather than the blade shape. i think it's a great design.


this really wasn't supposed to be a rockjumper thread... that was just the example i used because it's immediate and i know there are people wishing for it in a different steel. similar reasoning could be used about some discontinued models too though. the manix backlock comes to mind as one people were surprised to see get discontinued while they waited around for steels other than s30v. the manix is a proven design and it still didn't make it.

the point is that, while these steels are perfectly fine, you have to get people excited about the design and talking about the design for it to sell. i want a rockjumper and regularly forget it exists because no one is talking about it.

[mikey177]

I might be in the minority here, but I personally put design and aesthetics over steel type when I decide on buying a knife.

I passed on buying a Watu for years even if was offered in 20CV as it took me a long time to warm up to its radical looks.

I bought the Astute even if it only came in 8Cr13, as most of my knives never see any extensive daily cutting activity anyway.

Even talking about other brands, I pass on a lot of the newer ZT models that come in premium steels because none of them appeal to me visually.

I agree though that more people might buy a certain model if it was offered with different steel types. That is something that Spyderco needs to evaluate as regards cost and potential benefit.

[ladybug93]

I might be in the minority here, but I personally put design and aesthetics over steel type when I decide on buying a knife.

I passed on buying a Watu for years even if was offered in 20CV as it took me a long time to warm up to its radical looks.

I bought the Astute even if it only came in 8Cr13, as most of my knives never see any extensive daily cutting activity anyway.

Even talking about other brands, I pass on a lot of the newer ZT models that come in premium steels because none of them appeal to me visually.

I agree though that more people might buy a certain model if it was offered with different steel types. That is something that Spyderco needs to evaluate as regards cost and potential benefit.

for sure. aesthetics are important to a degree. i don't think there is anything less attractive about the rockjumper versus the delica or endela wharncliffe though, except the delica looks better closed, in my opinion. do you find the rockjumper less pleasing to the eye? i think it would be far superior in hand at least.

[Bolster]

...and before everyone says you need to just buy it in vg10 or s30v...

And you KNOW that's going to happen; it's the standard response: "VG10 is a great steel." Etc. But as you look around the marketplace, you see a lot of PM steels being offered (and to be fair, as you imply, Spyderco does offer the newer PM super-steels in exclusives and sprints and most-popular models). I suspect the knife-buying niche of the marketplace has become a LOT more steel-conscious in the past decade...I know I have...there's so much more information now available on steels. So it'll be a challenge for Spyderco to chase the ever-changing customer base as it becomes ever more steel-selective.

My own stance is that a knife would absolutely have to blow me away, to buy it in VG10 (or S30V). I've been impatiently waiting for the LW Caly to debut, but if it comes out in VG10, I'll be: "Uh...think I'll take a gamble that it'll be available as a sprint or exclusive in a different steel."

I wish that Spyderco would make more use of their new "house steel," the SPY27. (I am curious if its cobalt content makes it difficult to source--I've been reading that the Chinese are in the process of cornering the cobalt market.)

[RustyIron]

if spyderco were to keep the vg10 in the lineup at the lower cost and add something like k390 (personally, i'd like to see salts too, but i know that typically means different molds are required), there would likely be a lot more positive commentary about the knife online, thereby selling more of each steel offering.

Maybe...
If there's a knife that looks interesting, but it comes in a steel that doesn't intrigue me, I'll pass on it. Don't blame me, it's not my fault. It's Sal's fault. Spyderco designs good knifes and uses interesting steel, so I don't have to settle for a knife that doesn't check all the boxes. And there are enough knives that do check all the boxes that I'm not left wanting if this season's models don't excite me.

An example of this is the Stretch 2 XL. That's a COOL looking knife. When it came out, the blade was a non-starter for me. But now that it's being done in Cru-Wear, it's really got my attention.

Another example is the 15v Manix. I was in no way interested in a Plain Jane Manix. But stick a slab of 15V in there, and I'm embarrassed to tell you how much time I spent in order to get one.

But those examples only apply to weirdos like you and me: Knife Geek Forum Trolls who won't be satisfied with the mundane. Do our opinions reflect those of Joe Sixpack who buys his knives at Big 5? Would the added expense of material and labor push him over to the Benchmade display? I certainly don't know. But maybe the Big Wigs smoking Cuban cigars and sipping bourbon in the boardroom at Spyderco really do have a handle on the best way to market knives.

[ladybug93]

...and before everyone says you need to just buy it in vg10 or s30v...

And you KNOW that's going to happen; it's the standard response: "VG10 is a great steel." Etc. But as you look around the marketplace, you see a lot of PM steels being offered (and to be fair, as you imply, Spyderco does offer the newer PM super-steels in exclusives and sprints and most-popular models). I suspect the knife-buying niche of the marketplace has become a LOT more steel-conscious in the past decade...I know I have...there's so much more information now available on steels. So it'll be a challenge for Spyderco to chase the ever-changing customer base as it becomes ever more steel-selective.

My own stance is that a knife would absolutely have to blow me away, to buy it in VG10 (or S30V).

even when bhq had the endura wharncliffe on sale for $40 recently, i didn't buy it because i really wanted that model in k390 instead of vg10 and if i bought it in vg10, that's $40 less to spend on knives and i'd be even less likely to be able to justify the k390 version of a knife i already had. i'm kicking myself for that decision a little right now, but i'm just not interested in vg10 when i already have a bunch of knives in that low-mid level of steel. and for models that come in lc200n, i'd rather buy that than vg10 too. if i'm going to have lower edge retention (which is perfectly fine for me and my uses) it might as well be a salt.

[ladybug93]

if spyderco were to keep the vg10 in the lineup at the lower cost and add something like k390 (personally, i'd like to see salts too, but i know that typically means different molds are required), there would likely be a lot more positive commentary about the knife online, thereby selling more of each steel offering.

Maybe...
If there's a knife that looks interesting, but it comes in a steel that doesn't intrigue me, I'll pass on it. Don't blame me, it's not my fault. It's Sal's fault. Spyderco designs good knifes and uses interesting steel, so I don't have to settle for a knife that doesn't check all the boxes. And there are enough knives that do check all the boxes that I'm not left wanting if this season's models don't excite me.

An example of this is the Stretch 2 XL. That's a COOL looking knife. When it came out, the blade was a non-starter for me. But now that it's being done in Cru-Wear, it's really got my attention.

Another example is the 15v Manix. I was in no way interested in a Plain Jane Manix. But stick a slab of 15V in there, and I'm embarrassed to tell you how much time I spent in order to get one.

But those examples only apply to weirdos like you and me: Knife Geek Forum Trolls who won't be satisfied with the mundane. Do our opinions reflect those of Joe Sixpack who buys his knives at Big 5? Would the added expense of material and labor push him over to the Benchmade display? I certainly don't know. But maybe the Big Wigs smoking Cuban cigars and sipping bourbon in the boardroom at Spyderco really do have a handle on the best way to market knives.

you didn't want a stretch xl. now you do. now you'll probably post about it. the more you post about it, the more others will notice it. the more others notice it, the more they will buy it. the more buy it, the more are talking about it. the more are talking about it, the more people buy it. that's my point. joe sixpack that buys a knife at big 5 isn't buying a spyderco. he's not even getting a tenacious there anymore, so we don't need to worry about him so much. but, a lot more people shop online these days. they can easily look up knives at the online retailers and see videos on youtube and see pictures on instagram and more pictures and discussions about the models on the forums. those people want to see other people excited about the knives to know if it's worth spending a little extra over the chinese knives flooding the market.

and when they come here and see that you didn't want a stretch xl until it had liners, g10, and cruwear, but that you love the knife, maybe they'll look and see that price is insane, but they can try vg10, which everyone says is fine and may be favorable for newer enthusiasts and they'll be happy to pay less for the vg10 model. that was my point.

[Bolster]

Do our opinions reflect those of Joe Sixpack who buys his knives at Big 5? Would the added expense of material and labor push him over to the Benchmade display? I certainly don't know...

Good points, all. But at Spyderco's round-hole prices, Joe Six who wants a knife for under $50 probably isn't Spyderco's target market. My guess is that there are a lot of steel mavens in Spyderco's target market.

[RustyIron]

now you'll probably post about it. the more you post about it, the more others will notice it. the more others notice it, the more they will buy it. the more buy it, the more are talking about it. the more are talking about it, the more people buy it.

Hmmm...
that sounds a lot like...

Social Media!!!!!

[mikey177]

for sure. aesthetics are important to a degree. i don't think there is anything less attractive about the rockjumper versus the delica or endela wharncliffe though, except the delica looks better closed, in my opinion. do you find the rockjumper less pleasing to the eye? i think it would be far superior in hand at least.

The Rockjumper looks okay to me. It just doesn't add anything over the wharnie Delica for me as I have small hands.

I did buy one last year as I feared it would be disco'd, but I still reach for the Delica more often because of its smaller closed profile.

[JSumm]

I wonder how the PM2 Crucarta and the new Stretch XL in Cruwear in G10 are changing the discussions within Spyderco? Take two great models and offer them in an upgraded package in the product line. Something everyone can get across the globe not being an exclusive here in the states. I imagine sales have been good with those two so far. I would definitely like to see that with other models. Doesn't have to be the same configuration, but some "upgraded" version in the product line.

[ladybug93]

now you'll probably post about it. the more you post about it, the more others will notice it. the more others notice it, the more they will buy it. the more buy it, the more are talking about it. the more are talking about it, the more people buy it.

Hmmm...
that sounds a lot like...

Social Media!!!!!

yes. of course. like it or not, everything we say here is searchable and used by people to make decisions. it's just the way it is. i came back to spyderco because i wanted a rust proof knife and ended up with a pacific salt. i stayed for many other models partially because of what i was reading and i really liked everything i ended up getting. you potentially sell spyderco knives with every positive word you put on this forum.

[Mushroom]

The Stretch 2 XL is such a great case sample for putting this to the test. It should be great for comparing how much material combo actually effects sales. They offer the FRN VG10 model at one end of the spectrum and G10 Cruwear at the other end. Which one will sell better?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with being a “steel junkie” but there are so many armchair experts these days that I just feel like “steel snobbery” has gotten a little bit out of hand.

[Bolster]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with being a “steel junkie” but there are so many armchair experts these days that I just feel like “steel snobbery” has gotten a little bit out of hand.

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing for companies that make and sell knives. Now there's one more sure-fire way to attract buyers.

For instance, imagine what upcoming Magnacut folders are going to do for Spyderco's sales volume.

[Chris_P_Bacon]

Sal has said he does reserve certain steels for dealers to commission for sprints. If a model doesn't get commissioned by one of those dealers within a certain time frame, maybe Sal should flash batch it before simply discontinuing it, I mean since the molds are already made.

However, I can see from a business stand point, if you're running at full capacity and can't even keep up with your production knives something may need to get discontinued. Undoubtedly the models reaping the lowest profit hit the chopping block, to make room for new models.

I don't know the answer. If there's enough chatter on this forum about a knife in a certain steel, dealers read and notice.

Would be nice to know which models are being considered for the chopping block ahead of time, so everyone could get one last request. But getting enough people here to agree on the model, the steel, and the color for a batch is very much like herding cats.

[sal]

Thanx Ladybug. Interesting discussion. I guess we could try to "squeeze in" a "Leaf Jumper" in K390 to test?

sal

[Chris_P_Bacon]

Wow Ladybug, looks like Sal just gave you the Golden Buzzer! no pun intended

[Mushroom]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with being a “steel junkie” but there are so many armchair experts these days that I just feel like “steel snobbery” has gotten a little bit out of hand.

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing for companies that make and sell knives. Now there's one more sure-fire way to attract buyers.

For instance, imagine what upcoming Magnacut folders are going to do for Spyderco's sales volume.

Generally, I agree, it’s not a bad thing for knife companies. Especially when the marketing of new steels can be used to their advantage.

To play devils advocate though, it can be a bad thing such as in the circumstances highlighted in this thread. There has been a handful of great knives that have suffered because they’re either VG10 or S30V. An unnecessary fate for some of those knives in my opinion.

———

The Rockjumper is potentially the best current example of a great design that might be suffering because of “steel snobbery.” Although I might personally attribute that to the wharncliffe blade shape before I’d blame the steel, surprisingly enough. As popular as wharncliffes have been over the past few years, they’re still kind of viewed as a specialized blade shape. I would venture to guess that if the Leafjumper came out first, sales would have been better than the Rockjumper has seen.